Comments on Ambassador Watch: Climb the Wall

"The death of Jesus was not a literal sacrifice in...

2008-09-03T13:42:00.000+12:00

"The death of Jesus was not a literal sacrifice in the sense of a religious, ritual slaying of a victim by a priest."

Cool! We meet in the middle in agreement on the above. :-)

"If it is to be a propitiation, it would have to b...

2008-09-02T02:17:00.000+12:00

"If it is to be a propitiation, it would have to be a sacrifice -- but no, not necessarily a literal one."

Early Christians believed essentially the same thing, Jared, only it was "not a literal sacrifice", full stop, period, nothing further.

Jared says,but God voluntarily expressed His super...

2008-08-31T10:52:00.000+12:00

Jared says,
but God voluntarily expressed His superabundant love for us in giving everything.
----

What? A mortal life? A mortal life that only "looked" mortal because "God incarnate" was really immortal anyway. So, what's the big deal?

"You obviously know nothing about what goes on in ...

2008-08-31T05:54:00.000+12:00

"You obviously know nothing about what goes on in the Worldwide Church of God. Why do you keep pretending that you do?"

I'm just going by what I see you spewing here, Larry; if you want me to change my mind on the church as it exists today, you need to stop parrotheading opinions the WCG was supposed to have done away with, after the death of Herbie.

"By definitiion a propitiation of boundless effect...

2008-08-31T03:40:00.000+12:00

"By definitiion a propitiation of boundless effect needs no additional sacrifice to atone for sin."

Doesn't need a first sacrifice either, Jared. Not a literal one, at any rate.

If it is to be a propitiation, it would have to be a sacrifice -- but no, not necessarily a literal one. The death of Jesus was not a literal sacrifice in the sense of a religious, ritual slaying of a victim by a priest.

So God incarnate sacrificed himself to himself to atone for a sin he pronounced himself so that himself would have to be sacrificed to atone for it.

Yeah, that makes sense.

No, it doesn't make any sense, but then your statement is a straw man. Christianity holds that God Incarnate's sacrifice was not offered to Himself, because of the distinction of Persons. Nor did God Incarnate pronounce the sin that was incurred by our first parents. Nor did Christ "have to be sacrificed" -- atonement would have taken much, much less, but God voluntarily expressed His superabundant love for us in giving everything.

Larry, Even Tkach doesn't know everything that's g...

2008-08-30T17:06:00.000+12:00

Larry,

Even Tkach doesn't know everything that's going on in the WCG. Not only that, he may not even care, if you looked at his last uninspiring, tiring video done with Weazel.

You think you know oh so much more about it. So far you haven't told us a thing we didn't already realize about the WCG. We can also say what we really think here, not something you can do in the WCG for very long.

Larry You don't need to eat the whole apple to kno...

2008-08-30T15:57:00.000+12:00

Larry

You don't need to eat the whole apple to know that it's rotten.

--- Bernard Shaw

Purple Hymnal, You obviously know nothing about...

2008-08-30T14:11:00.000+12:00

Purple Hymnal,
You obviously know nothing about what goes on in the Worldwide Church of God. Why do you keep pretending that you do?

"There actually is a Devil, who would like nothing...

2008-08-30T06:08:00.000+12:00

"There actually is a Devil, who would like nothing less than to make you miserable, bitter,"

Yup! And this Demiurge (or "Devil" if you like) is currently worshipped by all the Churches of God. Including, apparently, the Worldwide Church of God that claimed to have rejected the Demiurgic teachings and ways of its founder in 1994. Clearly not the case, if your endless screeds here are any indication, Larry.

You see you, Larry, are incontrovertible proof to all watching, that WCG has NOT changed its ways one single iota, for all the hypocritical lip-service they give to the cult-watch groups that they have.

The Worldwide Church of God still believes in BI, the Worldwide Church of God still worships its founder, Herbert W. Armstrong, and you, as a current professing member of the Worldwide Church of God, have proven this to us beyond all shadow of a doubt.

Somebody ought to send Junior and Weazell Larry's contact info; he's certainly not taking their clap-happy Sunday-keeping, BI-refuting, Herbie-downplaying protestantism very seriously at all........

"We are where we are because God Himself put us th...

2008-08-30T06:01:00.000+12:00

"We are where we are because God Himself put us there!"

I agree with this. Unfortunately, you are just as blind as the blind god you worship, to see what kind of god it actually is.....

"I am amazed that some folks here think of Herbert...

2008-08-30T05:59:00.000+12:00

"I am amazed that some folks here think of Herbert Armstrong as the devil incarnate."

Some folks do think this Larry, I've seen it mentioned elsewhere. Personally, I am inclined to disagree.

On the other hand the god Herbie demanded his tithe slaves worship, that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish entirely........

Hey Larry,You're allegedly a member of Junior's sh...

2008-08-30T05:54:00.000+12:00

Hey Larry,

You're allegedly a member of Junior's shiny-new-happy-Jebus-clappy WCG: You're supposed to think Herbie's the AntiChrist, too. Junior and Weazell and Kelly the Serpent certainly preach thus.

(Whoops bad analogy vis a vis Ron Kelly; the serpent was the hero not the villain in the mythology LOL.)

Better not let your pastard find out you still worship the Herbie and believe in BI, Larry! They'll show you to the door of the nearest splinter before you can say lickety-split 8-O

(Or will they? I maintain that our pal Larry here is absolute, unmitigated, living proof that Junior and Weazell's "the church that changed its stripes" story is more fecal matter than Larry accuses us of "flinging" about his idol. Hmmmm what was that about the 2nd commandment Larrykins??)

Anonymous(?),I am touched by your concern for my w...

2008-08-29T15:24:00.000+12:00

Anonymous(?),

I am touched by your concern for my welfare. But who said my "notions" about HWA were "predetermined"? You don't even know who I am. Furthermore, I am not "afraid" of anything. I am amazed that some folks here think of Herbert Armstrong as the devil incarnate. This is just ludicrous and laughable. (but some of you are actually serious)

Those of us (and now I will speak for others although I usually don't) in the Church of God are not there because of Herbert W. Armstrong. We are where we are because God Himself put us there!

To some of you, this sounds like heresy or foolishness. But it is the voice of reason, sanity, and truth that I speak with.

True Christians have ALWAYS been viewed as foolish, naive, deluded, deceived and crazy. That just goes with the job description.

I realize that I have probably not altered anyone's attitudes by the posts that I have left here. I did not expect to. But some of you really need an injection of a good dose of reality, and to understand that there are dissenting opinions based on tangible faith.

There actually is a Devil, who would like nothing less than to make you miserable, bitter, and to turn your heart away from Jesus Christ. You don't have to let that happen.

My Anon 1:38 post --I stand corrected again. One o...

2008-08-29T14:14:00.000+12:00

My Anon 1:38 post --

I stand corrected again. One of my students told me that the superficial is very important when deciding which institution of higher learning one chooses to attend.

And I thought it was the football team...

It reminds me of when I asked my mother how she chose the church we attended: Off-street parking...

Larry, I can't make from that whether yer for 'im ...

2008-08-29T11:17:00.000+12:00

Larry, I can't make from that whether yer for 'im or agin 'im. It's also hard to tell the ridiculous from the incredible.

If you don't like the s*t, git outta da s*thouse!

Hi Larry, you need to swallow your predetermined n...

2008-08-29T10:41:00.000+12:00

Hi Larry, you need to swallow your predetermined notions about HWA and read "The Tangled Web." Then read GG Rupperts works, which HWA stole/plagiarized. That's a FACT, not speculation or rumor.

But you are most likely too committed, too stubborn, and too afraid to even have a look. I warn you, you aren't going to like what you read, but read it you must! Your world will begin to spin upside down as you struggle through an incredibly painful process. It's awful to endure, but you'll see the reasons God put you through it more clearly later on.

You'll find everything you're not looking for right here. May God grant you the patience old friend:

http://www.exitsupportnetwork.com/mike_ep/exam/exam.htm

If the amount of ridiculous fecal material being s...

2008-08-29T02:35:00.000+12:00

If the amount of ridiculous fecal material being slung around about HWA gets any deeper on this board, I will have to get hip boots.

One thing that used to bother me, and probably tro...

2008-08-29T01:51:00.000+12:00

One thing that used to bother me, and probably troubles others with at least a toe in the door of a splinter is, If HWA was so (explitive of your choice) how is it that he revealed The Truth?

At the time, I answered that by one of Herb's stories in his imaginatively named autobiography. It was about the women who prayed for food, and some pranksters tossed a loaf of bread through her window. The moral was It came from God, but the Devil delivered it.

Since then, I was wised up to the "True Church", unique teachings and restored truths myths. But Herb's little story was a first step...

Bamboo --Before reading your post I got a phone ca...

2008-08-29T01:38:00.000+12:00

Bamboo --

Before reading your post I got a phone call from one of my former students, now doing postgraduate work at another university. We were comparing how our two institutions have gone through a landscape beautification project -- although at mine it was probably city/state funded and at hers the money and sweat of the students. She said the story was that the effort was to attract more students. What about academic quality? "We're not acredited, but our grounds are magnificent!"

Posted somewhere else recently stolen with permiss...

2008-08-28T18:43:00.000+12:00

Posted somewhere else recently stolen with permission.

Disney and Armstrong, Two competing views of the Future....
------------------------------

Went to Disneyland this weekend. My feet are blistered, but my daughter and her friend had a good time.

Disneyland reminds me of Ambassador College. Its so clean. So beautifully landscaped. Constantly re-cleaned and repainted. Impeccably maintained.

Walt Disney and Herbert Armstrong were contemporaries, Disney came from Missouri, Armstrong from the corn fields of Iowa. Both were very ambitious men at the dawn of the 20th century. Both men were preoccupied by the rapid rise in the inventions of mankind. Two very similar creative marketing geniuses but very different reactions to what they saw around them.

Walt Disney created war films to aid the allies efforts and made films mocking Hitler. Herbert Armstrong made radio shows and magazine articles saying Hitler was going to conquer America and enslave us all for our sins.

Walt Disney hired a brilliant German cartoonist named Ub Iwerks who created Mickey Mouse and made people laugh. Herbert Armstrong hired a brilliant satirical cartoonist from Mad Magazine, Basil Wolverton, and made children afraid of a future filled with storm trooping Germans .

Walt Disney saw a world of sadness and made a place for all people to be happy for a little while. Hebert Armstrong saw a world of sadness and told people what a sad world it was and made a beautiful place for himself to be happy. Herbert would of course invite selected students and heads of state in for dinner now and then, if they enhanced his prestige.

Walt Disney built theme parks about a possible beautiful future, he called one Tomorrow land, another Epcot. Herbert Armstrong spoke of a Wonderful World Tomorrow, which his tithe payers would one day run.

Walt Disney created a magic kingdom where all religions are welcome and people put aside their burdens for a little while. Herbert Armstrong told people to be afraid of magic, only his religion was welcome in his kingdom, and he gave his followers 3 tithes as burdens.

Two exceptional men, two different reactions to the human condition.

Welcome to the Tragic Kingdom!

Down the hereditary line, even grandson Mark has k...

2008-08-28T17:07:00.000+12:00

Down the hereditary line, even grandson Mark has kept HWA at a distance, only riding on his "prophetic accuracy".

After Spanky's eventual demise, we'll probably be talking about his continued stature in the LCG splinters to come. "For over 50 years, he warned the end was 3-5 (or was it 5-9) years away".

Re: Herbal splinters downplaying the Herb:I think ...

2008-08-28T16:05:00.000+12:00

Re: Herbal splinters downplaying the Herb:

I think it's because there is so incredibly much obviously bad about the Herbie, that the "herbieshit" might taint the reputation of the herbal splinter group.

So, they do things like make fakey efforts to say he made errors, or was "merely human", or don't mention him at all.

All the while, they are ALL ABOUT the Herbie.

At least some Herbie worshipers like Robert or Bent Boy Ariel have the guts to as much say they they worship the guy.

Other splintroids are less forthcoming about the facts of their love of the Herbal one.

I think it's a form of 'deceiving for God's sake', a badness that cult-indoctrinated people tend to think is ok.

'...I know the other groups will pounce on them as...

2008-08-28T03:59:00.000+12:00

'...I know the other groups will pounce on them as proof they aren't the one true church...'

Given the multiplicity of 'one true churches' still looking to 'God's apostle' - who do they recognize as his successor?

Bamboo Bends asked: "Can anyone else out there con...

2008-08-28T01:31:00.000+12:00

Bamboo Bends asked: "Can anyone else out there confirm this? Or is this perhaps just a localized phenomenon?"

I can't confirm it however, a family member of mine in the UCG (Hulme's version of it anyway) tells me much the same thing.

When are these folks going to realize that all they are accomplishing by staying, praying, and paying is to make a good living for those at the top?

None of their prophecies has ever happened, none of it ever will.

Jared Olar said... Adam sinned and death passed up...

2008-08-27T15:43:00.000+12:00

Jared Olar said...
Adam sinned and death passed upon all humanity because of it so that Jesus had to come and be murdered so that all might live.

So, who has to come and be murdered so that the sin of murdering Jesus can be removed from humanity?

No one. As Adam's sin had unlimited repercussions on the human race, so the infinite merit of the willing sacrifice of God Incarnate has unlimited effect on every human sin. By definitiion a propitiation of boundless effect needs no additional sacrifice to atone for sin. Recall as well that as He died, Jesus invoked the Father's mercy on His killers, since they were acting in ignorance. His sacrifice is perfect.

So God incarnate sacrificed himself to himself to atone for a sin he pronounced himself so that himself would have to be sacrificed to atone for it.

Yeah, that makes sense.