Comments on Ambassador Watch: The 34 500

DAVE PACK IS SPIRTUALLY INSANE!

2008-01-21T13:30:00.000+13:00

DAVE PACK IS SPIRTUALLY INSANE!

To Tom Mahon,You are exactly the problem with Arms...

2008-01-21T12:57:00.000+13:00

To Tom Mahon,

You are exactly the problem with Armstrongism. How dare you pray for death upon another human being. Is that the example that Jesus Christ set? Of course not! What kind of a christian are you? You're not, you're a jackass! You should pray that you won't end up in the "lake of fire." What a crock.

Tom Mahon said, "Your point to me, dredged up from...

2008-01-21T10:35:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon said, "Your point to me, dredged up from the dark recesses of your satanic mind, was that I have bodies buried in my back yard, and that I abused my children."

Hehehehehehehe . . . uh, do you? Because we know for a fact that you verbally abuse.

Tom said: "Your point to me, dredged up from the d...

2008-01-21T09:07:00.000+13:00

Tom said: "Your point to me, dredged up from the dark recesses of your satanic mind, was that I have bodies buried in my back yard, and that I abused my children."

Tom, Your views of God and religion in general are abusive...passing this along to your children qualifies as abuse. I know you think you do it out of love and I believe you are sincere, just tragically flawed. I hope you are at least open minded enough to listen to your children as they approach or are in their teen years and spend less time preaching and judging them. They have perspectives that are often lost on we adults.

...and I don't have a satanic mind.

Charlie said:>>>My point to Tom was that Thomas Je...

2008-01-20T23:03:00.000+13:00

Charlie said:

>>>My point to Tom was that Thomas Jefferson and other great thinkers such as Ben Franklin, Samuel Johnson, etc, lived in a time where there were far fewer mind numbing distractions such as the boob tube and of course, the internet.<<<

Your point to me, dredged up from the dark recesses of your satanic mind, was that I have bodies buried in my back yard, and that I abused my children.

Neotherm said...>>>I sometimes wonder if our preoc...

2008-01-20T22:57:00.000+13:00

Neotherm said...

>>>I sometimes wonder if our preoccupation with statistics is a by product of Armstrongite indoctrination.<<<

Although I don't agree with the phrase, "Armstrongite indoctrination," I believe your comment is a profound observation, considering that you have repudiated your first love and spend much of your time lamenting you ever heard of WCG.

HWA's background was in sales and marketing, so it is not too difficult to make the connection between his former profession and how it measures success, and how the growth of the church was measured.

Using statistics, in my judgement, to measure the growth or success of preaching the gospel relegates the church to the status of a business, which is primarily concerned with the number of customers and the bottom line. The church's emphasis should have been on the quality of the people coming through its doors, rather than on the level of income and the number of baptisms.

If the emphasis was on quality rather than quantity, sadly, many of you here, who now regard HWA as a charlatan, would never have been baptised or ordained as ministers. But if that had happened, you would have had nothing to accuse HWA of. Still, I am sure, as a matter of disposition, you would have found someone else to blame for your problems.

Anon. said:Wasn't David punished by God for counti...

2008-01-20T14:57:00.000+13:00

Anon. said:

Wasn't David punished by God for counting his army?

Actually, no, David never was punished. The reason being, God ordered him to conduct the census (2 Sam. 24) to begin with. Of course, in another book (1 Chron. 21), it was all Satan's fault. Either way, 70,000 innocent Jews were screwed. But not David.

No wonder Jefferson thought the way he did about the Bible.

Bamboo Bends said: "Charlie....have you read the "...

2008-01-20T13:33:00.000+13:00

Bamboo Bends said: "Charlie....have you read the "Jefferson" Bible?"...

"For a 1700's cut and paste job, its a very good little compilation of Jesus teachings, minus the hocus pocus parts."

I have not, I might check it out though.

My point to Tom was that Thomas Jefferson and other great thinkers such as Ben Franklin, Samuel Johnson, etc, lived in a time where there were far fewer mind numbing distractions such as the boob tube and of course, the internet. They spent a good deal of time pondering and observing things. Thomas Jefferson concluded that many of the items that religious fundamentalists take to be literally true, are just allegory.

The bible is a great document but certainly there are areas that are made up to tell a tale and others that are in conflict with reality.

Without enormous resources to overcome the entropy...

2008-01-20T11:44:00.000+13:00

Without enormous resources to overcome the entropy of the unnatural artificial environment of the WCG, collapse must ensue.

Charlie said... "If something is not reasonab...

2008-01-20T11:15:00.000+13:00

Charlie said...

"If something is not reasonable, it is not believeable."

Paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson regarding the literal interpretation of the bible.

Charlie....have you read the "Jefferson" Bible?

For a 1700's cut and paste job, its a very good little compilation of Jesus teachings, minus the hocus pocus parts.

As to the WCG, the History Channel is running a series on how things fall a part, to quote the trailer "...in all things built by man are also sown the seeds of its destruction..."

The fate of the WCG was sealed in 1995-96. It wasn't meant to be fixed, as hard as it was for me to accept that fact at the time. It was meant to crumble. Its daughter churches are in no better shape.

The decay is simply a matter of time taking its toll.

Blessed and happy is the sham,Who doth ever walk a...

2008-01-20T11:12:00.000+13:00

Blessed and happy is the sham,
Who doth ever walk astray,
Nor with godly men
Stands in righteous sway.

All he does
Prospers swell
But the righteous are not so
They are fodder for the fools
Who in mansions dwell.

'er in scorner's chair he sits,
For he places his delight,
In the tithes he gets,
Sent in day and night.

All he does
Prospers swell,
But the members are not so,
Leaders are the ones dined and wined,
Who in mammon grow.

Revenues just grow and grow,
Rooted on Glendora's City sides,
Which in season yields the fruit,
Green its cash abides.

All he does
Is confused:
Makes no real sense at all,
You just have to now believe,
This Empire's got to fall.

Poet Critic

In matters analytic,It's oft best to be a Brief Cr...

2008-01-20T09:04:00.000+13:00

In matters analytic,
It's oft best to be a Brief Critic.

Behold the administration of the newest WCG,A phen...

2008-01-20T08:40:00.000+13:00

Behold the administration of the newest WCG,
A phenomenon remarkable: That which should never be!
Robber barons, inheritors of the founder's mammon,
Living high on the hog while their widows suffer famine.

We've succeeded, fulfiled for what we lusted,
Playing petty con games without ever getting busted.
We're out of the business of annual vacation planning
By virtue of the doctrines we've been very busy banning.

Upon our leadership we've certainly been bestowing
Unjustified riches which we've been busily blowing;
Just what they provide us we certainly cannot tell
But we can certainly assure you that they're doing very well.

The magazine's a memory, it's really sad to see
The Plain Truth is again to never be
Associated with us again, best guess
Because the whole thing's gotten
To be an incredible mess.

The whole purpose for our existence and our living
Is to insure that all of you will keep on giving,
No other justification for us exists
Except that our self-existence persists.

No one can correct us and we will never bow
We live in ivory towers and eat high off the sow;
We provide you nothing of value that's for sure
Our selfish narcissitic existence forever will endure.

But we must keep up appearances for the sake of the deceived
To seem to be worthwhile for all the wealth we've received
We need to act so good and pure and godly
To cover our behavior objectively perpetrated oddly.

We present ourselves as righteous, acting out a good game
So much so, the simple don't perceive we're really really lame
We must project ourselves as ministers of light
To cover up the fact we are quite a miserable blight.

The membership has significantly diminished
Yet we need to cover up the fact that we are finished;
Just how can we make our membership look bigger?
Figures never lie but liars often figure.

Some good points.But what do their membership numb...

2008-01-20T07:29:00.000+13:00

Some good points.

But what do their membership numbers really mean anyway? Church is a poor man's country club. Except in the WCG, you become poorer after you join.

Wasn't David punished by God for counting his army?

I sometimes wonder if our preoccupation with stati...

2008-01-20T06:59:00.000+13:00

I sometimes wonder if our preoccupation with statistics is a by product of Armstrongite indoctrination.

In a Jesus Plus Cult where works become preeminent and displace grace, measurements of performance are a really big deal. I just had a look at the United News on the UCG website and they have a big chart showing the circulation of their magazine in countries around the world. A real monument to Performance "Christianity".

I have looked at magazines published by other churches and I do not see this kind of compulsive quantification.

-- Neo

Tom's "sound mind" is on the same par as producing...

2008-01-20T06:45:00.000+13:00

Tom's "sound mind" is on the same par as producing commercial power from table top cold fusion.

Tom,Soundness of mind / Sanity:1.) The quality or ...

2008-01-20T06:21:00.000+13:00

Tom,

Soundness of mind / Sanity:

1.) The quality or condition of being sane; soundness of mind.
2.) Soundness of judgment or reason.

"If something is not reasonable, it is not believeable."

Paraphrasing Thomas Jefferson regarding the literal interpretation of the bible.

Scripture says that the love of money is a root of...

2008-01-20T06:05:00.000+13:00

Scripture says that the love of money is a root of all evil, so it's obvious that the WCG feels a need to get back to its roots.

ned said...Thanks ned, but I was too numbed to thi...

2008-01-20T03:14:00.000+13:00

ned said...

Thanks ned, but I was too numbed to think straight. It should have read "I was grateful for the soundness of mind with which God has blessed me."

Funny, one of my last WCG ministers in Washington,...

2008-01-20T03:03:00.000+13:00

Funny, one of my last WCG ministers in Washington, D.C. in the mid 1970s was Randy Dick. When I was going through my boxes of old PTs, Sabbath service notes, purple Hymnal, church stuff, etc. I found a tape cassette. So, I put it into a player and it was a Randy Dick "fire and brimstone" type sermon about how we all need to re-dedicate ourselves to God and the Work, support Mr. Armstrong and help hold Mr. Armstrong's arms up so to speak. He quoted Mr. Armstrong extensively from a ministerial letter.

It's funny to see his name mentioned on this site many years later. I wonder what Mr. Dick's reaction would be if we played the tape of his 1970s sermon today. Or, should we assume he pimps for any church leader that comes along just as long as he receives a secure paycheck? Has Randy Dick ever had a real job doing real work?

Richard

Tom wheezed: "I was greatful for the soundness of ...

2008-01-20T01:00:00.000+13:00

Tom wheezed: "I was greatful for the soundness of mind with which has blessed me."

Greatful obviously means full of greatness. For which one supposes you could be grateful.

But with which WHO has blessed you? Obviously someone with a well developed sense of humor.

I do appreciate that there is very little of subst...

2008-01-20T00:11:00.000+13:00

I do appreciate that there is very little of substance coming out of WCG, or any of the COGs for that matter. So there isn't much on which the Blog can reflect, especially when it is relying on the COGs to set the agenda.

But when I logged in this morning to find members and lurkers alike discussing or speculating on the mind numbing topics of WCG's membership and financial income, I was greatful for the soundness of mind with which has blessed me.

LOL, These WCG membership statements need to be au...

2008-01-20T00:06:00.000+13:00

LOL,

These WCG membership statements need to be audited!

And I'll offer to donate my accounting time and throw in my auditing services for free!

Stan

LOL, these turkeys can't seem to get anything righ...

2008-01-19T23:20:00.000+13:00

LOL, these turkeys can't seem to get anything right, let alone get their story straight. What to believe, the PDF (34500) or the HTML version (total 43000)? Not a good look!

Gavin, Together is printing two inconsistent, diff...

2008-01-19T23:01:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

Together is printing two inconsistent, different, contradictory sets of WCG membership figures in the very same issue!

Compare the Together pdf figure cited for the United Kingdom - 871 - with this UK figure here Together
simultaneously HTML cited at 1,467. How can there be such a difference in the same article? It wouldn't be due to a clerical error due to the following.

There are other discrepancies between the two spreadsheets - Belgium 23 or 36; Denmark 20 or 17; Italy 114 or 132; Norway 30 or 28; Portugal 26 or 28; Switzerland 79 or 143;
UK 1,467 or the 871 you quoted, and Europe, 2,535 or 1,980.

Which one of these WCG spreadsheets is most accurate?

Which are we to believe?

Stan