Comments on Ambassador Watch: They're gone - but what does it mean?

Thanks, Tue Aug 11, 01:06:00 AM NZST Not knowing ...

2009-08-11T17:21:33.340+12:00

Thanks, Tue Aug 11, 01:06:00 AM NZST

Not knowing the order of the events and the actual meeting schedule a picky point remains. If the reporter was reporting on the previous weeks meeting and not meetings of the week of 27, July there was no error. they were CoE members prior to their resignation dates. To use a Gavinism, I am not the "sharpest knife in the drawer" and could be missing an obvious detail.
Wess

Wess wrote: ""Why would the "repo...

2009-08-11T01:06:17.438+12:00

Wess wrote:

""Why would the "reporter" of COE meetings be kept out of the loop on this?

It makes me wonder if the COE members in attendance even knew what was happening"

Richard asked a perceptive question. I don't believe I have seen the answer, could be no one knows or is not willing to post.

Wess"

From the dates of the resignations this seems quite simple to me...the COE reporter reports on official COE meetings (like the ones that started yesterday)... these resignations took place when there were no meetings going on, didn't they? So it would be make perfect sense for the Chairman (Roy Holladay) to report on this. It would not be the duty of the COE reporter to report on things outside of COE meetings, as he is not on the COE. Not sure what is meant that some of the COE members in attendance didn't even know what was happening...was this referring to something else???

"Why would the "reporter" of COE me...

2009-08-10T12:49:58.517+12:00

"Why would the "reporter" of COE meetings be kept out of the loop on this?

It makes me wonder if the COE members in attendance even knew what was happening"

Richard asked a perceptive question. I don't believe I have seen the answer, could be no one knows or is not willing to post.

Wess

Based on the comments I've read here, this sit...

2009-08-09T11:04:02.591+12:00

Based on the comments I've read here, this situation looks very familiar.

Yes -- I saw it on the old TV series Get Smart.

It's CONTROL vs. KAOS. Now all we need is for someone to develop a good acronym for the KAOS side.

"My personal opinion is that the COE should b...

2009-08-09T08:27:04.808+12:00

"My personal opinion is that the COE should be MUCH MORE DIVERSE than it is...it shouldn't even be a council of ELDERS, it should have lay members, women, etc."

Then it wouldn't be a Church of God. So what's the point?

"PLEASE - tell me who is lying" PLEASE ...

2009-08-07T08:14:04.233+12:00

"PLEASE - tell me who is lying"

PLEASE - tell me who is spinning what / who is misleading

PLEASE TELL ME WHO IS LYING?????

They all are Anon 11:10. I wouldn't trust a single one of them as far as I could throw them.

Anonymous UCG member, It merely comes down to thi...

2009-08-07T01:12:52.829+12:00

Anonymous UCG member,

It merely comes down to this: There has ALWAYS been 2 camps in United...that is why it is impossible for them to be UNITED.
That is why many, many of us, inclusing many, many elders are no longer part og UCG.

The one camp...the old guard is all about control. They are elitist and look on members as below them in church life. The old guard COE liked to do things in executive session...so the brethren would never find out of their horrible tactics. Now I know for some issues with privacy issues involved, occasional executive sessions are necessary. They are the ones who absolutely DID NOT agree with the way things were set up in Indy. And immediately went about changing how things were discussed in Indy. No more local boards, no more collecting tithes locally, etc, etc. I know for a fact that they have systematically gotten rid of local boards, tho they haven't been successful YET in a few local areas...where the pastor is a hold out. They also ruled the Elder's forum, squelching any kind of meaningful discussion. This is just a brief discription of this camp.

The second camp is a more open one. They believe in free exchange of ideas/communication. However, their background holds them back from being able to do this entirely successfully. They do believe in the transparency talked about in Indy. Some of the do have a tendency to retreat to old methods at times however. But at least they are TRYING to have UCG be more transparent and open and honest...having the brethren know more about what is going on.

UCG will forever have these conflicts due to these 2 camps. My suggestion to you is to find an independent congregation where such turmoil doesn't exist.

I will not reveal who was on the alternate forum because it was a private forum. I know that is tough for those not on it...they are just dying to know what was discussed aren't they??? But then again the Elder's forum was a private forum too...Elder's also agreed not to divulge what was discussed on the Elder's forum, unless someone (such as Joel) said a post COULD be shared.

SSSOOO...if you ask me to divulge what was discussed on and who was part of the alternate forum, shouldn't you also ask the same of the UCG Elder's forum? The rules were basically the same for both forums. Except the alternate forum, as you say was by invitation only. IT IS A FREE COUNTRY YOU KNOW!?!?!

The COE is also free to appoint its reporter...John Foster wasn't the first and Gerald Seelig won't be the last. Knowing both as I do, GS will be willing to report ALL that goes on, not just the pleasant things. JF is one with the mindset that the elders are above the brethren....not a servant of the brethren, so therefore would not be prone to report certain things, IMHO.

You are free to disagree with me, but you better be careful which side you are choosing. I do not see Christ being very controlling over his apostles in the NT, nor over all of us as His body.

My personal opinion is that the COE should be MUCH MORE DIVERSE than it is...it shouldn't even be a council of ELDERS, it should have lay members, women, etc.

So, don't ask me to divulge information that I agreed not to divulge...I am on other non-church forums where the same is required. I try to honor that. If that bugs you then that tells something about YOU!!

It is a MESS... I will agree with you there...that is why I am no longer a part of it because it is a three ring circus which never stops!!

As a previous poster wrote, there are some serious...

2009-08-06T17:18:00.809+12:00

As a previous poster wrote, there are some serious questions that the so-called new progressive Council members need to answer.

Many UCG members are looking at this Council and seeing that this makeup of men is a failure. They came in with talk of "doing things differently" "radically increasing funds to preach the gospel" "increasing relationships with other Churches of God's"...etc.

But what have they accomplished?

They have basically come in, bullied the administration, covered themselves, have now started removing people they don't like, and filibustered the administrations proposals.

They need to answer...
1. Why the same men who constantly talk about "conflicts of interest" (referring to operation managers serving on the Council) have no problems with more flagrant conflicts of interest. Why is it not a conflict of interest that the editor of World News and Prophecy and an anchor on the TV program is now the chairman of the Media Committee. Is this not a blatant conflict of interest? Is it not a conflict of interest that those who participated in the "Alternate Forum" are now trying to use their authority on the Council to squelch discussion of it?

2. These men need to answer why they removed the previous Council Reporter. They never made an announcement, but slyly reported it only by using spin while announcing the new reporter. Did they give any legitimate reason for dismissing the former reporter? Why could he not be included in whatever the "new strategy" for communication being devised by the increasingly powerful Media Committee? How is Gerald Seelig more qualified than John Foster? This needs to be answered? In the spirit of "freedom of speech" that the chair of the media committee likes to talk about, why does he and his friends not answer these questions?

3. How is it healthy for a board of directors to be run by a group of longtime friends? Darris McNeely, Robin Webber, and Paul Kieffer. These three men are nearly inseperable. They think alike and vote alike. Throw in Melvin Rhoades, who joins the three men in writing for World News and Prophecy. Throw in Victor Kubik, who lives in Indianapolis (close to Darris McNeely) and the realtionship of Mr. Kubik and Mr. Rhoades due to marriage.

There are many other questions that well meaning UCG members have about this Council. Sadly, it should have been the other ten that resigned last week and not the two fine men who did. It is hard telling if there is a man more respected in the Church of God than Richard Thompson.

That long winded message just posted was meant to ...

2009-08-06T11:13:44.743+12:00

That long winded message just posted was meant to be answered by

Anonymous Thu Aug 06, 02:37:00 AM NZST

Any by the way not all the COE men took part in the alternate forum, I do take them at their word.

Anonymous 3:12, Regarding the alternate forum, I ...

2009-08-06T11:10:54.284+12:00

Anonymous 3:12,

Regarding the alternate forum, I am glad that it was cordial and should be when it is limited to invitation only.

Will you provide the list off names that were part of LIFE or how individuals were selected to participate.

IF life mission as stated "The Leadership Information For Elders (LIFE) Forum is a “principle centered forum,” a tool for elders interested in communicating on issues related to our Church slogan, “Preaching the Gospel,
Preparing a People.”"

why then establish an alternate forum, instead of using the elders forum.

Will you state that it never was discussed what ministers / elders would be most amenable to helping preach the Gospel / prepare a people according to those invited to LIFE?

Simple questions - no one willing to answer.

By the way, I am 3rd generation, considered young by COG standards and didn't agree with the move to TX. Although when UCG moved from CA it should have moved to TX at that time.

However, the fact is when the alternate forum was fist discussed by the COE, one COE member sat in silence and didn't even hint that he knew what was being discussed.

PLEASE - tell me who is lying

Stating Mr. Thompson and Mr. Kilough dropped of the COE because of personal issues - demands of the COE

PLEASE - tell me who is spinning what / who is misleading

The reason the move was voted on again was because the supposed COE who supported the move (Mr. Kubic, Mr. Dean, etc)somehow changed their minds, when a couple more "like minded" members got on the COE.

Instead of stepping down for "personal reasons" - they somehow changed their minds although they were supportive the first time. PLEASE TELL ME WHO IS LYING?????

As one post stated, politics is ugly and both sides have their hands dirty.

I am a member of UCG, didn't support the move and don't support the lack of transparency of the current leading members of COE.

Talking about controlling, why did the COE reporter get removed - yes removed - was it that the current majority of COE members didn't like him reporting what actually took place in COE meetings - Once again WHO IS CONTROLLING -

Please lets get it all out in the open - you know who paticipated - you know who was discussed - WHO IS CONTROLLING and NOT transparent????????

You are correct I was not invited to LIFE ( not sure how that selection process worked) or part of the EF - thankfully to both

How to resolve - How to resolve

What is amazing in the COE reports is the lack of God, Christ, reconciliation, humility, repentance and use of scripture.

The posting of Joel Meeker's EF rant looks prophetic to me.

And what is censor - can anyone find the word censor in the scripture. When an elder goes directly against the administration, what should be done scripturally?

But censor - that is the problem with UCG and as a member, they need to start addressing issues and holding to scripture for guidance - NOT LEGAL COUNCIl! Sounds like Obama, sounds like satan leading not GOD.

This mess is putrid.

Anonymous 3:12 on August 6 - looking forward to your next post -please answer the questions

In Joel's lovely EF post...he talks about the ...

2009-08-06T03:12:06.876+12:00

In Joel's lovely EF post...he talks about the move to TX and how those who were for the move behaved with such decorum. It is now a KNOWN FACT...that the reason a second vote was called for was because these wonderful men who were so cool and collected and had such decorum...had not revealed ALL the facts about the move. And the internet rumors and lies that Clyde wrote about the first property UCG wanted to buy...turned out not to be rumors and lies, but FACTS about the nearby chemical plant and the toxins it had been fined for releasing into the environment. After Clyde wrote that these were lies and rumors...the little blurb that appeared in the United News said they were not buying that property due to "environmental concerns". So who was lying? and then the same guys turned around and didn't give all the facts about the second property.

So that made a second vote necessary. And of course the whistle blowers are made to look like they don't behave with decorum, but like they are whiners and trouble makers!!

What Joel is saying, is that if these guys would just keep their mouth shut none of this would have happened...and no one would have known that they voted without full disclosure.

Think about it...if a wife who is abused by her husband would just keep quiet....there wouldn't be any problem. RIGHT??? The husband would certainly feel this way, but what about the wife and everyone else who has some REAL morality!!
They would all want the truth. But Joel and others in control don't see it that way.

PART 2 We have just crossed a moral line. I don&#...

2009-08-06T02:54:05.569+12:00

PART 2

We have just crossed a moral line. I don't believe we can ever go back to the ethics and principle-driven values we at least tried to have before. Populist politics have taken over – just like in the world; we have espoused a post-modern, emotion-driven worldview. A majority of our balloting elders have shown they will not support the consensus of the GCE if they don't feel like it. They have shown that they will listen to mud-slinging and vituperation and even lies, mixed with generous helpings of fawning and flattery and they will willingly cooperate.

They have shown that they don't care about rules or codes if they don't feel like it, even if we've all previously agreed to abide by them. They have besmirched our ministerial code of ethics by reelecting a defiant, self-willed man to the Council.

Either that or they were just duped. And that would scarcely bode any better for the future of this association.

I believe this is the beginning of the end for the United Church of God as we have known it. The fissures caused by the moral earthquake we all just felt will no doubt be papered over for a while and we will be assured that all is well in the best of worlds. Great trees don't fall in an instant, but the cracking sound is getting louder. Some of you have sown the wind; you will in time reap the whirlwind. God is not mocked. In the meanwhile, may God have mercy on His people; they deserve better.

The Lord gave and the Lord hath taken away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

From: Joel Meeker

To: [UCG Elders Forum]

Sent: Thu, 22 May 2008 6:25 am

Subject: EF: Post may be shared

Joel Meeker Milford OH

My post of this morning may be shared in accordance with our EF rules.

PART 1 Here you go...one of the many rants of Joel...

2009-08-06T02:53:45.664+12:00

PART 1
Here you go...one of the many rants of Joel Meeker on the HIGHLY CONTROLLED AN REGULATED Elder's Forum...this was apparently considered to be an acceptable post, but if you want to discuss doctrine or candidates or issues in a respectful way, forget it!!

From: Joel Meeker

To: [UCG Elders Forum]

Sent: Thu, 22 May 2008 5:27 am

Subject: EF: Requiem for truth and honor

Joel Meeker, Milford OH

There have been times in the history of the United Church of God when I've been very proud of this association. There have been times when we've come through trials or temptations with our heads high, and our GCE or COE or particular leaders have performed with distinction.

But now we've disgraced ourselves as a body and I for one am ashamed to be part of this General Conference of Elders.

Last year we prayed and fasted and voted on relocation and it was finally approved by 7 votes. This year we were assured that revisiting the decision would bring unity and closure and everyone would be "brought on board." We fasted and prayed and the relocation was canceled by 10 votes. So far I haven't heard anyone who was so morally indignant last year, complain about this obvious lack of consensus; that this decision was made by such a slender margin. But that wouldn't be due to a double standard, or situation ethics....

This year 9 fewer men voted against the move, 34 fewer men voted to support the relocation. So 43 men, nearly 10% of our GCE, were discouraged enough or disgusted enough or far enough along in the process of disengaging from the GCE that they didn't vote this year when they had last year. Thank you for the new unity, and for getting everyone on board. Or is that silence you hear the sound of some more saints having been worn out?

What does this prove: that 10 is more than 7 so God has finally spoken? Does God work through misinformation, innuendo, and railing accusations against the brothers we have chosen for our administration? Does He accomplish His will through furtive slanderous internet forums and personal attacks? I guess we're supposed to believe so. Thus far those who were in favor of the relocation have generally behaved with decorum and respect, so I expect this issue will remain a dead letter now for some time. Some elders do have a sense of propriety and shame. Would that it had been so with those who worked so hard, with so much misleading misinformation to defeat it. Yes, I'm ashamed to be part of an association that supposedly repudiates factions - where a faction can behave with such cunning ruthlessness and contempt for the truth, and still win its own will.

The most telling blow and the most shameful to us, however, is that an elder who blatantly defied the lawful decision of our president – made in the best interest of the Church, a man who according to the Council showed no repentance or remorse and stated plainly he might do the same thing again any time he chose, who thereby soiled all respect for our rules, our policies, our leaders and anyone who doesn't agree with his own personal view of "God's will," a man who was censured by our COE – an unprecedented act of sanction and disgrace – for his actions and his attitude; that man we have blithely reelected to serve on our Council of Elders.

Shame on him. But even more than that, shame on us.

I suppose we get the leaders we deserve. We shall drink deeply of that cup.

Anonymous asked: "Has any one every received ...

2009-08-06T02:47:54.397+12:00

Anonymous asked:
"Has any one every received a letter from their boss they thought could be threatening. "

I am not sure WHY you asked this question...do you think it would be normal to answer yes to this question?

I for one have NEVER received anything that resembled a threatening letter from any boss. NOR has any boss that I have ever had tried to CONTROL what private forums I take part in, or anything that I discuss about anything with anyone.

Why does UCG administration think they need to do that? We all need to be SELF controlled. Not controlled by someone in administration...that is NOT their job. Hey, they can start up their own alternate forum if they want. And they can be as controlling as they want over it...oh, I forgot, they have that forum already...it is the UCG Elder's forum....

Anonymous said.... "If there is nothing to hi...

2009-08-06T02:37:32.888+12:00

Anonymous said....
"If there is nothing to hide from the alternate forum, why then was there denial of this forum, hesitation to admit to the forum and not will not share if they discussed who should be voted to the COE."

I know for a fact that this forum was formed because the UCG elder's forum is so restrictive, you really can't discuss much on there...how do I know?...in the past I was part of BOTH of them.

I think such things as candidates for the COE ....SHOULD be discussed!! The alternate Elder's forum is all about unrestricted communication among elders who felt such discussion should be allowed.

Do you mean to tell me that elders should somehow not be allowed to be a part of whatever forums they want to be a part of? Who should control what forums they can and cannot be a part of? Church Administration???

You see, you miss the big picture by what you posted here...it is an issue of CONTROL...some want to control what others think, discuss, and communicate. The old guard who believe THEY should be the ones to CONTROL everyone else is the REAL problem.

Some of the newer COE members are not as CONTROLLING as the old guard, and some of them are even participants in the alternate forum, because they too like to be able to freely discuss issues and not be censored.

The alternate forum, I found, was much more friendly, respectful and not so much rancor on it. Just as a for instance I will mention Joel Meeker's numerous rants on Elder's forum...in particular the one which made its way to this site, about Aaron Dean...remember that one? I NEVER saw anything like that on the alternate forum...where a so called elder ripped apart another fellow elder.

And yet, Joel's posts were allowed on the Elder's forum, but more moderate posts which disagreed with Joel or others of the old guard were not posted. So you see...the Elder's forum was regulated as to which posts could go up and which could not and they had to be in agreement with a certain old guard, CONTROLLING mind set!!

Since obviously, you were never a part of the alternate forum,(and I suspect not part of the elder's forum either) you will just have to take my word for it.

I would say that the alternate forum participants are more SELF controlled...as compared to the old guard who have very little SELF control, but feel they have a right and responsibility to CONTROL every one else.

So, YOU are the one who doesn't get it. The old guard needs to stop trying to CONTROL everyone and everything that happens in UCG and elsewhere.

Yes, it will be interesting to see what happens next week.

"BTW, is that sermon online?" Nope, hav...

2009-08-05T21:20:51.591+12:00

"BTW, is that sermon online?"

Nope, haven't seen the Christmas Eve sermon posted (yet), altho apparently ESN either has a copy, or knows someone with a cassette copy (not VHS).

In the meantime though, there is this video, from 1986. A far cry from where he ended up (and dragged the church with him), some years later.

I've never been able to stomach getting past the first ten minutes, but maybe someone with a stronger constitution can make it through, and highlight the hypocrisy.

-PH

Politics is a dirty game even in the churches of G...

2009-08-05T19:26:17.843+12:00

Politics is a dirty game even in the churches of God.
The double talk never changes.

Anonymous Aug 5, 4:40 stated " Apparently som...

2009-08-05T16:52:18.543+12:00

Anonymous Aug 5, 4:40 stated " Apparently some in UCG (probably in the ministry) have gotten what were deemed intimidating to almost threatening letters from some in Administration."

Someone please determine what threatening letters are from the administration. Is it the letter to an elder who was told to stop sending out communication to other elders telling them if you believe like us to vote for this individuals?

Has any one every received a letter from their boss they thought could be threatening.

The issue is the alternate forum that some ministers / elders open to discuss matters outside of the elder forum in private and restricted and allegedly discussed who should be voted onto the council.

When this is discussed in the COE meetings the ministry involve in the alternate forum do not recuse themselves from the discussion, but are the ones answering the questions that have been sent in by elders and members who are concern. And then these same men throw out the statement intimidating letters from the administration instead of addressing the questions rightfully. It is kept it in open session to limit the discussion of names.

Get the facts - there is one primary issue and it is not to or not to move to Texas or anywhere else. It is not limited executive sessions, but was there an effort to get certain individuals on the COE

If there is nothing to hide from the alternate forum, why then was there denial of this forum, hesitation to admit to the forum and not will not share if they discussed who should be voted to the COE.

Start focusing on that and ask all those involved to come forward and share the discussion threads, emails etc.

As for next week - get ready when as I think you have it wrong on what is to be presented.

After Skeptic mentioned, "Tkach's 'ev...

2009-08-05T14:26:56.875+12:00

After Skeptic mentioned, "Tkach's 'everything is optional' sermon in early 1995", it got me to wondering if that pivotal message caused lots of disagreements and alternative ideas that were once kept at bay and hidden, to rise up.
(And, that the more ego-driven felt more free to proclaim that THEY had the real truth which people needed.)

It might help explain the proliferation of splinter groups.

BTW, is that sermon online?

And, also, because it's hard to admit that one has swallowed a load of garbage, so many have made small adjustments to what they swallowed as "THE TRUTH" and now declare their slightly augmented understanding as being golden.
(And this relates to the fact that it's an alluring thing to see one's self as a big fish in the pond(even though, and because, the ponds are now quite small.)

To those who say, "You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater!", I'll say that the horrible "baby" is like the hideous Chucky doll, and should be disposed of thoroughly, lest there be more awful "Chucky" movies.

Questeruk said... Corky said... “It refers to the ...

2009-08-05T06:44:11.600+12:00

Questeruk said...
Corky said... “It refers to the morning star (Venus) which rises before the sun comes up but appears to fall back to earth. It is because of it being an inner planet (between the earth and the sun) that it does not traverse the sky.”
-----------------------------
Yeah, I left off a word, it does not "visibly" traverse the sky is what I meant to say.

If I remember correctly, it was Pythagorus in the 6th century BC who figured out that the morning star (Venus) and the evening star were both the same star.

Before the sun reaches its zenith the planet becomes invisible to the naked eye - thus it has fallen from the sky back to earth.

Oh well, I probably still don't have that just right.

Anyway, even though there is a Satan in the minds of the Christians, Satan is not mentioned in that passage.

Satan doesn't appear anywhere in the OT except in Job and Job is not a literal story but is a long parable about Israel and its adversary and 3 allies.

Too long to explain ...

Finally hearing some things of substance, but have...

2009-08-05T04:44:04.333+12:00

Finally hearing some things of substance, but have not been able to yet confirm all of it. Apparently some in UCG (probably in the ministry) have gotten what were deemed intimadating to almost threatening letters from some in Administration. they received these messages because they disagreed with the administration on some points. Apparently, the COE is coming to town this next week and were going to deal with this in some manner.

Also, apparently an issue is that the TX move was reversed. This is sticking in some folks craw!! Some of them WANT TO BE IN TEXAS and that is that!!

The reduction in number of executive sessions is also making some none too happy!!

Will keep watching, listening!!

Bob said "For years, there was apparent unity...

2009-08-05T01:09:58.177+12:00

Bob said "For years, there was apparent unity in WCG, but that was an illusion."

How true, Bob. I was utterly shocked, after the Tkach "everything is optional" sermon in early 1995, at how DIFFERENT all of our beliefs really were. My discussions with other church members literally shook my foundations.

Before that, I had thought we "all spoke the same thing", with just minor differences. I did my best for years to obey everything the church taught. I thought everybody else did, too. It turned out that was not the case.

After the Tkach sermon, I heard every variety of opinion possible, from "nothing has changed - everything is still the same" to "what right do I have to have an opinion - that's up to God's leadership" to "I never believed (insert doctrine) anyway, I always knew that wasn't true and I didn't practice it". I heard that last one a LOT, with regard to tithing, smoking, makup, pork, you name it.

Bob is 100% right, the apparent unity we had under HWA was just an illusion, enforced by fear and intimidation.

The Skeptic

I rarely agree with Corky, and am not sure I do th...

2009-08-04T21:23:27.058+12:00

I rarely agree with Corky, and am not sure I do this time, but this matter of "Lucifer" might give anyone pause.

In Latin Lucifer is used for "morning star" or "day star." Isaiah 14 says, in a taunt against the king of Babylon, "How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star (Lucifer in Latin), son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!"

In the NT Peter looks forward to the time when the morning star (Lucifer, in Latin), rises in our hearts (1:19). And in Revelation, Jesus says he is the bright morning star (Lucifer, in Latin).

Wikipedia has much to say about this. Is "morning star," the planet Venus, Lucifer (Haylail in Isa. 14) a metaphor for brilliant men of noble mien? Quite a puzzlement.

Kevin Kelly in his book "Out of Control"...

2009-08-04T17:48:49.303+12:00

Kevin Kelly in his book "Out of Control" posits that every complex system is highly dependent on its starting conditions. There's a fractal tendency for initial behaviors to repeat themselves in a chaotic pattern around what math professors call a "strange attractor" (Sounds like a good name for Weinland doesn't it?).

Churches are very complex systems.

Herbert and Loma Armstrong's family dysfunctions carried over into the way the church ran. Evil deeds by leaders were covered up, and not spoken of. The ministry acted like an abused wife to the ever angry Herbert. He'd get his wife beater t-shirt on and all the ministers would start cringing and running for cover. What he really needed was a pop in the mouth back. Life eventually gave that to him. Fortunately every tyrant has an expiration date.

Considering how the UCG was formed surreptitiously, it should be no surprise to see it repeat that pattern with ever newer (same pattern though) of defections.

The old guard is aging away. They never loved the next generation anyway - so its no surprise that generation is not too fond of them either. The dirtiest word in COG land is "2nd Generation Christian". The bad news for the old guard is they now outnumber them.

Even the best men tire. My guess is that these tw...

2009-08-04T10:09:04.373+12:00

Even the best men tire. My guess is that these two are men of honor and daily prayer. But the world is changing, the church must adjust, UCG researchers must be coming to inevitable improvements in understanding, some of which will radically change "traditional" teachings and raise a lot of faithful eyebrows (but faithful to what?).

If Einstein hadn't challenged the status quo, we'd still only know Newton's mechanical universe. If church brethren really believe they should call no man master, then they must know that Armstrong's vision is subject to scrutiny, or they're derelict in the sight of God and men.

Even though many oldtimers are deeply attached to the Armstrong heritage, that heritage contained teachings that should be used as stepping stones rather than sacred cows. Armstrong's vision was not the "faith once delivered to the saints," but it was related.

Jude's admonition wasn't written about teachings that would surface or be created in a branch of Christianity 1900 years later. Isn't that obvious?

Jesus was an ardent supporter of the Law, Prophets and Psalms. Like him, is United part of the continuum begun at Sinai? If so, it has a long way to go to recapture all the true values of that ancient revelation. I'm not sure that United has, or ever had, any intention of really contending for the faith that Jude spoke about; but if they do, their good people are as subject to burnout as the rest of us, and will occasionally need a rest, like these two.