Comments on Ambassador Watch: Spit or Whistle?

bear_track:Beautifully expressed.

2007-06-30T05:45:00.000+12:00

bear_track:

Beautifully expressed.

I am a mainstream Christian and I strongly believe...

2007-06-30T02:45:00.000+12:00

I am a mainstream Christian and I strongly believe in the separation of Church and State. An example of all the evil that can come from not having this separation is painfully visible in our current national misery.

We have evangelical leaders visiting President Bush weekly and advising him that our policy is Iraq is the right one based on promises made to Abraham in the Old Testament. They seem to neglect to tell him that the Middle East has been a "burdensome stone" to whomever has involved themselves there. And will be such throughout the future.

So we have a case of the evangelicals helping the neoconservatives who are helping the evangelicals who are helping the neoconservatives, ad nauseum.
But this mutual admiration society's activities translate into the waste of 3,500 men and women in a war based on a fallacious pretext and an inability to revise any decision.

Charlie, fair enough. I would ask that you explor...

2007-06-29T09:01:00.000+12:00

Charlie, fair enough. I would ask that you explore the belief backgrounds of the founders, a number of whom were "radical" for their time. Deism was perhaps the primary "religious" underlay for the founding principles, although interestingly, the effect of Calvinism probably had some influence, in the sense of projecting the idea that no human is "righteous" and therefore should have too much power entrusted to him/her; maybe this idea had input to the valuable principle of separation of powers (a principle that our current executive branch seems to have problems with).

And the Enlightenment philosophers contributed the major portion of the ideology which created the republic. I think that the notion of freedom of worship (and freedom not to worship) also plays a great role, as so many had come here from the earliest colonial times to escape religious persecution in Europe. Many times, these groups, such as Massachusetts Puritans, didn't wish to grant that liberty to others, but over the course of 150 years, the colonies were moving more toward a rejection of enforced religion. Certainly, James Madison was instrumental in throwing off the attempt by the Anglican (Episcopalian) church to be declared the official state church of Virginia.

Camfinch,One other thing. I agree that the less re...

2007-06-29T05:52:00.000+12:00

Camfinch,

One other thing. I agree that the less religion is in the public (read:Government) sphere the better.

Camfinch,I wouldn't like that at all. However, you...

2007-06-29T05:49:00.000+12:00

Camfinch,

I wouldn't like that at all. However, you are missing the point. I wouldn't support a 'National Prayer' either and also believe that religion is and should be a private thing. If our nation was founded by a majority of dirt worshipers, hindis, or even muslims things might be reflected differently...but they aren't and the nation's institutions should have the marks of the founders and they remain (for the time being) the majority. I am all for inclusiveness and assimilation. I am not for the politically correct "Celebrate Diversity" which I think is causing great problems in our society. We should be celebrating what we have in common and moving toward a common goal(s) no matter what race, color, or creed.

I wish religions and other groups would stay away from political endorsements...or lose their tax exempt status.

James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and others probab...

2007-06-29T02:56:00.000+12:00

James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and others probably saw things rather more radically than you, Charlie. James Madison, for instance, refused, as president, to resopnd to calls to declare a national day of prayer, saying that religion is private and that government has no business entering the religious spectrum.

It's not a matter of belief in God (Yahweh, Jesus, Allah, Vishnu, Amitabha, whoever), it's a matter of belief being for individuals , not a part of the state. (By the way, I do not consider myself an atheist.) Would you be comfortable if our coinage had the phrase "Allahu Akbar" (Allah is greater)? How about on our currency, "Hare Krishna, hare rama"? Or maybe the nature-relgion principle, "Blessed be"? We are a diverse society, with a wide panoply of beliefs. It's a lot less messy to keep religion out of the public sphere.

Why is there no mention of God (or even the Deist notion of Providence) in the Constitution? At the time of the creation of the Constitution, a number of Christian clergymen and laity loudly complained about that omission, feeling that the United States should have been officially declared a Christian nation. The founders saw things differently.

You can find plenty of information on this subject on www.au.org, the website of Americans United For Separation of Church and State. And no, members of Americans United are not all "atheists".

The separation of church and state had everything ...

2007-06-29T01:53:00.000+12:00

The separation of church and state had everything to do with the state not *establishing* a state religion. In other words there would not be a Church of America, like the Church of England, or the Catholic Church in Italy or Argentina. Americans would be free to join the denomination of their choice or not join any. The establishment clause did not intend that there would be no mention of God on public documents, currency, or in our institutions. Like it or not and for better or for worse, the majority of Americans still believe in God so you will need to learn to accept that...Trust me there are many things the atheists do that drive me up a wall too :)

Slight amendment to Corky: the phrase "In God We ...

2007-06-28T12:52:00.000+12:00

Slight amendment to Corky: the phrase "In God We Trust" originally was put on coinage in 1864; in the 1950's, it got extended to paper currency.

Either way: an abrogation of the paramount issue of separation of church and state.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

bear_track said... "It is amazing to me how that s...

2007-06-28T07:18:00.000+12:00

bear_track said...
"It is amazing to me how that some people can convert every topic into a rant against the God of the Bible."

What is more amazing to me is talking about the God of the Bible as if it existed beyond belief.

"For example, I listen to a few evangelical preachers in he media. I have noticed that they are very selective about what sins they attack."

They are not all that selective about what sins they attack. They are all SEX sins. Pornography, homosexuals, abortion, feminism and are against the rights of everyone but themselves.

Let's have prayer in schools (they already do, that right was never taken away from them) but they mean public prayer led by a "christian" only.

Let's be honest and admit that "they" would not like prayer in schools led by Mrs. Teacher if Mrs. Teacher was a Hindu or Muslim or a Wiccan priestess.

Let's be honest and admit that they wouldn't like it if our currency said "In Hashem We Trust" or in "Allah" or "Vishnu" for that matter. Hey, but there are Americans that do and Jews living here write G-d instead of God and are offended, what about them?

This all happened in the 1950s the "in god we trust" and the "under god" and the placing of the ten commandments in public places. Every one of those things is unconstitutional. Why? Because not every damn body in America are christians.

Some in any given congregation will be put off by ...

2007-06-28T02:43:00.000+12:00

Some in any given congregation will be put off by the sermon / homily every week. It is simply the way of things...This isn't new. It is the same in politics and the boardroom.

Gambling. It would be unsafe to preach against gam...

2007-06-27T17:09:00.000+12:00

Gambling. It would be unsafe to preach against gambling in an older conservative congregation.

That's right! No one is ever disatisfied or alien...

2007-06-27T11:31:00.000+12:00

That's right! No one is ever disatisfied or alienated by the modern secular state, nor does anyone consider the modern economic order oppressive; it's like Gibbon's said - the fault of the christians and barbarians.

It is amazing to me how that some people can conve...

2007-06-27T07:53:00.000+12:00

It is amazing to me how that some people can convert every topic into a rant against the God of the Bible. It becomes cloying after a while. Perhaps another blog is in order, where this tedium can be pursued without interruption and with plenty of mutual congratulations.

One of the reasons why church attendance is in decline, I believe, is due to the politicization of the evangelical pulpit. Not only has this pulpit been co-opted by neoconservatives, it is also under the sway of the politics of evangelical congregations.

For example, I listen to a few evangelical preachers in he media. I have noticed that they are very selective about what sins they attack. A favorite is pornography. If a preacher's principal constituency consists of overweight middle aged and elderly women, railing against pornography addiction is a safe thing to do.

But that same preacher would probably never mention the problem of being addicted to eBay as some women are. He would never mention overeating as a serious issue. Because this would alienate his supporters.

The fact that these preachers know which side their bread is buttered on, is something that people detect. The attendant loss of credibility is one of the reasons why being a church attender is not appealing to many.

Charlie said... Corky,I said you could have the la...

2007-06-27T06:54:00.000+12:00

Charlie said...
Corky,

I said you could have the last word and you can. I'm just hoping people will do more research than their high school or college biology texts.
----------------------------------

Some people do! That's why there is more and more evidence of the theory all the time.

Corky,I give in, I need to add a couple of points ...

2007-06-27T04:11:00.000+12:00

Corky,

I give in, I need to add a couple of points of clarification:

You are mixing mixing or mistaking evolution with geology. Simply because a human or other type of living being had the misfortune of getting caught up (or not caught up) in a landslide, flashflood, or other type of natural occurance which makes up rock layers does not prove or disprove evolution. They are apples and oranges.

Rock layers are made up all at once by some type of event. For example; If a cow dies in the middle of a field, the flesh and bone decompose and wither away long before a layer of dust and dirt can cover it, preserve it, and fossilize it. Now if a cow is caught in mudslide or flashflood of enough size that the cow is covered in mud and other conditions are met, then the preservation and mineralization process can take place and voila, fossil.

Depending on geographic location even today, the types of flora and fauna available vary, as do the layers (numbers of and depth of)of rock beneath the surface or currently eroding on the surface. Since the geologic column contains very few earth-wide events, it is obvious that the lack of one species in one place does not preclude its existence in another.

People should be willing to deal with good *solid* science wherever the evidence eventually leads. Anything else is philosophizing. I'm not more willing to take that as fact than I would be the crazy speculations of a COG leader.

I hope to live to long enough to see fact based conclusions.

Corky,I said you could have the last word and you ...

2007-06-27T01:55:00.000+12:00

Corky,

I said you could have the last word and you can. I'm just hoping people will do more research than their high school or college biology texts.

is it time to panic?If there ever was a time, this...

2007-06-27T00:36:00.000+12:00

is it time to panic?

If there ever was a time, this is it.

Yes, yes you should. We all should.

it will be interesting to see what he plans for hi...

2007-06-27T00:35:00.000+12:00

it will be interesting to see what he plans for his third term

Not gonna happen.

We will have to wait and see whether the Illuminati has picked someone who will bake cookies in a frilly apron while her husband goes off and takes care of foreign affairs or if we get Law and Order reruns on a different channel.

Or is there another member of the Yale Skulls available we don't know about. After all, they are a secret organization and we know less about them than the Illuminati.

Or should we believe one ruddy thing we see on the History Channel?

Watch to see what comes next.

I'd say the United States will get a woman in as president around the same time the WCG has a woman Pastor General. Equal 50/50 chances. The WCG has always seemed to match the United States. For example, the Nixon debacle broke around the time of revelations about GTA. Other eerie coincidences have also occurred, but we're not sure episodes of Babylon 5 count.

It's probably even more amusing if your half a word away watching from down under across the really big pond -- that classic peaceful ocean.

Charlie said: "You can transpose an image of that ...

2007-06-26T23:19:00.000+12:00

Charlie said: "You can transpose an image of that moron from Iran and the other one @ 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and get a near perfect match...minus the beard."

That thought crossed my mind as well back when. It's spit and whistle until this dangerous administration is gone. Not that that will change much since a CIA guy told me once you won't be a mature American until you realize Presidents are not elected, they are selected. Feels a bit like 1930's these days except GWB can't even get the planes to be on time. Worst President and man in the history of America to be one.

Probably just me but as NostraDennis, it will be interesting to see what he plans for his third term.

You can disprove evolution easily. Just find a fos...

2007-06-26T15:41:00.000+12:00

You can disprove evolution easily. Just find a fossil of a human during the Jurassic age rock strata. Or find any modern animal or plant fossil in the rock strata during the pre-cambrian period.

Good luck, you'll be famous if you do . . . remember us poor folks when you get rich.

Dennis: On second thought, given some of the peopl...

2007-06-26T14:09:00.000+12:00

Dennis: On second thought, given some of the people running this world, perhaps we do have a simian ancestry! :)

You can transpose an image of that moron from Iran and the other one @ 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue and get a near perfect match...minus the beard.

Charlie said: "Not a solid foundation for a belief...

2007-06-26T10:11:00.000+12:00

Charlie said: "Not a solid foundation for a belief system... Fire away."

You crazy hairless ape! What is a solid foundation? The all keep moving! :)

Corky,If the state and federal governments made ch...

2007-06-26T08:34:00.000+12:00

Corky,

If the state and federal governments made churches even just pay property taxes, most would fold as soon as the endowments were used up...Not that I want to see it happen, but that is the truth, many churches are survivng on endowments as weekly / monthly / annual giving is on the decline.

You bring up up the reactions of believers to atheists. I'll plead guiltly to this one myself. IMO many, if not most atheists are simply good folk that have left one ditch for another. Let me explain: (Using Christians as an example)

Step 1 - You grew up listening to preachers rail on and on about how this, that, and the other thing happened, only to realize at one point later in life, that they offered little or no proof and a whole lot of opinion, hypothesis, and theories.

Step 2 - Abandon previous belief in a higher being based on rejecting what you were taught without doing any real in depth research of your own.

Step 3 - Take up a new philosophy / belief system (Atheism / Evolutionism) based on little or no proof and a whole lot of opinion, hypothesis, speculation, and theories based on what you were taught in your biology classes in high school and college, without doing any real in depth research of your own...only now you are smug about it.

The bible contains a lot of errors is is a deeply flawed text. Not a solid foundation for a belief system

Evolution / Abiogenesis is a deeply flawed theory. Not a solid foundation for a belief system.

(Before everyone starts firing back, let me just say this and you can all have the last word: First of all I am referring to Macro evolution, not micro. Secondly, anyone with a modest knowledge of thermodynamics, genetics, reproduction, and geology is aware of the problems in evolutionary theory. However, when confronted by the evidence or lack thereof, they just come up with a new theory to fill in the gaps...That isn't science.)

Fire away.

I think we are missing a few key points here:- The...

2007-06-26T08:04:00.000+12:00

I think we are missing a few key points here:

- The Protestant churches and to a lesser extent Catholic churches in predominantly white middle class areas are dying in America (Just the the XCG's)for a couple of glaring reasons:

1) Middle to upper class suburbia are having fewer children and having them later in life

2) 18-30 year olds typically attend little more than Easter and Christmas services until they marry and begin to have children...and not all come back.

3)The larger protestant denominations are imploding from within due to leadership. Scripture is being cast aside in favor of what is politically correct / popular. I believe this is being done in part to try and fill the pews...It isn't working...and it is chasing the long time members away little by little.

4) Religious idiocy and bigotry - Since most of us were members of the WCG at one time or another we have heard more than our fair share of, to be nice, "Stupid" things said by the local pastors and members. It is no different in parts of the USA where some preacher or deacon with more wind than sail, espouses things that defy logic, reason, and sensibility which result in the hemorrhaging of additional members.

Conversely - lower income families of all colors are still having large families with or without benefit of steady income, opportunity, or a more or less steady father. Muslims are reproducing at an only marginally slower rate than rabbits.

It's funny how Jesus is always broke. I think mayb...

2007-06-26T07:23:00.000+12:00

It's funny how Jesus is always broke. I think maybe he needs some new accountants in his employ.

More and more, people are turning away from Christendom. The literalist fundamentalists are becoming an embarrassment to the mainstream.

A lot of people don't say so but they are unbelievers just the same. Even more are becoming skeptical about their religion, their God and miracles.

There is a certain stigma attached to being "atheist" in America. Just the word itself brings out the hate in believers. I can say that I'm a "freethinker" all day long and no one will even raise an eyebrow and it really means the same thing by implication.

Agnostic, well that's okay too, but "atheist"? Ewwwww bad! Everyone knows that atheists worship the devil, eat little children and are always persecuting "christians".

What? You haven't seen all those atheists picketing churches, putting up atheist billboards, demonstrating with hate signs at soldier's funerals, trying to take freedom of religion away from christians by insisting on their rights not to be preached to and prayed over in schools etc. etc.?

Yes, I will be glad when church buildings are turned into help centers, youth centers, senior centers etc. Hell, I'd be satisfied for right now if they had to pay taxes like the rest of us do.