Comments on Ambassador Watch: Vision or Blind Man's Bluff?

I agree with Gavin on this one. Vision is the "ne...

2008-07-12T06:30:00.000+12:00

I agree with Gavin on this one. Vision is the "new" Plain Truth. The spirit of the original Plain Truth was as the parable of the sower suggests, scatter the seed and it will fall on various ground. Some will react to it, some will not, but the important thing was and remains that God determines which ground is fertile. In my oppinion, Vision is the only post WCG publication whose audience is not intended to be ex-WCG members. Likewise, it appears that the publication is not the vehicle for educating the church on doctrinal issues. Vision has also introduced something called foundations that serves as an educational tool for doctrine. These folks seem to be doing things much differently than the other post WCG groups. I like their stuff.

'...Wasn't the WCG belief supposed to be that this...

2008-06-29T06:00:00.000+12:00

'...Wasn't the WCG belief supposed to be that this isn't the only day of salvation? There was a pamphlet, called that, I'm pretty sure. If you believe that, why would you work so hard at converting people? The WCG didn't always operate from that belief, and a lot of the groups now sure don't--but it could be Vision really believes that...'

Read the efforts - often personally life-threatening - of the apostle Paul to 'persuade'

If you talk to Vision members very long (and I sti...

2008-06-28T04:56:00.000+12:00

If you talk to Vision members very long (and I still get together occasionally with ex-WCG friends of all persuasions, including Vision) they'll tell you the reason the magazine isn't aimed at a market that can be "converted" is because they actually aren't trying to round up members or convert anyone. They believe they're just supposed to let the world know there's hope for the future. So if that's true you'd just aim the magazine at the people who can pass ideas along that can help the world's quality of life, instead of aiming it at people who are likely to join the church.

A lot of the Vision articles talk about ways you can apply biblical principles in life and profit from it now--but I think the fact that they don't try to pull you into a church through the magazine is because they really believe what they say they believe about not trying to convert people.

Wasn't the WCG belief supposed to be that this isn't the only day of salvation? There was a pamphlet, called that, I'm pretty sure. If you believe that, why would you work so hard at converting people? The WCG didn't always operate from that belief, and a lot of the groups now sure don't--but it could be Vision really believes that.

"Yes, some lives were indeed ruined."I Survived Ar...

2008-06-28T03:47:00.000+12:00

"Yes, some lives were indeed ruined."

I Survived Armstrongism, anyone?

Tom Mahon said, "If you need to contact me, I am a...

2008-06-28T00:58:00.000+12:00

Tom Mahon said, "If you need to contact me, I am at Shiloh, you won't be surprised to learn?"

MY COMMENT - Thanks for the good laugh Tom. What? Me contact you? Why would I contact you? And how - by phone or e-mail? That's a riot!

Oh, yes! Of course self righteous Tom would be at Shiloh. Where else would you be?

Perhaps someone can take a mug shot of you at Shiloh, and you can post it on your website that no one ever visits or reads. Who knows? Perhaps your promised mug shot posted at your website will increase internet traffic to your website.

Richard

Richard said...>>Show us your mug shot. Let's see ...

2008-06-27T18:56:00.000+12:00

Richard said...

>>Show us your mug shot. Let's see your mop.<<

"Mug shot?" Isn't that term associated with criminals? You might be surprised to learn, that I have never been in trouble with the police; not even a ticket for speeding. So I won't have a "mug shot."

However, I did say I would post a photo of me. But I also said, that the timing is everything.

BTW, do you have anything to say about the magazine, Vision, that will help us to understand why other churches are growing and the COGs are in decline? Or do you think joining Douglas and shouting abuse is a constructive way of wasting your time?

If you need to contact me, I am at Shiloh, you won't be surprised to learn?

Maybe this magazine is actually trying to do what ...

2008-06-27T16:28:00.000+12:00

Maybe this magazine is actually trying to do what a mega-church in my city says in its mission statement: "Reach the unchurched."

Instead of trying to round up stray sheep from other COG's, or even mainline denominations, Vision's (uh) vision is to persuade people who simply sit at home on weekends and don't worship anywhere.

If you think about it, that's a more Christ-like approach.

Larry, We have our share of the brave and honest h...

2008-06-27T16:02:00.000+12:00

Larry,

We have our share of the brave and honest here, including Dennis Diehl.

As a former WCG cult minister, Dennis is willing to stand up and give his sincere unfiltered thoughts and opinions, and be as helpful as is humanly possible. This is in comparison to 99.99% of the Armstrongite ministry who disappeared after the changes rolled out, never to be seen or heard from again.

Dennis is refreshingly candid, so he isn't permitted by the WCG ministerial cowards at the Surprising God Blog to post his freely spoken opinions there. If they did allow for others in a moderated discussion, they might discover substituting in Karl Barth or Perichoresis for Harmstrong, doesn't glibly answer all of life's most persistent questions.

larry said... Richard, you make it sound like t...

2008-06-27T15:53:00.000+12:00

larry said...

Richard, you make it sound like the Church ruined your life. Get a grip.

Did it ever occur to you Larry that maybe, that's exactly what happened?

I don't know Richard.....but I do have a close friend who committed suicide because of the treatment he got from his pastor...

Yes, some lives were indeed ruined.

But you won't read about the casualties on the Suprising God Blog.

Most of us just carry on the best we can but we'll always carry the scars. Its when people tell us that what we experienced really wasn't that bad that we get truly annoyed. We lived through it.

Richard, you make it sound like the Church ruined ...

2008-06-27T15:37:00.000+12:00

Richard, you make it sound like the Church ruined your life. Get a grip.

larry said... Don't you think it is fascinating th...

2008-06-27T15:02:00.000+12:00

larry said...
Don't you think it is fascinating that there is so much passion here about the WCG?

I am amazed. I mean, really...., do you think there is this much passion in a bunch of ex-Methodists? Or ex-Episcopalians?

No, but the ex-members of the Jehovah's witnesses, Mormons and other cults far outnumber and outshine the few people who are on Amassador Watch in protestation of their past delusions.

The reason you don't see the same thing from ex-Methodists, Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians etc. is because they are real churches and not cults.

That is another sign of a cult, by the way, ex-members having their say on-line or in books accusing the cult of being a cult.

A previous poster said, "Well Tommy, this detracto...

2008-06-27T13:27:00.000+12:00

A previous poster said, "Well Tommy, this detractor is calling you out. You are a Liar! You have as yet to post your picture as you have stated you would. You have no credibility, not to mention your nonsensible ramblings. Your sir are a fraud in the same sence as Ronnie Weinland is a fraud. Only difference is you are a proven liar!"

MY COMMENT - I am reminded of story I heard Mr. Herbert W. Armstrong tell us about publishing his picture in the Plain Truth magazine. In the early years, Mr. Armstrong related that he was reluctant to publish his picture as according to him he did not want to be the focus. But according to Mr. Armstrong, readers of the Plain Truth and listeners of the World Tomorrow radio program kept writing into Headquarters wanting to see a picture of the man who spoke so boldly and with authority. So, reluctantly, according to Mr. Armstrong, he relented and allowed his picture to be published in the Plain Truth magazine.

Tom Mahon can learn from Mr. Armstrong's example. Notice Tom, that Mr. Armstrong did not promise his readers/listeners that he would publish his picture, and then not follow through on it. Tom, you criticized Dennis Diehl's "mop" several months ago, and then you promised to publish your picture...but you haven't yet. Tom, do the right thing and follow through your words with action. Follow Mr. Armstrong's example.

Show us your mug shot. Let's see your mop.

Richard

Doubting Larry wrote:"I am amazed. I mean, really....

2008-06-27T13:26:00.000+12:00

Doubting Larry wrote:

"I am amazed. I mean, really...., do you think there is this much passion in a bunch of ex-Methodists? Or ex-Episcopalians?"

"I doubt it."

I could introduce you to some ex-Episcopalians who would change your mind.

On second thought, maybe not. There's little hope for someone who thinks WCG was never a cult.

I've noticed that, like Tom, you selectively answer questions so it's unlikely you would admit it if you did meet ex-Episcopalians who have the same passion that is exhibited here (and I do know some).

Our dictionary reader was obviously hanging around...

2008-06-27T13:14:00.000+12:00

Our dictionary reader was obviously hanging around 80 South Crass during the '60s.

Seems our word choices for this ceremony were a bit more risque back then.... Como espirituel!

BB

There is an old adage, "Lie to me once, shame on y...

2008-06-27T13:12:00.000+12:00

There is an old adage, "Lie to me once, shame on you. Lie to me twice, shame on me".

Richard

No Richard, it's "'Fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again'
George W. Bush.

Of course, this was spoken by the same man who just recently explained as clearly as he could...

"I want to tell you how proud I am to be the President of a nation that -- in which there's a lot of Philippine-Americans. They love America and they love their heritage. And I reminded the President that I am reminded of the great talent of the -- of our Philippine-Americans when I eat dinner at the White House." --

George W. Bush, referring to White House chef Cristeta Comerford while meeting with Filipino President Gloria Macapagal Arroyo, Washington, D.C., June 24, 2008

Hey! This guy can give sermons for WCG and comment on the Surprising Blog God if he is this good at explaining things!

I am a poor white pastor general from an impoveris...

2008-06-27T12:46:00.000+12:00

I am a poor white pastor general from an impoverished state in america. This blog address was given to me by a friend and told me that the people here were trustworthy. I beg for your opinion.

I recently received a letter by an associate member of the church of God. I wonder if my answer was too harsh. I plead for you to reply. In Gods name I pray....

From the desk of
"Church of God Industries"

Greeting's Associate,
As a member of Church Of God Industries I have looked at the records and see that you have not applied for a singles dance and date membership here at the church. Going to the outside world to meet men may lead you into a sinful relationship that will lead you away from the true groom, Jesus Christ! Seeing how you are neglecting your salvation, I wonder if you still have it in mind to fill out an application for a mate/spouse
(Form 502B) in order for a complete audit of this persons finances. If approved by the church, you will then have to fill out Form 532A to get the stamp of approval. With this approval comes many benefits.
If you are married after the required two years then you MAY fill out Form 777 and apply for a church marriage license. With this in mind you can will be apply for a home here on our beautiful church campus. Your future spouse and yourself will have to fill out Form 666F to apply. Your very own church home here at God's campus will come with the mandatory kitchen sink "Holy Water Filter."
More on this amazing product can be found here.(The rest of the church associates, have your credit cards ready. Limited time offer.) THE OFFER.

In Jesus name,
Rev. KScribe
Pastor General of...
Church of God Industries
COG.IND. God's home, when away from home!

Tonny the liar........... said... Tom Mahon said.....

2008-06-27T12:33:00.000+12:00

Tonny the liar........... said...
Tom Mahon said..

"Nothing you say is going....."

wasn't this from the last post? why the crap guys? really?

Larry said, "Why do you think that is? What is it ...

2008-06-27T12:32:00.000+12:00

Larry said, "Why do you think that is? What is it about the Worldwide Church of God and subsequent splinter groups that could stir the hearts and minds of people after so many years?

I'll bet that some of you would say...blatant hypocrisy. But you would be wrong. That's not it."

MY COMMENT - Larry, its probably because most of us were young, dumb, stupid, gullible and impressionable when we attended the WCG. We grew-up believing HWA was God's Apostle; believing that there is this wonderful world tomorrow coming right around the corner in 1975 as HWA told us; and believing there is a place of safety from the world's tribulation in Petra.

There is also the social aspect that we were all in this WCG cult that did not associate much with the outside world. People gave their all for "God's work" - their time, money resources and lives.

But, it all turned out to be a giant con job. We all lost our innocence with the WCG - it was all a huge lie. There is no wonderful world tomorrow, and there is no place of safety.

I really don't believe anything that comes from the WCG or its splinters and religion in general. The God of HWA and the WCG was a very cruel God.

Armstrongite ministers have cried wolf so often, that its now entertainment for me. I can't take them seriously anymore.

There is an old adage, "Lie to me once, shame on you. Lie to me twice, shame on me".

Richard

"And now, a reading from the dictionary..." (brin...

2008-06-27T12:13:00.000+12:00

"And now, a reading from the dictionary..." (bring back any memories, Byker Bob?

"Drivel" - Definition drivel (driv′əl)

intransitive verb -·eled or -·elled, -·el·ing or -·el·ling

to let saliva flow from one's mouth; drool; slobber
to speak in a silly or stupid manner

Etymology: ME drivelen < OE dreflian, to slobber, prob. akin to draff
transitive verb

to say in a silly or stupid manner

noun

Now Rare saliva running from the mouth
silly, stupid talk; childish nonsense; twaddle

The word is "drivel", not "drible" or "dribble."

Sorry - I'm about to crack.

Tom Mahon said.."Nothing you say is going to stop ...

2008-06-27T12:06:00.000+12:00

Tom Mahon said..

"Nothing you say is going to stop me from glorying in being reviled."

"When all my detractors can do is resort to abuse, then it is evident they have lost the argument. Or what is more likely, they are incapable of marshaling an argument in defence of their ill conceived opinions.

Shouting abuse might impress your fan club, but it can have no impact on those who are secure in knowledge of truth, and are above the approbations of the practice of vulgar."

Well Tommy, this detractor is calling you out. You are a Liar! You have as yet to post your picture as you have stated you would. You have no credibility, not to mention your nonsensible ramblings. Your sir are a fraud in the same sence as Ronnie Weinland is a fraud. Only diffrence is you are a proven liar!

Why do you think that is? What is it about the Wor...

2008-06-27T11:02:00.000+12:00

Why do you think that is? What is it about the Worldwide Church of God and subsequent splinter groups that could stir the hearts and minds of people after so many years?

I'll bet that some of you would say...blatant hypocrisy. But you would be wrong. That's not it.

My comment: For the same reason that abused children seek out forums to interact with others that were abused. Or someone with an illness seeks out others who might have the same illness. It's as simple as that.

Don't play psychologist and make more of it than it is.

Don't you think it is fascinating that there is so...

2008-06-27T10:38:00.000+12:00

Don't you think it is fascinating that there is so much passion here about the WCG?

I am amazed. I mean, really...., do you think there is this much passion in a bunch of ex-Methodists? Or ex-Episcopalians?

I doubt it.

Why do you think that is? What is it about the Worldwide Church of God and subsequent splinter groups that could stir the hearts and minds of people after so many years?

I'll bet that some of you would say...blatant hypocrisy. But you would be wrong. That's not it.

Visions is Davids ego. Nothing more.

2008-06-27T10:37:00.000+12:00

Visions is Davids ego. Nothing more.

That's an anglo iris btw.

2008-06-27T09:58:00.000+12:00

That's an anglo iris btw.

I guess those weak negative comments are published...

2008-06-27T08:23:00.000+12:00

I guess those weak negative comments are published so that LCG can say they print what readers have to say whether good or bad.

What do you say about that bob thiel?

Eddby