Jack and Jill

 

      Intro:


      Jack and Jill went up the hill

      To fetch a pail of water.

      Jack fell down and broke his crown,

      And Jill came tumbling after. 


      E-mail between Jack and Jill, or if you like between father and son.


      Jack:


      In my 20th. I was on top; clients were mostly University educated people. The Finance Ministers Family came to us. We talk philosophy, government, law, finances, [I had all the answers then. Become a liberal party member I was told. One day I said, "I discovered, scripture has many great ideas for government."


      Jill:


      On my 17th I said it was enough and decided it was time to take my life away from the oppressive way I was being forced to living. I had heard all the arguments, theories, and non of them fit into my life.


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      Jack:


      You can't go that way , people will reject you and it's way. The only way is the worlds way. Compromise, promises, tolerance, let majority do what they want. {There was a time I totally agreed with it, and argued  in its favor.}  I had lots of friends, what is a little compromise if you can benefit from it.  My view was mostly based on personal experience of 20 some years, my success gave me respect and plenty of pride.


      Jill:


      Yes, you got what you wanted, a one way ticket to self exile. You lost most of your business, you lost touch with your family, you lost touch with me, you isolated everyone in your family. This was not a little compromise. You twist words to suite your needs, and you learned well. Where is the benefit of that?  I'm not going to judge you about your age at the time, but I will ask you, do you still think the same today?


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      Jack:


      But to my shock, suddenly History and Prophesy and a analysasition of  ["actions, decisions have consequences.] changed my outlook. I took several month to dig deeper and found shocking proof of what happened over time to nations.   Would we get away with this worlds way???? If yes, why not. I was told.... you will sink.   You have to go with the world, even if you disagree....... They  were right;  we should not have survived. Not have a comfortable retirement.  And even if we know that the world will increasingly harvest what we have sown. We sleep well, we know it will have a good end. Our experience is un-believable.... so why tell it? Unlimited Time, Space, power, knowledge, wealth, peace, joy ..a diff. dimension . Does not need us, our help, our money.  Yet since I was a child it served me. I never really liked church, but I regularly talked to  him "WHO KNOW EVERYTHING".  He is my best friend.


      Jill:


      Prophesy, history, etc... Do you really believe all the lies, (the world will come to an end, and only we will be saved thing) based on a book of stories? I mean, who knows maybe someone in a few years from now will believe "Harry Potter" is the next savior and will use this fantasy story to get people to join them in a crusade to save the world.


      When you start adding up all the lies, strip it all down to it's real essence, what's left. Nothing.


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      Jack:

       

      Can I find any second generation followers of WCG?  Yes: There are  Parents who are still in the WCG or a splinter group who keeps the Sabbath and the Feast days.  Personally we know one such Family and they have children, just a few years older than you. We know the children.  They look happy and love to talk about the next Feast. 


      Jill:


      I can't judge what these people are doing? And I think you're making it a little easy on yourself by saying they look happy. 

      You put on a great face over all these years, covering up all he things you didn't want seen or heard.


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      Jack:


      As I stepped back from the ministry of the WCG,  we still kept contact with some of the members.  Some stayed good friends, other think we will be punished and they have gone back to keeping the Sabbath.   That is O.K...I feel sad but I know in the long they will be O.K. They are against war, corruption, don't steal, don't hate; against what destroys the earth. They will be O.K.   and they are happy . In all religions I have found  happy and un-happy people and children. Same  experience  just  different response and dealing with what they don't like. There is sadly always abuse, no excuse for it. Same with the Jewish parents and the synagogue, the Muslim children and the different Christian movement. Liberal churches, conservative ones. Some children are very happy others not and maybe never. Mom is still  in contact with X in X, she occasionally will go to WCG there. Bill Rabey is there minister. She liked the church better before all the changes. But her 3 boys,  X, X and X, all are married, there are  grand children. We don't know if they do all attend the WCG,  but she tells us how they are all  so good to her......Their wife's and all seem to be doing well.


      Jill:


      You can put sugar coating on everything that tastes bad, but in the end the coating is gone and the taste is still there. WCG was corrupt, and there is a very long list of all the corruption. That corruption took your money, your life, your private life, your business, your son, and a whole lot more. They enslaved you into a system that had expectations you could never reach. You have become captive to a Book that was written some 2 thousand years ago, and manipulated by people who know how to manipulate everything in the book. 


      Children don't have a choice as to where they will be born into. Sugar coating or not. I can't judge how other children feel and what parents say doesn't always mean they are telling the truth. Most of the parents, like you, try to avoid saying anything because most of them feel that maybe it wasn't as nice and as wonderful as they thought it would be. 


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      Jack:


      Personally, as we go back as you have asked us too, we would miss some of the trips we took .  Especially Jerusalem, and AC was connected with Hebrew University. We were taken by local Professors of Archeology to the sites they were working on and explained what they had found and were searching for. At the time the mayor or Jerusalem organized a show of Jewish and Arab children performing their cultural dances. Goal to show that they can enjoy each other. He had great hope fro the next generation!!??  Makes me sad. I could go on and on.


      To make things more complicated: "The believe that people know right from wrong at all time",  has also a flaw .  When wrong, it can have painful results. This western world is based on the teaching of "age of reasoning". Our Governments, Religions, Education System is based on it. Best argument wins, till the next one. Allen Grenspan believed, the established Financial institutions would know the difference and giving them maximum freedom and choice, would work great!!!!! How about holding the ones of this teaching accountable. How big is the damage. There is no new philosophy, they all existed 1000s. of years ago. Same for government, religion, lifestyle, Moral values  have a effect. WCG as all organizations and individual have  +/-


      Jill:


      Decency, good moral conduct, and what's wrong and right, are not all that hard to understand. I believe I got those from you without all the religion. You read to much stuff and can't make sense of it all because it doesn't make sense most of the time. Governments, religions, universities, business, etc... everybody is trying to manipulate you. Never said the others where better. Lies are lies, and when you see them for what they are you can avoid the traps.


      WCG had no plus minus sides. That church had only one purpose to suck your life and wallet dry. Why are you always trying to cover up all of this? Is it because you don't want to accept the truth of it all. That it was only lies, more lies, and more more lies. In the end you could have done without it and had just as good a life. I wonder would you ever admit to that?


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      Jack:


      The X speaking club wants me again to do the Christmas service. I told them, I gave up the papers. The secretary just smiled....."We are after your experience not a peace of paper. I am not against titles and papers, they can help but also cause much harm. Main message, I keep it to about 10 minutes. Mom leads all the singing.  We still don't get involved with the traditional part, but with the meaning of the day.

       

      A great opportunity to give hope in challenging time.


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      Jack:


      ==== I don't blame HWA: He always said: " Don't believe me, check it out". I chose to go to the WCG. reason:  They introduced me to many subject strange to me and I wanted to investigate.  Much of their teaching are respected by the main Christian body; to bad, where they were wrong, many members & families suffered the consequence. So did we specially. Yes, we did. But Mom and me count the benefits, visible and hidden. We would not want to give up our benefits, Scripture help us in business, teaching, marriage and much more.   I wish learning would be easier. So: if you say you were abused by the WCG.  You call me a child abuser since you never attended without me. I saw what they did to you and permitted it. same: You say     "I ruined your childhood." !!!!! If I would have said any thing similar to my Dad; end of our relationship. and I would  not  blame  him. During school vacation, I was sent to the farm to work.  We sent you to Europe 2x. would have sent you again but you were so angry at me for sending you. 

       

      Jill:


      HWA, was a great rhetoric, able to manipulate people into believing and doing things they would normal never do. And you know that. You swallowed everything they told you, and I don't remember you questioning anything.  I suppose if you still believe that Noah built an arch and the world was flooded, that the planet is only 6 or 7 thousand years old, (The great flood is just one of many stories that are just stories) and I could mention a whole lot more, then I guess we really do have a problem here. HWA lied, the bible is full of stories that you can use to manipulate people with. When will you wake up? What's left of a book, when all the stories turn out to be lies, used to manipulate people? The whole card house falls down.


      Abused. The mental abuse you subjected me to are real. You can say what you want, but they are real. 

      I can defend myself today, and that's the difference. 

      I don't have to agree with you, or put up with you when you are on one of your crusades. I could make a long list of things that WCG made you do, that effected your personality for the worse. And you still won't deal with those problems. Parents make mistakes, and when we grow older we talk about what happened. Why because we are both older, mature and can talk eye to eye, face to face, whatever.


      It's easy to pick on someone small, they can't defend themselves. 


      I couldn't talk to you, I still cannot talk to you.


      I guess it's just like it was with your father.


      WCG, took my life away from me through you! That you were manipulated into doing things that you might not have done otherwise. 

      THIS IS WHAT IT'S ABOUT.


      When and if ever you understand that, then you will also be able to say to yourself that maybe just maybe Jill might have something there that is right!


      I'M NOT HERE TO TELL YOU WHAT YOU BELIEVE IN, 


      ONLY THAT WHAT YOU'VE BEEN BELIEVING IN HASN'T GOT YOU ANYWHERE.


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      Jack:


      If you  say: I put God before you......yes!!  and I always will.  A ME, ME person will never be happy....I guess a ME, ME person wants his way to be god.

       

      Jill:


      If you put God first, and say that you are not a "me only person" because of it, then I would suggest you look at the results. 

      You have become a "me only person", knocking everything down for one purpose only, you and your beliefs.

      If that is not a me only person, then I think that maybe you should take a better look at how it's turned out.


      The balancing act when you go to extremes is impossible. You can never really make anyone happy, least of all yourself.

      I don't really think you care for me, because in the end, you've blinded yourself into believing a myth.


      I cannot fight your illusions, and I cannot fight what doesn't exist. And it is even more difficult to find common ground when there is so little common ground.


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      Jack:


      A great man is known by the character, ethics, values and care for others. And how he lives by them.   Not easy. Constantly challenged by abusers, selfish and power seeking, selfish people.


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      Jack:


      A great man is known by the character, ethics, values and care for others. And how he lives by them.   Not easy. Constantly challenged by I feel for your difficulties, this caused.  Some my fault, others your own making. Some people like to go to WCG and the world give the parent a limited responsibility and right to teach the children values besides giving them room and board. Jewish children, Diff. Christian ones, Islam.... ect .  Children in all groups have to go along. Some like it, some hate it, some simply make the best of it.

       

      Jill:


      The only difficulties that I had was with your Church and your Beliefs.


      You've just insulted me again saying that my difficulties where of my own making. I didn't ask to be part of your religious believes. I was forced brutally to accept them. Pressed into a world that you choose for me. Hey I was a kid, get that through your head.


      Just because other religious do it, doesn't make it right. That is no justification.


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      Jack:


      I don't like the god of this world; he has caused this world, me, my family much harm;  HE would have liked to cause much more,but has only limited power.    He can try to deceive, influence, make promises , bribes, mix true's with lies.  Who can withstand him? Yet we have freedom; if we say no, he cannot force us. But how do I know that he does not already have me......" Test the spirit" it written.....One would  think priest's, ministers or all church members would like it, if one would have this ability and gift. Very few do. World Religions is his most powerful tool and world Philosophy. Most have part right and then add their own twist.  And bingo, you can start a new movement or church. I guess, this will not cover all questions.


      [Editor: Sounds like a WCG old time hardliner]

      Jill:


      I guess your fantasy "God" is the better solution. The only person that is being deceived is you, by you. So instead of HWA you can now start your own PI Church. I'm not going to fall for that "Test the spirt" stuff, or do really think I will fall for that? Considering that you just punched so many holes into your own theories and beliefs, I would think that you would no longer believe what you have just written about about being tested. 


      If you can't explain why we exist, then making up a story to explain why we exist is not an explanation, it's a fantasy.

      What you can't explain doesn't mean you can simply make up an explanation.


      That kind of thinking gets you nowhere, or is it easier to explain then saying, "I don't know"


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      Jack:


      We are all free,  to let it destroy us  or  learn and  be able to understand others with the same problem. The other day I saw a TV program on  Child abuse. The father is now in jail, but I mean child abuse.... Child abuse .....is  terrible.    But so is  parent abuse.


      Jill:


      The only thing that is being destroyed is our friendship and that obviously doesn't bother you. 


      What parent abuse. I have never said anything in all these years. I never could. So if your saying I abused you, and that I am again at fault for what went on all those years ago, then I think you had better get your thinking straight.


      You where abused by WCG, HWA, and his henchmen. But telling me I am to blame for what you and your so called church of god did to me, is an insult.


      WCG was very good at making people fell guilty for everything. Your whole life was one big sin. You could never live up to their expectations, they where impossible, and what they expected their members to do with their children is not something I would recommend anyone to do.


      You kept telling me all the time I had to prove you wrong. Your believes, and everything that went with it.


      It's not my job to prove you wrong. It's your life, do with it what you want. 


      But if you wonder why it's not going the way you would like, then everything above is maybe a reason why.


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      Jack:


      Many that I know, who have left the WCG, continue their Christian live outside a organized church.

      Facing reality has never been for the week or faint.


      Jill:


      Facing reality? What reality? Hey I've been facing reality all my life.

      Grow up man, face the real facts, that there is more to life then just believing some stories that will make you feel better.

      I don't have answer to life's questions, nobody does, and I don't even want to come up with a fantasy to explain it.


      The week and faint need fantasies to help them face the realities of life.


      The strong face reality without the trappings of fantasies and illusions.


      This discussion is so eh...

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      Jack:


      Blaming, criticizing does not help  but  can  add to the problem.

      If I want respect, I should also give respect.

      To ask for a explanation is one thing, to demand on may be other one.

      I love you,  we love you,     but your  future  is not in our but  your hand.


      Jill:


      To let WCG, HWA, and his henchmen off the hook is to easy. 

      And after all the criticizing that you've done over the past 30 years I would think that you could do 

      with a little more critical thinking these days.


      You had your fun till now, I've decided to tell you what I think, after all you were very sure about what you think.

      If you can't take the heat, then don't get into the fire.


      You spent hours trying to debate with me about your "God" I think I was 14 or 15. Wow, what chance did I have there. I mean I could have told you that evolution is not just some fantasy, that the planet is a couple of billion years old, that humans have come genes with other species, and that all this is based on fact and not fiction. Or do you believe the world is flat. Every time hard facts come along, creationist have new excuses to explain away the facts.

      There was and is no way I can argue with that kind of thinking.


      Talk about being blind? One of your members once told me I would come running back to the true "God" and I thought to myself "your such an ignorant person". WCG really could screw things up in peoples heads.


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      Jack:


      remember seeing red, when I studied the R.Cath. Church, inquisition ect. Discovered some of the false teachings; maybe even blamed them for switching what seemed better.


      Jill:


      False teaching? Religion is not something that really interests me. The only reason I'm critical about it is that I don't like what it did to you, and how you went about with it. I see that same thing happening all around me, and I know for sure people are being used, manipulated and taken advantage of because they want to be good and nice and believe in something. Which tells me that most people are not bad and the they are victims of so called profits that know how to get their money. BECAUSE it comes down to getting your money. So much for false teaching you still talk the same, sound the same.... you haven't learned anything, because WCG was doing just that, false teaching. I guess you've been burned twice, but have you learned anything?


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      Jack:


      Since I have met many fine members within its community, we began to exchange our studies and experiences. Our comen denomination was scripture and God first, church after. They liked my studies, I enjoyed there's. Remember telling them not to switch to HWA. they were doing more good where they were and I felt we were doing ours where we were. Today I use all that experience when asked, many come to me; having questions about their Mainstreem church, and some with sons and daughters that go for " sect's."Mom could not get me into a R.Cath. Church for over 3o years. I was so turned off.


      Jill:


      Maybe you should find other roll models to look at. Or I should say stay away from this stuff, it's not good for you. For someone who tells others not to join you sure are strange. Man you are really strange. 


      THE FIRE ALARM BELLS SHOULD NOT ONLY BE RINGING, IT'S TOWERING INFERNO!


      WAKE UP YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE, AND YOUR FAMILY IS BURNING INSIDE.


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      Jack:


      It's hard to deal with,  but because my youth was not easy, copping with adult problems was easier.  Problems  are a normal matter in this life to me, I tried to prepare you for it. No parent is perfect and I am only interested in you getting the best in the year ahead of you. But blaming others makes us their slave.

       

      Jill:


      Kids can't cop with adult problems, their kids. And you were a kid. Thinking it was easier to cop with adult problems as a kid is an illusion.


      I couldn't cop with adult problems, otherwise I would not have let WCG do what it did with me, which was to take away all the fun in life.


      You can spend you life hiding, and maybe I am being hard on you. 


      Take your medicine, it will set you FREE


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      Jack:

       

      Yet, here I give a Non-denomination Christmas service.

                 

      Some day I may tell you about my youth and my experience. HWA seemed not so bad compared to what I went through and  because of it had no friends and no attachment to my place of birth.


      Jill:


      Never compare your experience to someone else's, that's very "me only". Your always looking at it from your perspective, but what about other side?


      Your a very strong person when it comes to your own pride. You plowed happily through it all over there... 


      I knew your father a little, and he was very proud of himself, he faced some hardships, but I think he won a lot of respect. I can't judge him, he was always direct. Most likely that made it hard for you, since I know he squared you a couple of times in the past. He also squared me when I got here, but that was ok, knew where he stood.


      Grandma told me about how your tried to convince them both that they had to change churches etc...


      Xxxxx also told her stories, I know they are true because I experienced it every day. 


      They never really understood what happened to you. They didn't have to since they have their own lives.


      Your father wasn't right all the time, and those methods are not the right methods to deal with family. You don't cut your children off because they don't do exactly what you want, or tell you what they think. That's not the best way to go about with family. Maybe they might be all you have left when everyone else leaves you out their.


      I put up with this religious nonsense for very long. I came home often in the past years, but somewhere it just becomes to much. You can only fill a cup so much then it runs over.


      If you think that I should have gone when I turned 18, I could have, my life would have gone on. I must have been hell for you since you had a sinner in your house everyday, that might have bought Playboy, and painted some christmas decorations. Peanuts, don't you think? Really, I will burn in hell....


      You where only a small part of the problem. You never really talked with me like I am telling you this now. We couldn't.

      You where a closed book, not to be opened. I don't even know if you will ever open yourself up. Why I don't know?


      Guess what, nobody will care in a 100 years from now about what, who, why we both were here. It can't be all that important since we're not all the important. 


      You set your priorities. God first!


      Ok, I guess that says it all. We will never really be that close.


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      Jack:

       

      Yet, we all react different to situation, I turned my back on what they did to me and enjoyed myself, if I had to do it on my own.  I refused to let anyone ruin my life, even as child.

                   

      No Man or Organization is going to ruin my life.


      Jill:


      But it has driven a wedge through our lives.


      That's it for now. I've given it lots of thought, I could have said, ok, let's just drop it. But you've been asking for it for a long time. You sat me down for hours preaching at me. I never said anything. Maybe it's time you listened a little too.


      I spent the last few weeks thinking about how to answer you. This is not really an answer, I don't have an answer to your "life" question. But if your life question gets in the way, then so be it.


      You've decide, I will respect that. But I don't want all to much contact with you anymore. I don't like that person, and his bad side.


      I cannot match the power of an illusion.


      You haven't changed, you haven't learned, and you haven't given me a single reason the go on with the effort.


      Sugar coating everything is just that sugar coating, and it's not a real relationship. 


      Jill



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