Comments on Ambassador Watch: The country cousins come a callin'

Thank you Loc for your kind words. I think my not ...

2007-12-05T01:15:00.000+13:00

Thank you Loc for your kind words. I think my not knowing anything about WCG save for articles before I arrived kept a boundry between myself and what I couldn't see about it too. How many ORU students loved the experience and yet knew Richard Roberts bought horses and stables for his kids and flew around in an jet? Nothing changes I guess.

Bob: You were the person that was bubbling underneath after a few years. I repressed much in the belief it wasn't so, I wasn't my business, I could do nothing about it or it would go away.

I can't say all the "Please use me in your work as you see fit" prayers ultimately worked out so good..but then life is not over :)

I also appreciate EVERY person on this site. How can we all of so many different backgrounds and experiences have the same experience or impressions? We can't. We are all on the same one path at different mile markers.

I believe Dennis began his sojourn at AC about a y...

2007-12-04T16:11:00.000+13:00

I believe Dennis began his sojourn at AC about a year after I got the boot. People who felt a "calling" absolutely amazed me. I can't say that I ever doubted their sincerity, it was just that in spite of fasting, prayer, and Bible Study, I really never felt anything. I believe that's what made me act out and do some pretty outrageous things on campus.

Now, here we are, about forty years after the fact, and we're reminiscing about those "callings" that I so envied. So, was it all live, or was it Memorex? My religious studies, and personal experiences have lead me to believe that everything about AC/WCG was totally bogus. So, it must be a real bummer for the zealous ones who were totally engulfed in it all, or "caught the vision" as it was described by top faculty members during the '60s.

I really wish that I had done more research during those days, and had been more historically and philosophically rooted. There was much disinformation being taught, but since this was coming from people supposedly acting in the valence of, and authority of, Jesus Christ, it was actually better for one's health and stability to pretend that what we were hearing was gospel truth. The students who followed that paradigm certainly were more successful in their AC careers.

I imagine that there were a great number of us whose talents and abilities really should have lead us to other educational channels. If you grew up in a WCG family, though, you only went to another college or university if you were turned down by AC.

The internet's a gas. It's so good to be able to compare notes with one's fellow travelers, in an effort to try to make sense of the experience. In the past few years, I've had more and better conversations with members of the old WCG ministry than I ever did as a member of the church. As nearly as I can tell, you gentlemen experienced the same BS as the rest of us, only in some cases on a higher and more stressful level.

BB

My RCM memoir!(True Story)- Once upon a time, at a...

2007-12-04T15:14:00.000+13:00

My RCM memoir!

(True Story)- Once upon a time, at a Holy Day long ago, it was given to me as an assignment to greet RCM who was coming to our local area as the guest speaker for the Holy Day.

He was to park right by the front door, I was to open his door for him and his wife, greet them, point the way, and then proceed to park his car for him.

Once inside of his car, and having parked it, I couldnt resist the temptation to snoop around a bit. It was indeed immaculate inside, but the ash tray was sealed shut.

Could there possibly be some ashes in there???..or maybe a joint or something else?? I had to know! So I opened up the ashtray and lo and behold, it too was clean enough to eat out of!

But, what about his listening habits on the radio?? What station is his dial set on?? Underground Rock and Roll perhaps?? Nope! - Just plain old KNX 1070 All news all the time!

Glove box??- A couple of maps!

LOL! - I felt very guilty afterward for snooping on old Rod, but he did check out 100% clean!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

I taught at AC Pasadena in the mid-to late sixties...

2007-12-04T15:03:00.000+13:00

I taught at AC Pasadena in the mid-
to late sixties. I taught Speech, French and Fourth Year Bible and was the Director of an Ambassador Club. I remember Dennis Diehl pretty well but not well enough to remember if he was in one of my clubs or not. Joe Jr. was at one time as was John Trechak.

To my mind, at that time Dennis was the quintessence of a WCG minister. In fact, in one of the dreaded, and now completely misrepresented, Manpower Meetings, I made a strong recommendation that we ordain him as soon as possible after Graduation. Sorry Dennis.

You are intelligent, honest with yourself, and have a natural compassion for people so I would not say I was wrong in believing the way I did back then. You have a Pastor's heart.

Regrettably, it was just the wrong Church.

Lochinvar

hey, it's after 7. Call me and let's chat. 864 905...

2007-12-04T14:14:00.000+13:00

hey, it's after 7. Call me and let's chat. 864 905 5804

I encourage, not dare, you!

2007-12-04T13:36:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Anonymous said:" I'd tell you more why I believe t...

2007-12-04T13:35:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said:

" I'd tell you more why I believe that but then they'd know who I am. Most of these guys mean well, and that's being far more charitable to them than they would be towards me."

Free yourself of that. Sounds like you feel they would know you so well , faults and all, that they have something over you or dismiss you in some way.

That reminded me of a woman who introduced herself to me once the first week I was in a new assignment. She gave me her name and then said "I'm the one who committed adultery," as if I would say, 'OHHHHHHHHHHHHHH it's YOU! Nice to meet YOU!" I laughed and told her that's the last time I want to hear that and it was nice to meet her. I also then said, "which adultress are you? There are a lot more than you." That pretty much ended it.

I may be getting your drift wrong, but you just be you and never let anyone hold being your authentic self against you. Never take it personally. It's about them, not you.

amen.:)

DennisDiehl said... I never found RCM to be any...

2007-12-04T13:17:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl said...

I never found RCM to be anything but sincere. Overly sincere if anything and naively so. I have sat with, hand on his, at my table while he sobbed over his personal losses and pain. He is zealous but that is not always directed well or contains a balanced understanding and letting people be people.

That's my opinion as well. I'd tell you more why I believe that but then they'd know who I am. Most of these guys mean well, and that's being far more charitable to them than they would be towards me.

Rod also has the gift healing warts. Not sure if he can heal anything else, but I was referred to him for warts on my hand, and they left in two weeks. I spent 3 years with every known "cure" to no avail.

But you don't have to be a preacher to have the gift of healing. That's just one of those things sprinkled about in the human population. Its just part of being human.

What saddens me is he propgates a system that enslaves people to HWA's flawed theology and control structure.

Robert said:"I lived through the last years of the...

2007-12-04T12:36:00.000+13:00

Robert said:

"I lived through the last years of the WCG (the glory years when Tkach Snr was pastor general)."

I would call those the gory years myself.

Robert said: "Probally circumcised attending a synagogue"

They don't always go together. I rather laugh at wondering what Paul meant when he said in I Corinthians 7:

"7:18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised."

The second part I understand, but how do you get uncircumcised? Seems like you can't unring the bell to me...:)

I love Paul!

>> I had to be there. I accept the experience. Som...

2007-12-04T12:28:00.000+13:00

>> I had to be there. I accept the experience. Somehow things work out.

Great that things have worked out for you! Also I am sure that many of us, me included would not have missed out on the opportunity of being in the WCG, if only for a glimpse moment in time.

I lived through South Africa's apartheid.

I lived through the last years of the WCG (the glory years when Tkach Snr was pastor general).

Was I the only one who actually liked the man?

Now I am just waiting for World War 3 and then I have been through it all!

"God knows where I could have ended up"

--Probally circumcised attending a synagogue in my teens still trying to unsuccessfully convert my irreligious parents.

Robert said:"God only knows where I would have end...

2007-12-04T11:59:00.000+13:00

Robert said:

"God only knows where I would have ended up!"

I may begrudge the experience in hindsite, but I had to be there. NO ONE could have talked me out of going to AC as a teen on a mission from God. I sneaked my application under my parka to the mailbox. (We were Presbyterian but Calvinist and Dutch Orthodox)

I actually felt it was God calling me, not only to the college, but to the ministry. That's why I went. I had no intention of leaving not a minister or I would not have gone. I turned down another seminary experience to go to AC which I honestly was a seminary of sorts. I knew very little about WCG when I went save for the lit I had read. I never attended a local church more than a few times prior to going to AC.

I ate a ham sandwich on the plane to LA because I knew it would be my last! It was!

I had a severely handicapped brother and I was going to be on the direct line to getting him healed.

When it was announced that I was being sent to Minneapolis as an official ministerial assistant (affectionately known as 'mini-ass',) I called my dad who had since come into the church himself and ended up an elder. He cried and told me that when my brother was born so defective (so was I evidently, it was just more subtle:), "I told God that if he'd give me a normal son (no comment) God could use him any way he wished."

When I called and said I was going "into the field" he took that as God's calling in his pledge. So you can see we were emotionally invested in the church and my being a minister too.

Alas....., actually alas is all I can think to say about it all now.

My dad is now 93 and we laugh about it except when I bemoan something about it and he chides me for not letting things be as they are. I had to be there. I accept the experience. Somehow things work out.

Unless of course, the whole thing was God's way of leading me to be a massage therapist, and work every weekend at the hospital doing something else. I think that was the plan from the foundation of the world. Yeah, that's it!

Actually I meet more honest, genuine and open people and get more authentic human talk in with that table than I ever did with a suit and tie.

>>There was no way in hell, I was going to survive...

2007-12-04T11:30:00.000+13:00

>>There was no way in hell, I was going to survive my youthful calling into the truth of WCG. :)

The meeting between the LCG and UCG is a good thing because at least it helping to break the barriers of separation that has existed between the two groups.

Secondly Yisrael Hawkins can be heard if you want to listen to him on the Hotbird satellite with his own Tv channel called The Prophetic Word. After listening to him for a few programmes, it was enough for me! He seems to have an obsession for whores, sexually transmitted diseases and fornication. Or was it that they just played the same programme for the whole day..who knows? Good old Buffalo Bill his congregation is more scary than he is, occassionally the camera would give you a glimpse of them.

Thirdly, reminds me what would I have done if I hadn't followed my heart instead of my head. While I wouldn't have spent my youth in WCG either!

God only knows where I would have ended up!

Neo, you're right about sincere not making anythin...

2007-12-04T09:25:00.000+13:00

Neo, you're right about sincere not making anything right. I was just speaking of the man as a man when I spoke with him. Too intense and wrongly focused for my tastes way back when even. He went out of his way to embarass me a couple of times in class for asking questions and such so there is that side of my experience too.

So Neo..how DID you come to the truth...har har. Sorry..I hadn't thought of that phrase in a few years.

I don't consider myself hard to catch on to things, but that Surprising God Blog leaves me feeling dead too. It's theo babble at its best. I was doomed . There was no way in hell, I was going to survive my youthful calling into the truth of WCG. :)
Perhaps I should say, no way under heaven. Does that sound better?

The superlatives used,shouted, exlaimed and shouted out on the site are a turn off. When people are too "joyful in him" I begin to suspect someone leading a double life somewhere.

Dennis:As I understand, Baxter Kruger may advocate...

2007-12-04T05:41:00.000+13:00

Dennis:

As I understand, Baxter Kruger may advocate Universalism. This agrees with what Pastor Tim wrote.

I have looked at the Surprising God Blog. I am not sure God is as surprising as Ted Johnston is. The site contained a lot of religious boilerplate - so much so that it seemed lifeless to me. Maybe I have read too many government documents.

You mentioned RCM's sincereity. I have heard the adjective "sincere" in regard go him many times. No doubt he is sincere but his personal sincereity does not somehow transmute heresy into truth.

I just saw a distrubing documentary on the Arts and Entertainment station about "The House of Yahweh" -- an offshoot of Armstrongism run by some guy with a name like Yisrael Hawkins. Really scary stuff. An investigative reporter entered their compound down in Texas and shot some footage with a hidden camera and talked to a few people.

The reporter talked to a couple of women who seemed articulate and upbeat but were wearing robes that covered their entire bodies and veils that covered their lower faces -- like Muslim women. Hawkins was shown giving a sermon in an expensive looking traditional men's suit.
They used a lots of the typical Armstrongite jargon. They spoke of "coming into the Truth" and "proving" doctrines to themselves.

RCM is just a variation on this same theme.

For Armstrongites who just for some cotton picking reason cannot see themselves, looking at the House of Yahweh would be a tour through self-examination.

-- Neo

>>>Christ does NOT have to be the focus of a commu...

2007-12-04T02:54:00.000+13:00

>>>Christ does NOT have to be the focus of a community in order for the members of that community to be relating to God and for God to be present.<<<

whoever wrote this is completely insane.

This is of course my personal opinion and experien...

2007-12-04T02:46:00.000+13:00

This is of course my personal opinion and experience with these men personally, one on one, so don't freak out.

I never found RCM to be anything but sincere. Overly sincere if anything and naively so. I have sat with, hand on his, at my table while he sobbed over his personal losses and pain. He is zealous but that is not always directed well or contains a balanced understanding and letting people be people.

Gerald Waterhouse seemed very sincere to me and I spend hours with him. He was just on auto pilot and odd as well. Very intense. A personality type I don't understand but was what it was.

Doug Winnail is very sincere and gave up much his whole life to just be a minister. Very intelligent. Again, we were personal friends. He has suffered his losses and has nothing to gain but criticism for being next in line if that is so. I have no doubt as to his sincere beliefs.

On the other hand, and this is just me again. The fact that all the new WCG leaders arose out of the Imperial Schools crowd is no mystery to me. THese are the oppressed kids of the 70's who were being groomed or ruined depending on your view for Church stuff. Kids know what's going on and I think they knew enough to be skeptical and mentally vow to change it if they ever could.

The problem is they never knew the church outside of California. They were mostly never year after year ministers just believing they were called to do the right thing and help people hold onto it.

Joe T Sr. was no more qualified to lead a church than John Dillinger. Joe Jr. is very intellignet and can be very compassionate when he chooses. It's the choosing that is the problem.

I have no personal interest in religion save for what it's really all about and where it really arises from, but the fruit of WCG and the Tkach needs emotionally are well stated over at The Surprising God Blog where pure nonesense about Jesus and what God and the Holy Spirit are doing, thinking, causing and inspiring is just bunk. But it is serving a deep need for those who need the doublespeak of Jesus and especially the Trinity which has become for WCG the ultimate truth and it will suck you in and all is well if you just will...or even won't if you read the posts.

I even have picked a poster there that I suspect will bail out and may have issues with himself that all the inclusion no matter what brings comfort for. Just a "feeling."

At any rate, Ted Armstong, I am not sure about as I only knew him superficially save for one confrontation he had with me. He was was the Evel Kneival of the Radio at the time. It's an ego trip and I thnk he felt compelled and expected to do it, guilted by his dad and the death of his more astute and spiritual brother Richard. Who knows...

Douglas Becker said... Dennis, Yet another t...

2007-12-03T22:23:00.000+13:00

Douglas Becker said...

Dennis,

Yet another thing disturbing about Roderick Meredith is that he knew about GTA and what went on in Pasadena in the late Sixties and Seventies, yet he did nothing about it.

Actually he was quite active trying to get Garner Ted booted out, and become the new heir apparent. Then Stanley got that slot anyway. There was quite a strong early rivalry between Rod and GTA. Rod is quite an ambitious man.

Joe Tkach Jr told me his mother had her mental breakdown after Rod brought her in for one of his marathon interrogation sessions while Tkach Sr was out of town. It seems he thought Mrs Tkach had some inside knowledge he could intimidate it out of her. He ended breaking the woman's mind. This story differs quite a bit from John Trechak's AR version Mrs Tkach involving Blackwell, and John was a friend of mine in his last years, so I can't speak to which is more accurate. But I didn't get the feeling Joe was lying to me, he's generally easy to catch when not telling the truth.

I got the feeling there's not a lot of sympathy in the Tkach family for Meredith and his quirks.

Monte Wolverton created a Rap/scratch beat record out of a set of Meridith audio tapes in 1996. It was very amusing....I saw Joe Jr roll on his couch in tears laughing when he heard it. I wish I still had a copy of it, I think Brad Mann in the bay area has my copy and I lost contact with Brad. "...that Billions with B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B-B Brethren..." ripped right out of some end time horror sermon.

I view Rod as one of many who'd suck up to HWA at any cost. That's all they ever knew, they thought that's the way they served God best. HWA just ate up that hero worship stuff. His short man ego couldn't get enough of that.

I've been scanning the STP project into PDF form tonight. I'm struck by how infantile WCG theology was. Yet this was a milestone of liberal tolerance that HWA raged on about? Its pathetic really....and I don't mean that from a conservative point of view. The conservatives are worse, especially in lying about this document as some liberal agenda it was not.

The STP has 3 pages devoted to God, and nearly a dozen to the Bible. All these organizations are really more about worshiping a book than about worshiping God. Bibliotry.

And don't get me started about the Amazing God Blog. Its amazing alright. The bible as the incarnation of God my foot.

The grass roots documenting and archiving continues on!!!

Dennis,Yet another thing disturbing about Roderick...

2007-12-03T17:07:00.000+13:00

Dennis,

Yet another thing disturbing about Roderick Meredith is that he knew about GTA and what went on in Pasadena in the late Sixties and Seventies, yet he did nothing about it.

He's really "brave" to shoot off his mouth when he believes nobody can touch him, but he is a coward. He did not risk his job to protest the evil at AC to Herbert Armstrong, even though he was #3 in Charge. He also did not resign as a matter of conscience. He did, however, make his victims in the WCG and at AC miserable -- no mercy and compassion at all from him at all.

He has no credibility, particularly because he is a false prophet and has never really repented of that. He is like the priest and Levite who passed on the other side of the road to avoid the man who fell among thieves.

May you find good Samaritans and avoid the Pharisees. Jesus, save us from your followers, particularly the self-righteous Pharisees of the xCGs!

""You know, the most disturbing thing about Roderi...

2007-12-03T11:38:00.000+13:00

""You know, the most disturbing thing about Roderick Meredith is his statement that he has never committed a major sin."

Oh man I did!:)

I remember RCM saying this in a freshman Bible class. It was a most uncomfortable feeling that someone would actually say that.

When getting counseled for baptism I remember being taken thru the Big Ten and asked if I had ever broke them.

I said..hm, I don't worship other gods, I don't take gods name in vain, never killed anyone, I now keep the sabbath, no major lies or sex problems at the time. (ok, well depends who you ask)..so I said "No, not really..."

They sent me home to rethink my answer...so when I came back, I said..."Oh yes, in spirit..all the time"...I was then allowed to join the club...:(

"You know, the most disturbing thing about Roderic...

2007-12-03T11:23:00.000+13:00

"You know, the most disturbing thing about Roderick Meredith is his statement that he has never committed a major sin."

I wasn't aware that there was any such thing as a "major sin", as they all carry the same penalty

Hi Neo..You'll find some amazing quotes about curr...

2007-12-03T10:48:00.000+13:00

Hi Neo..You'll find some amazing quotes about current WCG thinking on the Surprising God Blog

Pastor Tim says...
"If we believe that all are in Christ then my fellow Muslim or Hindu or Buddhist is included in the Life of God (because he/she is absolutely included in Jesus!). That means that I am in the community of God with them as sure as the God Who is present in all of us, whether I am visiting with these people of other faiths or meeting with the "Christian" Church at a building, work or in play!

Christ does NOT have to be the focus of a community in order for the members of that community to be relating to God and for God to be present. They are relating to God and he is present because Christ has related them to himself and made God present to them, apart from their work or concious knowledge (there is no more Jew, Greek, Christian :-)! Jesus is not an egomaniac demanding our full attentive thoughts on Himself at all times in community. As He shares His love in and through any one of us, we are only sharing in His unending centeredness on the Father and the community he shares with the Father and the Spirit. This is the truth of all truths whether we think of such a thing or not!!

It's all an interesting read. I know of at least two WCG ministers who won't go back to the site because of their disagreements with current WCG thinking and gurus.

http://thesurprisinggodblog.wcg.org/

Well, you see, Douglas, Tom has been absorbed by "...

2007-12-03T08:44:00.000+13:00

Well, you see, Douglas, Tom has been absorbed by "the Borg" (see Startrek), and is incapable of independent thought. Tom=Rod=Bob Thiel=etc, on back through HWA, William Miller, Mrs Eggwhite, et al.

You know, the most disturbing thing about Roderick...

2007-12-03T07:21:00.000+13:00

You know, the most disturbing thing about Roderick Meredith is his statement that he has never committed a major sin.

If he believes that to be true, he would never have repented of anything because he didn't have to, and thus, does not and can not have the Holy Spirit until he does.

Firstly, you began scraping the bottom of the barr...

2007-12-03T06:56:00.000+13:00

Firstly, you began scraping the bottom of the barrel; secondly, you made the retrograde step of labelling everything incompetent.

Now, thirdly, I note with some amusement, or should that be pity, that you have now dredged up the word predator. The paucity of your vocabulary and asinine opinions is sickening to behold.

Ah, the predator speaks, deigning to obfuscate all the issues, since he cannot answer the charge that Roderick Meredith is a false prophet, a liar, a pharisee and a covenant breaker, the very picture of II Timothy 3.

The paucity of substance represented in the quote in italics above is to be expected of an ungodly gamesplayer who formed his own cult, but continues to sing the praises of LCG and Meredith and the rest of the pack of wolves. What's with that?

There can be not one shred of credibility held for such a person, but instead, contempt is appropriate for such a wicked and evil Pharisee.

Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel for religious refuse.

Douglas Becker said..>>>Predators generally shun o...

2007-12-03T06:25:00.000+13:00

Douglas Becker said..

>>>Predators generally shun open flames, although religious predators play with fire: If there is a burning, it certainly isn't from Christianity, although you can be sure they will all burn some day.<<<

Firstly, you began scraping the bottom of the barrel; secondly, you made the retrograde step of labelling everything incompetent.

Now, thirdly, I note with some amusement, or should that be pity, that you have now dredged up the word predator. The paucity of your vocabulary and asinine opinions is sickening to behold.