the painful truth about the worldwide church of god

Shootout With Grant Spong
 

The following email exchange took place in March of 2001.  Former WCG minister Grant Spong initiated it with a request that his name be removed from the "Hall of Shame" on this website.  The rest followed automatically.


3/5/01

Hi,

Since I have been unkindly thrown away by Worldwide Church of God, tossed out of service like a piece of unwanted garbage, and am no longer one of their pastors, you may wish to take me off your list.

Blessings, Grant Spong.

 REPLY: 

Perhaps you would like to apologize to all those whose lives were screwed up by yourself or by those you endorsed and supported, by signing the Apology Page? Then your name can be removed.

Would you still be working for them if they hadn't thrown you away? If so, then that is not exactly the repentant attitude that we are looking for.

Editor

 REPLY: 

Hi,

I'm sorry you feel that way. You are not my judge. You don't know my heart. You don't know that I preached strongly that HWA was a false prophet, that Worldwide Church of God was a cult, and that I would refuse to preach any Armstrongism. Perhaps that is why I am no longer a pastor with Worldwide Church of God. Perhaps my messages were too direct and blunt for some. All of us were deceived. You don't know the pain we suffered. You only seem to assume that members suffered at the hand of pastors, not the other way around. Yet, many of us (pastors and lay members) who worked for reform within the church suffered at the hands of others. There were those of us who apologized to our congregations for our sins, and remained and worked for change from within. There were lay members who apologized to their pastors. However, I am still waiting for some to apologize who tried to destroy our lives the past few years. I doubt that will happen, so like Jesus who died for us before we repented, I have chosen to forgive them even though they may not have yet repented. As for my sins? I have chosen other forums to apologize for my sins, and of course I confess to God in private. I have preached apologies and written private letters of apology. I do not choose a priest, a confession booth, or even your forum. All three seem to be in the same category and it just seems wrong. Thank you anyway. Sorry for the trouble. Go ahead and keep your little list. As for me and my household, we choose to forgive and erase all such sins against us.

Blessings, Grant

 REPLY: 

 Yes, I am your judge since I have seen no evidence that any God is going to right any of your wrongs or protect me from being misled by you. Also, since religion is a legal con-game, there is no governmental protection from this scam.

Since I can't look at your heart, and I trust no god to do it, I will look at your actions and judge from them.

On the negative side:

1. You were a minister: Immediate cause for concern.

2. You were a minister for a cult, not exactly credentials that certify you as being able to help people heal from cultic damage.

3. You may still consider yourself a minister, just unemployed. You may still be trying to find another job in this profession.

On the positive side:

1. You preached against herbie.

2. You preached that Worldwide Church of God was a cult and would refuse to preach any Armstrongism.

3. You say you have apologized in person and in letters. (Are you sure that you got to everyone?)

Until you withdraw from any further "preaching" and apologize for ever being a minister of Armstrongism, and publicly apologize for supporting this organization that did so much damage in people's lives, you must remain in The Hall of Shame. If you ministers that have been "trashed" by this business cannot do a proper apology and proper repentance, then just who the hell can? Do you really think that those who are still drawing paychecks from this organization and hoping to divide up the loot for their own retirements are going to apologize to you?

It is believing this crap about forgiving everyone without their even being repentant that leaves you Christians wide open for scam artists, such as the Worldwide Church of God, taking advantage of you. It makes the world no better to allow bad people to get away with doing bad things. You are erasing nothing more than your responsibility to right wrongs and, in so doing, protect others from being taken advantage of also.

You and your house are doing nothing more than enabling those who do wrong in the name of god.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

Editor

See coat_of_lies_2 for ministerial defenses for their lack of accountability.


Hi again,

You're right, my name remains in the hall of shame, as does that of all Christians and their churches. All Christians are wrong and all churches are cults to one degree or another. All churches are abusive and in desperate need of someone to pay the penalty for their sins. The churches do not save anyone from their sins. Thankfully, we have a God who loved us so much that he died for us. Sadly, you don't even have that at the present time because you reject it. What you don't understand is that you too have screwed up royally, deeply hurt some people's lives and desperately need to apologize. What you also don't understand is that you don't need to carry the guilt any more, because a substitute carries it for you and me, leaving us both uncondemned and without shame. You cannot condemn that which no longer carries condemnation in the highest court in the universe. In the end all the damage you and I have done will be undone. There is no other way. God does exist, and he loves you. He does not condemn you or me for our pasts, but seeks to heal and erase the pain.

Blessings, Grant.

REPLY:

Well, it is very convenient for you to put all the blame on someone you cannot even prove ever existed, and, if you could prove he existed, cannot prove was ever a "god" or ever had any power to forgive your sins. Even if you had a god that could forgive your "sins" that is "his" forgiveness, not mine. If you have offended me, I will decide whether you are forgiven or not. I will decide whether I will accept a stand-in for the payment of your offences. You can't just walk away from a traffic accident that you caused and say you put the blame on Jesus.

What does it teach a person if he can do anything he wants, get caught, and have someone else pay the penalty? But, that is what makes Christianity so attractive, isn't it? "Uncondemned and without shame" describes you and your fellow minister types. Rape, pillage, steal, kill, lie, doesn't matter; you are forgiven. The perfect crime. Thank you JESUS!

Your Christian fantasies and fairy tales do not wash with someone who is not a Christian. And, there is much more proof available that there is no god that cares one little shit about humanity than that there is one. See the "Acts of God" page.

Editor

REPLY:

 Hi,

Proof? There are various schools of thought on that score. Modern "proof" tends to be either legal, scientific or empirical. Historically, there are the Greek philosophical schools of thought and their various proof techniques. Other western schools of thought throughout the ages were based to some degree or other on the Greeks. Of course the orientals had their own ideas of proof as well. The bottom line in all that is that proof is only what you or I will accept. As one professor of mine once said, proof is "what it takes to convince you." One man looks at a blade of grass and knows there is a God. Another examines everything a lifetime of education in all fields could teach and remains a skeptic. I guess that you are in the latter category.

I have enjoyed our brief interactions. If you want to discuss this further, I am happy to do so. I don't mind that we disagree. Disagreement can be stimulating and helpful if handled well. We disagree in some fundamental areas, but I have tried to look past your roughness and consider the substance of what you said. It has been interesting. For now I will close our discussion with a little humor: Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists?

Blessings, Grant

REPLY:

YOU WROTE:
Did you know that God doesn't believe in atheists?

REPLY:
Well, I am not an Atheist. I am Agnostic, which means I don't know. And those of you that think you know only deceive yourselves.

I do know one thing: I can prove that Atheists exist. Neither one of us can prove that a caring, concerned God exists. We can wish it. We can hope it. We can have blind faith in it. But all the evidence points to an uncaring, uninvolved god.

Frankly, I'm getting tired of this. Have a good life.

Editor

REPLY:

 Oh, I didn't realize you were agnostic. That's okay. Let me make one last suggestion if I may. Try reading "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel (1998, Harper Collins, Zondervan) a legal approach to proof, and perhaps also "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell (1979, Nelson) a more scientific and statistical approach.

Thank you for your well wishes. I wish you a nice life too.

Blessings, Grant

REPLY:

 And I would suggest that you read "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine and "The God Part of the Brain" by Matthew Alper.

But you won't do it and I have read enough apologies for the lack of proof for the existence of Jesus.......

Editor

REPLY:

Dier Editor!

I vas chust reading der letter from Grant Sponge! You know, der minister from der Vorldvide Church of Gott! I tink he makes a ferry gut point!


I vas also trown avay! I vas a member of der SS during der great Vorld Var Two, und I suffered many hardships during dat time. Ve vere totally misunderstood! Ve vere only following ordersss! Ve tried to do our duty to Gott and der vorld! Und now dere are vebstites all over der vorld dat condemn us for our faithful dedication!


But you are not my judge! You haf no right to accuse me or criticize me for der tings dat I did! I haf already apologized to many of der Juice dat I shot und gassed und hanged! I haf apologized to dem on my knees at nacht, und I know many udder SS men who haf done der same ting! But haf any of der Juice ever apologized to us? NEIN!!!


I am still vaiting for der Juice to apologize to ME!!! After all, I tought I vas doing der right ting! I vas a fictim chust like dem! Vat right do any of you haf to judge me? You do not know mein heart! You do not know dat I vonce told a bad joke about der Furer!!! I haf suffered many tings from der Juice, but I haf forgiven dem, even though most of dem are dead.

Heil Hitler!


OberSturmGruppenFurer#$%&*&%&$$%$%^%$^ John B

Forwarded to Grant Spong.

REPLY:

From: gspong
To: Email
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2001 4:57 AM
Subject: Re: A reader of the PT hit the nail on the head. Better duck!

 Your comparison is unfair and biased. You act as if you have never committed any evil in your life, yet that cannot be true.

However, let's look at your atrocity analogy, even though I disagree with its exaggerated implications. But, let's not just pick on the Germans as if they are the only ones who ever committed an atrocity. This is a typical ploy -the other guys were the bad guys, not us. Why did America bomb German towns -many contained only women and children? That was a war crime in my book. Why do the once victims of the holocaust now commit so many atrocities against someone else? And, the Palestinians also commit atrocities. Why do Americans criticize Germany or Indonesia or Cambodia and yet avoid the shame of their own history? Do you criticize my past, but avoid the shame of your own? Europeans who invaded North and South America have committed perhaps the greatest atrocity of history in destroying 90-98% of American Indians. What justification can you muster for north Americans participating in the kidnapping and enslavement of Irish, Ukranian and eventually African people? What justification can you muster for the persecution of Chinese and Spanish minorities, or the murder of unborn children?

Let's carry your analogy further. The Japanese were wrong in bombing Pearl Harbor, but were we then right in dropping atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki? No, it too was a war crime of the greatest magnitude and against civilian populations. The justification is often: "you committed the first act, so we are right in committing a similar one." Is that your justification now in bombing other people with defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.

Your can be free of your painful past. God loves you. He is not an absentee God. He helped you win the greatest race of your life against millions of other sperm cells. You won, and your gift was a life. Since then he was with you creating a body that now incorporates billions of copies of the original single cell. He gives your heart every beat, and despite the pain you experienced in a stupid cult, he knows you really wanted to please him. Like a son who brought his loving father a gift he didn't ask for nor need, God respects your past efforts even though much of it was unnecessary. God didn't ask for a Sabbath, but you gave him one to show him your love. How you are in pain. God knows your pain, and how it expresses itself in anger and bitterness, but he still loves you and gives you trees to look at and a heart that beats. My friend, he does exist, not as a loud radio preacher, but as a still and soft voice waiting for you to listen.

Blessings, Grant

REPLY:

 Well now Grant, I'm sure John will respond and you will have made a new friend but...............

You seem to be saying that, since other people have done bad things, it excuses all the things that you inflicted on your fellow cult members. Not so. There are degrees of responsibility. John was simply pointing out the ridiculousness of your position. What you ministers did to people far exceeds what any of us EVER did, if you want to make comparisons. The really amazing thing is to see your denial and the turning around and pointing at the very people you and your cronies were responsible for virtually destroying their lives and putting the blame back on them because they haven't apologized to you. Incredible.

It is interesting that you continue to make the comparisons to war crimes to justify your own crimes against humanity. I justify NONE of them and put YOU and your CRONIES in the same pot with them and you can all boil together. If only there were a Hell so there would be some type of punishment for all you and your kind have done. But don't worry, Jesus will forgive you and you can live forever with Him while those you have damaged will rot in Hell for our lack of blind forgiveness.

Your mindless spouting of the "God loves you" crap shows just how little touch you have with reality. Go to the Acts of God page and show me god's love for these millions of people some of whom you even reference. Then I will believe in a caring god. I don't say that there is no god. I say that, if there is a god, he is an eight year old god and we are his science project. He cares no more for us than does a little kid pulling the wings off of flies.

Before you spout off your mindless memorized mouthings about how God cares so much for all of us poor fools writhing in endless bitterness, perhaps you would like to offer some PROOF to back up your statements. Hmmmmmmmm???????? Well, I guess I will not hold my breath for that since we both know that the only proof that you have is your blind faith. And that faith and $1.50 will buy you a cup of coffee.

Yeah, we won the sperm race and now we are winning the race away from you and your brothers in crime as you wallow in your self pity and self righteousness and lack of true repentance. You wouldn't know what humbleness or repentance were if they hit you over the head.

Editor

 REPLY:

I am not a murderer John.  Don't put me in that category.

You compare me to a murderous Nazi because I joined a cult like you did. We were both fools not murderers. Should I now compare you to those same Nazis or others who murdered Christians because you now fight against Christianity? The comparisons are ludicrous. Your analogy is stupid, illogical and ridiculous.


Blessings, Grant.

 REPLY:

I am not John and I do not call you a murderer but what you and your cronies did was and is in the spirit of murder. Deaths, many deaths, occurred because of this system that you were a leader in. People committed suicide because of your or your administration's decisions and teachings. You are responsible.

Lives were changed negatively because of what you and your cronies did. You ruined lives. You changed lives, irretrievably. You did, in effect "murder" all those that would have been born if you had not intervened with your negative input into people's lives. You don't seem to understand the immensity of what you are responsible for.

As I have said before, it is a wonder that more of you guys are not committing suicide but it is probably more a credit for the selection process for you "ministers" that weeded out all those that might have a conscience.

Editor

  REPLY:

 How many lives are being ruined by what you are doing? How many want to commit suicide because of what you have done? Certainly you are right, my ministry was in many ways worthless, but I know of none who committed suicide by what I personally did. It is illogical to lump us all together simply because the theology was not orthodox. Rather, my ministry saved several from suicide.

As far as orthodoxy and heresy are concerned, I believe heresy is just a minority opinion. The problem I have with Christianity is not God or Jesus, but human abuses which are rife throughout. The disagreement I have with you is not that Christianity has so little grace, but that outside of Christianity there is no grace at all.

You are being dishonest. You don't just lable Armstrongism as cult-like but all Christianity. I don't accept your argument that on the one hand Armstrongism caused people problems, but the rest of Christianity did not. Rather Christianity period, has a lot to answer for over two thousand years of wrongful persecutions and corruption. You say Christianity is wrong; I say it is wrong, but for different reasons. You say it is fundamentally wrong as a concept; I say the concept is right but Christians are wrong.

Grant

  REPLY:

 And to think that those such as yourself were given the responsibility to counsel troubled members and potential members.........

I hope that I have ruined many lives of the "ministry" by making them get off the gravy train and go out and get honest jobs. If anyone committed suicide because they read The Painful Truth, they did it because they found out the truth about the Worldwide Church of God and its corrupt, dysfunctional ministry. If any have done that, it is regrettable, but I think the blame lies with those who misled not those who tell the truth. I would rather think that many more have found truth and freedom preferable to lies and slavery.

Just because you do not accept my point that ALL Christianity is a cult does not make me dishonest. I also never said that the rest of Christianity did not do horrible things. I have said that that fact does not give YOU an excuse to do the same things. You know what? I don't think you can read very well.

Now, as I said before, I have grown tired of corresponding with you since I can't seem to penetrate your mindless defenses, religiously built up over the years and blindly vomited out at any who disagree with you. I will no longer be responding to any further email from you.

You may respond to John B. if you wish, if and when he decides to answer you.

I also note that you are no longer "blessing" me. THANKS. I've received enough blessings from your kind to last me a lifetime.

Editor


  REPLY from John B.:

 UnterSturmFuerer Sponge,

Please pay attention! You do not listen very well.

You claim you preached against Herbert Armstrong; perhaps, but you certainly learned his tactics very well. His finest ploy when brainwashing people was to address a subject, then divert attention to something else so that the matter at hand is overlooked. You did that to me. Notice:

You wrote:

let's not just pick on the Germans as if they are the only ones who ever committed an atrocity. This is a typical ploy -the other guys were the bad guys, not us.

Now what the hell does this have to do with anything I said? Huh? Although I find your anti-American bias to be revealing, your paragraph about U.S. atrocities, aside from being laughable, is totally irrelevant. After your tirade, you finished with:

Is that your justification now in bombing other people with defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.

I didn't defame you! I took your side! As one Nazi to another, I completely understand how you feel! (Okay, I was making a point, and a good one. The point is, as you know very well, that any remorse you claim to feel is worthless unless you do something about it. "I'm sorry" is not too much to ask, if you do nothing else. The question is, Are you man enough to say it?)

You wrote:

despite the pain you experienced in a stupid cult,

Ah, so you admit that it is a cult. How wonderful. You were a part of that cult, too. You still would be, apparently, except they "threw you away". Your refusal to admit any culpability tells me that you see nothing wrong with your actions. Only following orders, right?

You wrote:

God didn't ask for a Sabbath, but you gave him one to show him your love.

Wrong. A flamethrower was placed at my head and I was forced to keep the Sabbath. That flamethrower, they said, was loaded with fire and brimstone, and it would bring death for all eternity. I really had no choice. But I'm sure you never gave a sermon about a "commanded assembly", did you?

You wrote:

How you are in pain.

Let me think-No. My pain ended the day I led my family toward the barbed wire, ducked under the searchlights, and crawled three hundred yards to safety. That was nine years ago, and I have been without pain ever since. Lots of fear, followed by rage, but those have faded, too. You see, UnterSturmFuerer, time does heal [not all, but many] wounds. As much as you would like to believe I am one of those "most miserable people on the face of the earth", it just ain't true. A lot of others are still suffering, but I am not.

You wrote:

God knows your pain,

So does Bill Clinton. He feels it. But he still stole half my paycheck in taxes and he will continue to live off my taxes for the rest of his natural life. Just as Worldwide ministers sponge off members' tithe money while they grant them crumbs of forgiveness.

And, finally, this:

Blessings, Grant.

Same to you, pal.

Actually, you really are in a tough spot, aren't you? Thrown out of the cult, lost your paycheck. You are accustomed to speaking with authority and none dare contradict you. But now you've lost that, too. Your biblical knowledge and speaking ability are worthless now. You have been removed from the guard tower, your guns are empty, your penis is misfiring, and you are facing the survivors -naked. Not a pretty place to be. You are the one who is hurting, my friend. You are in a lot of pain, and the only weapons you know how to use have been rendered useless.

So what do you do now? Lash out like a cat whose tail is caught in the fan belt? Claw and spit and curse and foam at the mouth as those hollow-eyed survivors who rightfully confront you with your past slowly close the circle around you? Or do you, perhaps for the first time in your life, take a personal inventory, examine yourself, and try to come to grips with the painful truth?

Look, Grant, I don't hate you. I'm not even mad at you. I didn't seek you out. You came to us, remember? But since you brought it up, I spent forty years of my life under Armstrong's terrorist regime. That's four decades, Grant. Forty years in captivity, from age four to age forty-four. I never joined of my own volition. My mother raised me in the cult and I thought Mom was the smartest person in the world. She told me she had proved it, and she was a whole lot smarter than I was. So I believed it, too. Imagine my horror when I found out the whole thing had been a waste of time. Imagine my anger when I realized I had wasted over half my life. Imagine my regret when I thought of the tens of thousands of dollars I had wasted, leaving my children without many of the things that would have made their lives better. And imagine, if you are able, how I feel when you, a card-carrying member of the totalitarian regime that did all that do me, sit back and tell me to forgive, that it doesn't matter, that Jesus will fix everything.

You, personally, have never harmed me. I never even heard of you. But you were part of the system. You didn't do it to me, but you did it to others. I imagine there are several hundred people to whom you owe apologies. On your knees, Grant, with tears in your eyes. If you are a real man, you will seek them out and beg their forgiveness. "Go and sin no more", remember? And make restitution, even if only verbally.

You told the Editor that he is not your judge. That's debatable, but I seem to recall something in the Bible that said every man would be judged according to his works. So I don't judge you, but your works speak volumes (and so does your attitude).

One last thing, Grant: your little rant about Allied atrocities against the Germans and Japanese was very interesting, but just remember this -those acts were committed by people who were trying to free the world, not enslave it. Be careful with those analogies, or they may reveal more about your character than you would have anyone know.

Sieg Heil.

John B


3/18/01

  REPLY from Grant Spong

From: <[email protected]

 John, You learned HWA's tactics better than I, you ass. Look at yourself. Wasting your life attacking something you supposedly left. You're not doing anything effective. If you left it, you left it, but you haven't. You're still wallowing in self-pity and vengeance. Get on with your life man.

 Further mail blocked...

  REPLY

Grant,

Well, you certainly know how to hurt a guy. I'm crushed.

Even though you have blocked further communication, I will take the time from my wallowing and suffering and attacking to respond to your eloquent and Christlike communication.

Yes, I did learn HWA's tactics quite well. I was a victim of them for forty years. I imagine that many Jews in the death camps also learned Hitler's tactics very well, if they lived long enough. But that didn't make them the bad guys, did it? They were not the ones with the power over their enemies. And neither was I.

But you were.

I've never met you, Grant, and I don't know the first thing about you, your habits, your personality. But from your emails I can deduce quite a lot. First of all, you are walking under a tremendous load of guilt. It's eating you alive from the inside out, but you are so deep in denial that you refuse to admit that guilt is what you really feel.

Second, you feel terribly helpless and alone. You contacted the Painful Truth to get your name removed from the Hall of Shame. (I remind you once again, Grant, you contact us, not the other way around.) But you are not willing to face up to your past and offer a simple apology. Rather, you want us to apologize to you! How patently fucking absurd!

Third, (and this opinion is based solely on your letters), you appear to be a bully. For however many years you were in the ministry you were DA MAN! No one could touch you. No one could argue with you. No one could disagree with you. No one could disobey you. You had the ultimate power, and anyone who disobeyed you was put to "death". You are used to winning, aren't you? You have no concept of give and take, of playing fair. You simply do not play well with others. And now you waltz into our living room and expect to start spitting orders that we will follow to the letter.

You really hate the Nazi analogy, don't you? Maybe that's because it is such a perfect fit. Nothing illuminates Worldwide tactics better than a close look at Nazi Germany. And why not? Armstrong admired Hitler. Hoeh was reportedly a Nazi sympathizer. And the ministry was trained in blind obedience, exactly like the SS was. Authoritarian, totalitarian despotism from the top down, pyramid style, with the people underneath all that crushing weight. You were part of the pyramid, Grant. In your heart, I believe you still are.

And just like the defeated Nazis, you blame others. "It vasn't my fault! I had to kill all dose Juice! I didn't hate dem, but I had to do it!"

You know what, Grant? Any murdering, raping, pillaging asshole can oppress other people, but it takes a real man to apologize.

You know what else? It doesn't hurt. It doesn't cost anything. It doesn't even take very long. How much breath does it take to say "I'm sorry"? And after you do, it feels really good!

Bad people never apologize. Guilty people never apologize. Satan never apologizes.

And apparently, neither will you.

John B


Dear Editor,

I hope that responses to Grant aren't getting too old for you. Here one of about five from me:

Dear Grant - Former Minister of Fraud,

You wrote:
The justification is often: "you committed the first act, so we are right in committing a similar one." Is that your justification now in bombing other people with defamation and slander? No, you are not justified. They were wrong, and now you are wrong, but in Jesus you can be made right.

It again needs to be pointed out that defamation of character is to tell LIES about someone. If what is being said is TRUE, you are NOT defaming that person. You are simply sharing what may be useful information to other would-be suckers.

Think about it. There are laws regarding slander. Do you believe for a moment that the leadership of the various Armstrong cults would not take the editors of the Painful Truth and before that, the Ambassador Report to court to obtain an injunction to stop publication if they could prove that what is being written is actually lies?

Do you honestly believe those religious barracudas are "turning the other cheek" because they believe it is the Christian thing to do? Unlikely. More than likely, it is because there is no way in hell the church's of god want their filthy business laundry exposed to the light of day in court.

Think about it. They would have to prove in court that there have never been financial improprieties, hypocritical sexual misconduct; medical counseling that resulted in an unnecessary premature death, verbal abuse from the pulpit that resulted in suicide, and on and on it would go. There would be so many people lined up as witnesses willing to testify against them it would be a media circus!

If anything that has been written in the Painful Truth that you believe to be slander, the challenge for you is to PROVE IT!

You said "and now you are wrong" for openly discussing the pain and suffering inflicted upon the laity by the church that you were a minister of and accepted healthy paychecks from for many years. Why are we wrong for openly discussing our sorrows? Does it make you feel uncomfortable? If so, why? Is it because what is being said is a lie, or what is being said is the TRUTH? Are you uncomfortable because of the misery you caused as a minister, or that people talking about the acts of Armstrong's ministers makes you feel bad about yourself? Since the tone of your correspondence does not suggest much compassion on your part for the injured, one might easily suspect the latter.

Now, what are we supposed to do? Get Jesus, and then get lost? Like it or not, people will stop talking about it when they are ready to stop talking about it. You, and your kind will never force us to navigate the river "denial" again! And Grant, most of us are not looking for justification; we are just looking to ease the pain.

Sincerely,
Dana

3/26/01

Editor,

Our recent brush with exWorldwide minister Grant Spong has given us a rare opportunity. I hope those visiting the PT site will take a closer look at the correspondence; it isn't often that we get such a complete view of ministerial arrogance all at once. I almost think they deserve their own page.

First he contacts you and tells you to take him off your Hall of Shame list. Tells you! As if he has all this power over you. As if to say, "Yes, I know you're out there, I've known it all along, so now you know you're busted."

But you very cordially remind him of the rules: to get his name off the list, he needs to make a public apology. In response, he sneers. "Go ahead and keep your little list!"

Then the most audacious declaration of all. He has already apologized to a few individuals. He has preached against Armstrong. He has been thrown out on his ass. Now it is the lay members who are evil. They are supposed to apologize to him!

At this point I get involved. I shoot off a sarcastic parody of a Nazi SS man who expects the Jews to apologize to him. This really fries Mr. Spong. He really hates this, and now we see a bottle rocket light off in his ass. He is spinning in several directions at once. "Your analogy is unfair!" "You are filled with bitterness and hatred!" "God understands your pain." "Let Jesus help you."

At the very same time, he tries to divert my attention from my main point, going off on some meaningless, ridiculous rant about American atrocities against not only the Germans and Japanese, but also the environment, the Indians, and probably the Eskimos as well. (Some of which is actually true, but is not relevant to the discussion at hand.) This is extremely typical of a guilty person: "Oh, you've got me, haven't you? LOOK OVER THERE!" (while I run away).

You and I both respond, pointing out that he is dodging the issue, that he still owes an apology for his involvement in the oppressive ruling class of the Armstrong cult. But he shows no willingness to face up to this. His arrogance runs too deep, his contempt is too heavy. He is a "man of God", meaning we are automatically wrong. He feels no need to repent, is unwilling to even entertain the idea. He is the victim here, no one else. His final response to me no longer even pretends. "You ass!" he snarls.

Then -and this is truly the ultimate height of self-absorbed arrogance -he blocks further communication! As if we are pursuing him! (I can't say it too often -he came after us! Not the other way around!)

Please notice that at no time does this man answer any of the legitimate charges made against him. Nor will he even discuss them. Throughout, he tries alternating tactics - condescension, humor, even "understanding" (he tries to counsel us) - yet ultimately he believes he is the victim.

Can anyone reading this still think that "most ministers are sincerely trying to do the right thing"? What about personal responsibility? What about personal repentance? What about self-examination (like they told us to do every Passover - which is coming up)? Is the WCG ministry already perfect, blameless before God? Apparently this particular minister thinks so.

Since he is now apparently out of work, perhaps Mr. Spong can go to work for former president Bill Clinton. They are both victims, neither has ever done anything wrong, and both are waiting for apologies from their victims. They should get along together quite well.

John B


A OPEN LETTER TO GRANT, THE GODSQUAD PIMP.

Dear Asshole,

 Your response of arrogance to the readers of this site classifies you as a religious pimp without credentials. I will respond to you in the same certain terms I used with a lover of your mythical god, one John Scott. This pimp pushed Jesus idea's on those who visited the discussion board some time back. After many reminders that "We the People, who wish to develop our own perfection of mind over religion & fear" wish not to endure bible quotes and other unprovable fairy tales, were greeted by deaf ears, that stifled our cries for relief! The opiate of religion was forced upon us!

 The response was as follows" If Jesus exists, and the bible is the word of god, then it follows that this god is a racist uncaring pig that basically don't give a good golly goddamn about mankind! Seeing that my morality is above Gods, because I do love my fellow man and the resulting creation from my loins, my children (who I do not torture and torment with rules and regulations and for the transgression of my laws, unlike armstrongities do unto their offspring) and live a higher morality than the god characterization in the bible, and with this I declare as follows. If Jesus returns:

"We crucified him once and if he comes again, we will crucify him afresh. For this is our service to mankind, for our morality exceeds that of the god's."

One more consideration for you asshole! "For if the morality of man exceeds that of his god, then that god is a creation of mans mind. Hence, a Fairy Tale."

 Your Adversary out of christ,

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