Comments on Ambassador Watch: TIME archives sorry tale

Tom said: "Unlike many of the other TV evangisli...

2007-11-16T13:25:00.000+13:00

Tom said: "Unlike many of the other TV evangislists, who ask for money and solicit for members, WCG ministers never once asked for money or coerced anyone into attending services. And you know this is the TRUTH."

Actually the opposite is the truth. Those of us who have a WCG background can clearly remember booklets on the subject and articles on Sabbath attendance and tithing and offerings. Then there were the countless sermons and sermonettes all designed to coerce us to attend services regularly and to pay all tithes exactly and give offerings until it hurt. That was coercion. Then there was the threat of losing our salvation and being disfellowshipped if we failed to comply with the tithing laws and Sabbath laws. I still remember the truth, and it is not what you claim it to be.

Thomas Munson

The Torah, Bible, and Koran:Three books that have ...

2007-11-15T05:22:00.000+13:00

The Torah, Bible, and Koran:

Three books that have spawned thousands of sects, hundreds of wars, and millions of deaths...Because no two can agree.

If God is not the author of confusion, then who 'inspired' these books?

Maybe the deists have it right.

>>>Observant Jews want nothing to do with your Jes...

2007-11-15T04:01:00.000+13:00

>>>Observant Jews want nothing to do with your Jesus ... Stop the religious bull sh!t, please.

Jews rightly point out the inconsistencies of the Jesus movement and have written many books explaining why Jesus is not the Messiah. The Jews will never accept Jesus as the Messiah and view modern day Christianity as pagan forms (they support Herbert Armstrong's view) and part of Greek Hellenised culture.

The Torah fobids any gentile from observing Jewish laws according to Rabbinical Judaism and Rabbis are permitted to restrain any gentile that is observing the Shabbat.

The Jews point out that if you are going to follow Jesus then you have to obey the rules of the Torah like Jesus did. (There they agree with Herbert Armstrong).

Now do the Jews accept some that believe in Jesus and obey the Torah? The answer is yes. But the movement is not within Christianity or even Messianic Judaism -- both are viewed as heretic movements by Orthodox Jews.

The Orthodox Jews only recognise one movement. It is called the Netzarim. (www.netzarim.co.il) founded by a former baptist minister now teaches Orthodox Judaism founded on the principles of Ribbi Yeshua. They view Apostle Paul as heretical only accepting the book of Matthew as authentic gospel.

Another group (www.nesarim.org) note what they say:

"The word "Nesarim" is a transliterated Hebrew plural form of the word "Nazaraean". Some within the Orthodox Yemenite and some other Jewish communities recognise the true Nesarim as the legitimate followers of Rabbi Yeshua as opposed to the "Western Church" which they refer to as the "nosrim" (notzerim) - the fake followers of a fake "christ".

The word "Nesarim" points back to the Holy City of Jerusalem - to Rabbi Yeshua and to Ya'aqub ha'Tzadik whom Rabbi Yeshua appointed. The Nesarim existed before the excommunication of the gentile churches in 318 CE."

As the Netzarim movement is a branch of Judaism (not Christianity under Pauline theology) that professes a Messianic role for Yeshua it is recognised by Jews.

Sometimes the truth hurts especially when the Jews agree with Herbert Armstrong's view of Matthew 5 writing about the hypocritcal way Chrisians live and behave. The Jews aren't stupid they can see through the Christmas tinsel of lies and deceit.

Robert said (and is starting to saith) :The Jews o...

2007-11-14T14:15:00.000+13:00

Robert said (and is starting to saith) :

The Jews only take exception when Christian missionary groups try to convert Jews.

They don't take exception when gentiles are following Jesus and obeying the Torah.

Excuse me?

Observant Jews want nothing to do with your Jesus.

You are either yanking all our cranks here. Or you are a total Christian no-nothing, trying to fit in with their covenant. And they will never accept you as a Goim into it. That "free" bowl of soup has gone to your head (or had something else in it).

Stop the religious bull sh!t, please.

Lussenheide said... Much speculation in these a...

2007-11-14T11:14:00.000+13:00

Lussenheide said...

Much speculation in these articles about who would be the "heir apparent" of the Armstrong Empire riches.

Rader...GTA...Cole...Meredith???

Nah, some drop out named Joe Tkach Jr., an occasional speaker in Phoenix Arizona.

Joe Jr is not a drop-out and never was. He's very bright, has to have an IQ above 150. He was also quite a good athelete and would skunk most people on the raquetball court.

He was a graduate of both Ambassador and Imperial Schools. He was a product of "the system".

Ron Dart cut him from the ministry payrolls in 1974 when he was married to Jill. That was quite a shock to both Joe and Jill. They got employment working as live in social workers at the Arizona Boys Ranch.

Joe did "drop-out" of the unpaid ministry after Jill left him. He preached occaisionally, and he always preached less than 90 minutes as he always felt if you couldn't say it in 60 minutes you didn't understand your topic.

Trouble comes in threes they say.
But what man wouldn't be a little thrown when their wife finds leaves them for another man? I am not faulting Jill - Joe might have had it coming. I never witnessed him beating Jill, another accusation I think is baseless. Fault the guy for the things he did do if you want, but don't invent things.

Joe, for a time, looked a bit like Bluto from Animal House, especially with that (pre-hair transplant) red bandana around his forehead like a Biker.

If I could be odds maker bookie back in 1977 I might have given 3 to one odds on any of the above.

Joe Tkach Jr???, I would have easily given away 100 MILLION to ONE odds. A penny bet on Joey would return $1 Million!

Funny how life turns out, and how the future will always hold surprises!

Lussenheide

You think what's transpired is surreal, how do you think those of us who knew both feel?

Especially that ridiculous UCG Cabal accusation they had some 20 year plan to liberalize the WCG.

I was on the Tarver ranch porch in Arizona the same night Joe Tkach Sr was talking about going into chicken farming and quitting the ministry because of "rampant liberalism" within the WCG. The underground movement against the GTA changes was in full foment, and the Tkach's were every bit as much insiders on that as Meridith and McNair. Unlike those two, his father had some guts when it came to the receivership. That's what caught HWA's eye.

Sorry...they were just as right wing as everyone else.

There were two events that turned Joe Jr around from the downward spiral after loosing his first wife, it was meeting Tammy (still a very sweet woman), and it was seeing his dad promoted by HWA.

What happened to him between 1982 and 1994, I don't know. Perhaps he got a sense of entitlement? He's not the same man I knew in the early days.

I remembered him as the man people would turn to in late 1970s if they had a real problem and didn't want to be ridiculed by some other minister. Joe used to know what it was like to be trashed by the ministry.

Also Tom as a reminder if you are one of the elect...

2007-11-14T08:09:00.000+13:00

Also Tom as a reminder if you are one of the elect:

"For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: "

"Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Col 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond [nor] free: but Christ [is] all, and in all.

Col 3:12 ¶ Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also [do] ye.

Col 3:14 And above all these things [put on] charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him."

Tom said:So today, anyone may buy a bible, but onl...

2007-11-14T07:33:00.000+13:00

Tom said:
So today, anyone may buy a bible, but only God's elect is able to understand it.

You are one of the elect??

Interesting. How did you figure that out?

"Also, all the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John are personal letters to the members of the church"

And they happened to have your address handy.

Congratulations.

How nice for you.

Why are you wasting your precious time amongst those you consider tares?

Of course Jesus did mingle among sinners too.

He must be as proud of you, as you are, of you.

Tom wrote:>>>The extract from Lipton's psychologic...

2007-11-14T07:29:00.000+13:00

Tom wrote:
>>>The extract from Lipton's psychological ramble is not worth commenting on. Suffice to say, that you are drawn to his writings because they articulate and confirm opinions you already hold.<<<

It's Robert Jay Lifton, not "Lipton"
Sorry to hear you find his writing unworthy of your commenting.
Anyway, I came to understand how destructive cults operate as a result of reading his and others' writings on the subject. It's not that I already understood cult dynamics. In fact, it was only as a result of looking into a "self-help" group that had nothing to do with the WCG that I came across information about how cults operate.

An ironic thing here, is that you would likely say, "yes!" if an analysis were made applying Lifton's criteria to an organization that you don't like.

Or, maybe not, I really don't know. Perhaps you'd attribute people joining orgs you don't like to their own stupidity or to Satan's influence.

What I have learned is that people who are intelligent and of the best of intentions can be recruited into destructive cults. Such orgs use methods which keep a person from making an informed decision, and keep one from thinking critically.

For many "fans" of Radio/Worldwide, these arguments will fall on deaf ears, and that planting fears in a person of looking at "other" viewpoints is seen as a good thing, since those "other" views are seen as other than the Truth.
And the process of drawing a person in carefully and slowly, because he's not able to swallow it all at once, is not seen as a tactic that destructive cults use for recruitment and manipulation. It's seen by cult members as a necessary "milk before the meat" thing, rather than a frog put in the pot of water on the stove thing. After all, the cult members have the Truth that the rest of the world NEEDS.

I realize that you truly believe that you and the few that believe as you do have something so very special that this world desperately needs.

It seems that you have traded your freedom for the luxury of feeling superior.

Charlie said . . .I see signs of an abusive husban...

2007-11-14T06:56:00.000+13:00

Charlie said . . .

I see signs of an abusive husband and father in your (Tom's) postings.

I do too. I've only seen one other of those family only churches. The father (leader of the group) is as crazy as a loon. I'm thinking that's the case here too.

Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist Church is an example of one of those family churches, foaming at the mouth lunatics.

Tom said: "So today, anyone may buy a bible, but o...

2007-11-14T06:50:00.000+13:00

Tom said: "So today, anyone may buy a bible, but only God's elect is able to understand it. So it would a fruitless exercise to post any of the undiluted doctrines of the bible to you, as you won't be able to understand them."

I didn't ask you to post one of your doctines, I asked you to clarify what you mean *exactly* by undiluted.

Tom said: "Since feeling sorry for my family makes you feel superior, I will flatter you just a little and pass your sympathy unto them."

I don't feel superior, my sympathy for them is sincere.

I was born into the WCG so I had no choice in the matter. The few bright spots I can recall growing up under armstrong's nasty theology are far outweighed by the bad. That isn't to say my parents were or are bad parents, quite the opposite. The WCG is directly responsible for many things in my life that my family really could have done without and that is as kindly as I can state that. They had, after all, 'proved' what they needed to prove in order to join and afterward 'submitted' to authority lest they lose their eternal salvation, therein lies the hook. The church *did* expect you to shut off your ability to discern things lest you 'lean on your own understanding'.

Charlie>>>Thank you for the clarification Tom...Yo...

2007-11-14T06:10:00.000+13:00

Charlie

>>>Thank you for the clarification Tom...Your family has my sympathy as you are truly an island unto yourself.<<<

Since feeling sorry for my family makes you feel superior, I will flatter you just a little and pass your sympathy unto them.

>>>I know you don't want to "Cast your pearls before swine" but if you would be so kind as to elaborate just a little on exactly what you mean by the "undiluted" teachings of the bible, I would be ever so grateful.<<<

The bible is an exclusive, private book. Under the OT dispensation, it was originally given to the people of Israel. Later, under the NT dispensation, it was exclusively given to the church. Jesus told his disciples: "I have chosen you, you have not chosen me." And in another place he told them: "It is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to those on the outside it is not given." Also, all the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, Jude and John are personal letters to the members of the church. They were not public publications, like Time magazine.

Of course, as the gospel spread throughout the Roman world, the bible was copied and made available to the heathen, who were planted by Satan in the church, as tares amongst the wheat.

So today, anyone may buy a bible, but only God's elect is able to understand it. So it would a fruitless exercise to post any of the undiluted doctrines of the bible to you, as you won't be able to understand them.

There you go the Jews agree with Herbert Armstrong...

2007-11-14T06:06:00.000+13:00

There you go the Jews agree with Herbert Armstrong (with the exception of british israelism) that the Torah is to be followed the followers of Jesus.

The Jews only take exception when Christian missionary groups try to convert Jews.

They don't take exception when gentiles are following Jesus and obeying the Torah.

I have met many Jews, a few in Brooklyn New York. I told them I was a Christian following Jewish laws, they thought it was great.

I have met an Orthodox Chabad Jew in London whose cousin he told me was a Messianic Jew. The Orthodox Jew actually gave me a free bowl of soup from the shop he was working in, and invited me back anytime, he also said if I wanted to study Judaism he would help me.

I know people have a very negative view of Jews in general but they took time to speak to me, did not judge me and offered me help.

A JEWISH RESPONSE TO THE GENTILE LAW QUESTION.In t...

2007-11-14T05:55:00.000+13:00

A JEWISH RESPONSE TO THE GENTILE LAW QUESTION.

In the book, The Real Messiah, in the section marked, Was Jesus the Messiah by Pinchas Stolper:

"Jesus claimed that he did not intend to change the Laws of Moses .. (Matthew 5). Later on he himself abrogated some of the laws, while his followers eventually abolished or changed nearly all of them.

"However the Torah itself clearly states in many places that its laws are eternal, never to be abolished. And even the Christians acknowledge that the Jewish Bible is the word of G-d. If the Torah is eternal and Jesus himself claims to have no intention of abolishing or changing it, why do the Christians celebrate the Sabbath on Sunday when G-d clearly calls the Saturday-Sabbath an Eternal Covenant? Why do Christians eat pig when the Torah forbids it? What reason can Christians give for not celebrating Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur which are clearly spelled out in the Torah? This same argument applies to hundreds of other Torah laws that are ignored by some Christians.

"On the other hand, Christians and Easter are not mentioned in either the Jewish Bible or the Christian New Testament. --these festivals are "pagan" in origin, adapted for Christian use. But Pesach, Sukkos and Shavuos are clearly spoken of in the Bible. On top of which, Jesus nowhere requests that the Biblical festivals no longer be observed"

Tom said: "I hope this clarifies where I stand, an...

2007-11-14T03:43:00.000+13:00

Tom said: "I hope this clarifies where I stand, and it corrects your errorneous assumptions."

Thank you for the clarification Tom...Your family has my sympathy as you are truly an island unto yourself.

I know you don't want to "Cast your pearls before swine" but if you would be so kind as to elaborate just a little on exactly what you mean by the "undiluted" teachings of the bible, I would be ever so grateful. There are a great many teachings in the Bible that are primitive and barbaric. I know what undiluted means, but I'm hopeful that in actuality you really don't apply the Bible to your life that way, or more specifically to your wife and children.

I see signs of an abusive husband and father in your postings.

Robert said:You see unless you show me all the scr...

2007-11-14T02:15:00.000+13:00

Robert said:

You see unless you show me all the scriptures you use, go into the original languages, get the original meaning and intent, know the society and its customs, you can prove anything from the Bible. We all know that.

This is why the Bible has little or no value when it comes to trying to determine which is the "right" way to live. For almost every scripture you can pull out to justify why you do what you do (e.g. Sabbath keeping) I can quote you one that commands the opposite.

And while you may want to argue semantics, languages, original meanings (of which many are long lost in antiquity) all you are doing is adding to the religious confusion out there.

And you still have not figured out that the covenant of the Jews was for the Jews, and only the Jews. You get no brownie points with God for trying to abide by it, if you are a Gentile. In fact, the Jews laugh at you for trying. And they are not very happy with you "appropriating" their holy days either, in the name of your god.

From a practical point of view it makes sense to have one day off from work.

I hope that you are following through with your convictions and working either 7 days a week . . .

Actually, I like the two days off I currently receive. :-) And if I am ever required to work on the weekend I no longer have to look like some religious crack pot and deny the request.

Personally, I don't care if you work one day per week, and rest the other six. Because as you said, you can prove anything you want to from the Bible. And that being the case, and since I think religion should be a private affair, then you should keep all this to yourself. Debating religion is like debating the best flavor of ice cream.

Robert>>>Tom is only involved in Armstrongism beca...

2007-11-13T22:29:00.000+13:00

Robert

>>>Tom is only involved in Armstrongism because it is the only type of religion that he studies. He surrounds himself with literature from the splinter groups, he goes to church services, and he automatically dismisses anything not connected within his own body of doctrine.<<<

I don't get or read any from literature any of spliter groups. I do not attend any church or meet with any group.

I conduct Sabbath services and regular bible studies with my family in privacy of my home, and attend the FOT with my family.

It is true that I am not interested in any other religion, but Christianity. But by Christianity, I don't mean Catholism, Protestanism or any other brand Christianity that was invented by men. I mean that I believe in the undiluted teachings of the bible.

I don't know what is meant by Armstrongism, so I can't comment on it.

I hope this clarifies where I stand, and it corrects your errorneous assumptions.

Anon>>>I do believe the WCG calculatedly tried to ...

2007-11-13T22:02:00.000+13:00

Anon

>>>I do believe the WCG calculatedly tried to recruit people in a way that tended to usurp a person's ability to make an informed decision and use critical thinking.<<<

You believe? You or I may believe anything, but that doesn't make it true. Where is the evidence to support your belief?

The extract from Lipton's psychological ramble is not worth commenting on. Suffice to say, that you are drawn to his writings because they articulate and confirm opinions you already hold.

No one here can honestly say that he was recruited into WCG. For even after potential members requested a visit from a minister, they were not invited to church until the minister was sure that they had understood the basic teachings of the church.

Unlike many of the other TV evangislists, who ask for money and solicit for members, WCG ministers never once asked for money or coerced anyone into attending services. And you know this is the TRUTH.

Your problem is, you can't come to terms with the fact that there are glaring contradictions in your current position. On the one hand, you know that you were not dragged kicking and screaming into WCG, and on the other, you don't understand how you allowed yourself to be deceived. If indeed you were deceived! So you and cabal find solace in blaming HWA for your deception. Wake up to reality, if you were deceived it was your fault!

Robert, you wrote:"Brainwashed, I hardly think so....

2007-11-13T19:46:00.000+13:00

Robert, you wrote:

"Brainwashed, I hardly think so. We were not brainwashed into any type of religious system because we always had free will. You could argue that our minds were manipulated into believing a set of doctrines or to conform to the status quo."

~Mel

Perhaps "brainwashed" is a colloquialism, yet what I understand it's meaning as, it does fit with the 'mind manipulation' that you seem more agreeable with in the last part of the above quote of yours.

In Robert Jay Lifton's book Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, there is the famous chapter 22, which he prefaces with:

"I wish to suggest a set of criteria against which any environment may be judged - a basis for answering the ever-recurring question: Isn't this just like 'brainwashing'?"

He then proceeds to lay out eight criteria:

1. Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
2. Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
3. Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
4. Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
5. Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
6. Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.
7. Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
8. Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)

Some have written about how the dynamics of the church governed by HWA met these criteria.
For instance, one analysis is at:
www.exitsupportnetwork.com/artcls/lifton.htm

Though I differ with some opinions at the ESN site, I thing they get the job done in making the connection between Lifton's writing and how the WCG acted in people's lives.

I do believe the WCG calculatedly tried to recruit people in a way that tended to usurp a person's ability to make an informed decision and use critical thinking.

I've read some of those old writings recently, and despite HWA saying anything about "proving for one's self", the emphasis was MUCH more on the concept that one was questioning God Himself if one were to question what HWA was teaching.

Anyway, back to what folks like Lifton(and others like Singer, Ross, Ofshe, and Hassan) have written that set criteria which help a person determine if a particular org is a destructive brainwashing cult:

I've found that a picture emerges in reading about destructive, brainwashing cults(and how they operate).

Kind of like folks that say, "Well, if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck."
So, it has become easier for me to see the "duck" of a brainwashing destructive cult when I look back at the WCG of which I was once a part.

Oh, for crying out loud. Read the articles, think,...

2007-11-13T18:58:00.000+13:00

Oh, for crying out loud. Read the articles, think, and move on.

Let Tom puff up his chest and think he has the "undiluted, wholesome teachings of the Bible." That statement alone ought to provide a clue.

The unabashed arrogance continues. "Lord, I thank you that I am not like this poor soul who dares to disagree with me." No mirrors there.

Why argue with people like that? They can have their bizarre, unfeeling, unapologetic system, the jackals.

Wouldn't it really be nice to believe that someone...

2007-11-13T18:24:00.000+13:00

Wouldn't it really be nice to believe that someone had the truth and all the answers? I can certainly understand the motivation which produces "Toms", but man! The blinders you have to wear, and the "other scriptures", and Bible conflicts you must ignore or explain away make it impossible for most people with any degree of intellectual honesty, (or those who are capable of analytical thought) to even think they know the secrets or have the answers. That would be an awfully arrogant position to take, and it's embarrassing to watch!

BB

Getting back to the subject at hand.Gavin said:Rel...

2007-11-13T14:28:00.000+13:00

Getting back to the subject at hand.

Gavin said:
Relive a little history, and then breathe easier knowing that today the Empire is as shattered as Humpty Dumpty.

Not yet…the Empire fell just the same as Humpty Dumpty but someone has been busy gluing the pieces back together again and painting a gloss coat over the cracks. It won’t last but it still buys time for a few more years and several millions of tithe dollars to pass on to “the work”

Take the dead Ted TV program.
Sad to say several hundreds of newbie’s do not know Ted is dead.

I’ve heard from some who have talked to relatives and friends that listen to Ted and can’t believe he is ‘sleeping’ with the fishes.

UCG, LCG, Flurry, Packman, Tkache etc. are still keeping the fairy tale alive even if the glue is thinning out and the cracks are starting to pull apart.

Tom said... “your name remains a mystery to me. Wh...

2007-11-13T13:25:00.000+13:00

Tom said...

“your name remains a mystery to me. Who are you hiding from?

You correctly addressed me the first time you responded to me.
I responded back out in the open for all to read…how is that hiding?

Let’s see if we can solve the mystery of “Tom”

Tom is short form of Thomas (Aramaic) "twin" ... one of the 12 apostles known as "doubting Thomas" as he has an unusual mixture of pessimism and zealous faith. Some say his full name was Judas Thomas (Judas the Twin), and the nickname distinguished him from Judas Iscariot.

So maybe you are using an alias in the form of Tom the doubter full of pessimism for the old Armstrong ways, yet zealous for your 'mystery' faith.

Or are you a twin who would like to think himself an apostle…....

One can speculate on any number of reasons for a nom de plume.

Moose

Tom said . . ."your name remains a mystery to me. ...

2007-11-13T10:00:00.000+13:00

Tom said . . .
"your name remains a mystery to me. Who are you hiding from?"

I would say that's none of your business but it was only meant to be a dodge, not an artful dodge, but a dodge just the same.

It's typical of all the religious nuts on the Internet forums and blogs - duck, run, dodge and repeat nonsensical remarks like a broken record.

"In general, these philosophies appealed to people...

2007-11-13T09:29:00.000+13:00

"In general, these philosophies appealed to people with low self-esteem and told them that they were important."

Exactly. I can attest to that. You can also add people who inherently distrust the world around them, who feel that they are right in some way that the rest of the world isn't. Armstrongsim was heady wine for me. I loved the notion that I was going to be a Master of the Universe.

Paul

Brainwashed, I hardly think so. We were not brainw...

2007-11-13T08:40:00.000+13:00

Brainwashed, I hardly think so. We were not brainwashed into any type of religious system because we always had free will. You could argue that our minds were manipulated into believing a set of doctrines or to conform to the status quo.

Tom is only involved in Armstrongism because it is the only type of religion that he studies. He surrounds himself with literature from the splinter groups, he goes to church services, and he automatically dismisses anything not connected within his own body of doctrine.

I might be pro Sabbath but certainly no Armstrongite. You could say, Messianic, is a better term for me. There is no church of God teaching the truth today. They all preach a mixture of truth and error. So I ditched the lot of them and now study Judaism and Messianic Judaism.

Tom just doesn't know what he is missing out on.