Comments on Ambassador Watch: Sesquicentennial

I have some questions about COG7.Is it true some i...

2008-02-29T18:57:00.000+13:00

I have some questions about COG7.
Is it true some in the CG7 teach that there is no law under the New Testament? Do some teach that there came a second revelation of Christianity after the resurrection and that Jesus' earthly ministry cannot be trusted? Do they use the explanation that during His earthly ministry Jesus functioned merely as an Old Testament prophet to the Jews? Would that be the modern replacement for docetism as the rationale for rejecting objectionable portions of Jesus' earthly ministry IF they teach this? Is the buzzword in the CG7 for the second revelation of Chrisitianity "spiritual Christianity"?
I believe Christ kept the law perfectly and we are to imitate Him. He shows us what to do in the scriptures.
These are my questions and not accusations and a side note of my belief.

Hear hear!

2008-02-28T09:00:00.000+13:00

Hear hear!

Ignorance says it hardly makes any difference whet...

2008-02-28T07:58:00.000+13:00

Ignorance says it hardly makes any difference whether or not some behaviors are wrong But it does make a difference because anarchy would make a hell of a difference from a society with rules.

Big whoop. It won't matter when we're dead.

No, but it matters a whole lot while you're still alive, doesn't it?

"For Christians our goal is to shape our lives tow...

2008-02-28T05:37:00.000+13:00

"For Christians our goal is to shape our lives towards the pattern set by Jesus."

That's swell. If some people can't exhibit good behavior on their own, then I suppose whatever it takes to induce them to express morality will work- including worshipping imginary beings.

"That is 'light' not experienced by the unbeliever."

I am not sure what you mean by "light," but many normal (people who do not believe in imaginary beings) people exhibit the same behavior Christians do. All without benefit of a Bible or a "Holy Spirit."

Paul

' All I did was take your admitted viewpoint (whic...

2008-02-27T22:20:00.000+13:00

' All I did was take your admitted viewpoint (which you repeated again in your last post) to it's logical conclusion. You just said that without God, morality is pointless. This shows that you have no inner morality of your own; you really don't understand why stealing is wrong- apart from Zues or Jebus informing you that it is wrong. You've never sought to understand using your own mind why murder is wrong. I don't want to be around people who honestly have no understanding of morality.

Paul '

For Christians our goal is to shape our lives towards the pattern set by Jesus. That is perfection - a goal toward which we work. At the same time we know we are NOW (excuse the caps) 'children of God', and only unbelief can annul that. That is 'light' not experienced by the unbeliever.

"Because if mankind is really on its own -- I mean...

2008-02-27T16:28:00.000+13:00

"Because if mankind is really on its own -- I mean really on its own -- then mankind is nothing more than a highly intelligent form of worm food, and morality is unnecessary for worm food."

So, if there is no God, then you see no point in being empathetic and kind to your neighbor? You would see no point in striving to build an ordered, peaceful society? You see no reason why you should let others live in peace? You demonstrate my point that you really have no inherent morality, or for that matter, a will to live life without a supernatural being ruling over you.

"There. That looks much better. Such extremist and illogical, mush-brained, bigoted, and hyperdogmatic rants...."

All I did was take your admitted viewpoint (which you repeated again in your last post) to it's logical conclusion. You just said that without God, morality is pointless. This shows that you have no inner morality of your own; you really don't understand why stealing is wrong- apart from Zues or Jebus informing you that it is wrong. You've never sought to understand using your own mind why murder is wrong. I don't want to be around people who honestly have no understanding of morality.

Paul

Ignorance says it hardly makes any difference whet...

2008-02-27T16:04:00.000+13:00

"If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly m...

2008-02-27T16:03:00.000+13:00

"If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly makes any difference whether or not some behaviors are wrong..."

Why doesn't it make any difference?

Because if mankind is really on its own -- I mean really on its own -- then mankind is nothing more than a highly intelligent form of worm food, and morality is unnecessary for worm food.

Once again, we see the total abscence of morality in the Christian, for they only see the necessity for good behavior if they have a Diety breathing down their neck. It's sad, and sick in a way. I wouldn't feel comfortable living next to a person whose only reason for not harming me is because his God forbids him; he hasn't, on his own, grasped the concept yet as to why it is wrong to murder.

I think what you really meant to say is, "Once again, we see the TOTAL ABSENCE of morality in the Christian, for they only see the NECESSITY for good behavior if they have a Diety BREATHING DOWN THEIR NECK!!! It's SAD, and SICK in a way. I WOULDN'T FEEL COMFORTABLE LIVING NEXT TO A PERSON whose only reason for not harming me is because HIS GOD FORBIDS HIM; he hasn't, on his own, GRASPED THE CONCEPT yet as to WHY it is WRONG TO MURDER!!!!"

There. That looks much better. Such extremist and illogical, mush-brained, bigoted, and hyperdogmatic rants as you've been wont to spew lately really need to be presented in Armstrongian SCREAMING ALL-CAPS. You really do seem to be the Armstrong of Atheism and Anti-Religion.

"Yeah, but some of them turn ignorance into elitis...

2008-02-27T11:26:00.000+13:00

"Yeah, but some of them turn ignorance into elitism, Paul."

Point taken.

paul

Yeah, but some of them turn ignorance into elitism...

2008-02-27T10:08:00.000+13:00

Yeah, but some of them turn ignorance into elitism, Paul. Remember how anti-intellectual the tone always was at AC/WCG.

BB

"That is the kind of elitism that tends to make at...

2008-02-27T07:33:00.000+13:00

"That is the kind of elitism that tends to make atheists and agnostics stick to their beliefs."

I think it is due to ignorance more than elitism, just as believing in a 6,000 old earth is ignorance, not elitism.

Paul

If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly ma...

2008-02-27T07:30:00.000+13:00

If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly makes any difference whether or not some behaviors are wrong, or whether or not some people happen to believe that some behaviors are wrong.

Mankind really is on its own and over time did invent rules to live by. One tribe of people wrote theirs down in a book. Another tribe wrote a set of rules on an obelisk. Yet another tribe wrote their rules in cuniform on clay tablets.

The rules matter because of the consequences of breaking them. For adultery and murder the consequence is death, for theft it is cutting off one's hands. This is the ancient rules of several different tribes of mankind.

However, in the USA there is no death penalty for adultery but it is still against the rules and it does have consequences - divorce is one of many of those consequences.

Theft no longer gets your hands cut off, as per the Bible, but you can land in jail for a good long while.

Ignorance says it hardly makes any difference whether or not some behaviors are wrong But it does make a difference because anarchy would make a hell of a difference from a society with rules.

Every nation in the world had rules for its people to live under long before Moses was even a wet dream.

I can see a Christian making the point that a Chri...

2008-02-27T07:25:00.000+13:00

I can see a Christian making the point that a Christian's belief system and faith in the deity will get you into the Kingdom, or Heaven, and that maybe there are blessings for living the Christian life right now, in real time, today.

I cannot understand the need, and I say this as a Christian person, to imply that non-believers can't come up with a system of ethics or moral behavior, leading to an orderly society. That is the kind of elitism that tends to make atheists and agnostics stick to their beliefs.

BB

"Human nature needs controls.'Yes, and man has inv...

2008-02-27T04:25:00.000+13:00

"Human nature needs controls.'

Yes, and man has invented those controls.

"The 'Law' is part of man's conscience (so said the other Paul). Christians believe it was implanted by the Creator as the best way for His creation to live..."

So everyone then knows right and wrong because a magic being implanted the His magic Law in them? Well, then we don't need the Bible, then do we?

"..and isn't it! The alternative is that we make up our own rules as we please."

I notice this viewpoint always includes "as we please" or as "man sees fit" which implies that the rules that man will devise could not possibly be moral rules, but would only be rules that would allow more evil behavior. Newsflash: Man did make up his own rules. In fact, some cultures wrote these man-derived rules down, for instance the Bible.

Paul

"If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly m...

2008-02-27T04:19:00.000+13:00

"If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly makes any difference whether or not some behaviors are wrong..."

Why doesn't it make any difference?

Once again, we see the total abscence of morality in the Christian, for they only see the necessity for good behavior if they have a Diety breathing down their neck. It's sad, and sick in a way. I wouldn't feel comfortable living next to a person whose only reason for not harming me is because his God forbids him; he hasn't, on his own, grasped the concept yet as to why it is wrong to murder.

Paul

'I would say that Christians are more immoral, for...

2008-02-27T00:00:00.000+13:00

'I would say that Christians are more immoral, for by their own admission if they were without the Bible they would indulge in all manner of "sinful" behavior, since there is no moral compass outside of the Bible

'Poor Paul etc'

I'll try some light:

Human nature needs controls. The 'Law' is part of man's conscience (so said the other Paul). Christians believe it was implanted by the Creator as the best way for His creation to live (and isn't it! The alternative is that we make up our own rules as we please

Every society imposes some controls or it disintegrates

'Not at all. I don't think calling an idiot an idi...

2008-02-26T23:50:00.000+13:00

'Not at all. I don't think calling an idiot an idiot is wrong at all, especially when said idiot's critical thinking skills are severely curbed(willingly, I might add) by a religious text (among many) supposedly inspired by a magic being. They didn't call it the Dark Ages because the sky was overcast'

Poor Paul. Please switch on the light for him, someone.

Annonymous and all:The COG7 does not officially en...

2008-02-26T18:52:00.000+13:00

Annonymous and all:

The COG7 does not officially endorse Xmas.

However, the COG7 does not police its membership and allows a very libertarian fellowship. There are people in the COG7 who do celebrate Xmas. Although it would not surprise me if it occurred, I am not aware of any singular congregations who officially celebrate Xmas.

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee CA USA

I did not read through all of the comments in this...

2008-02-26T17:56:00.000+13:00

I did not read through all of the comments in this section and this question may have been asked, but didn't COG7, at least some of its congregations, go back to Xmas observance? This is a question to look into and not an accusation. I thought Alan Knight had some good articles on their observances.

Paul wrote: Bill is a member of what many call the...

2008-02-26T17:39:00.000+13:00

Paul wrote: Bill is a member of what many call the Independent COG's. While they do eschew much of the more dangerous elements of Armstrongism, they still hold on to legalism, though they spend countless hours claiming that they are not legalists.

Weinland Watch wrote: Thanks to anonymous for the information on Bill L.

MY RESPONSE:

Greetings Friends! Write me now at PO BOX 111, and request the following two booklets "Is there a REAL Bill Lussenheide?" and "Mystery of the Lussenheide".

Bill Lussenheide , Menifee, CA USA

PS- Send me an offerng twice in a six month period and you will receive my special exclusive "coworker letter".

Are you so blind to reality to think that mankind ...

2008-02-26T17:06:00.000+13:00

Are you so blind to reality to think that mankind could never, on it's own, down the years, come to the conclusion that some behaviors are wrong????

If mankind is really on its own, then it hardly makes any difference whether or not some behaviors are wrong, or whether or not some people happen to believe that some behaviors are wrong.

There are a multitude of religions in this world. ...

2008-02-26T17:02:00.000+13:00

There are a multitude of religions in this world. Only christianity, in all its forms, insists that it is the only religion that is "valid".

Yes, only Christianity . . . and only Islam, and only Orthodox Judaism, and only . . .

Tom said: The Catholic, Protestant and Lutheran ch...

2008-02-26T17:00:00.000+13:00

Tom said: The Catholic, Protestant and Lutheran churches, to name just three, are still out there, but no sane person would argue that God is among them, or that their doctrines reflect the teachings of the bible.

Really? Not even one sane person would argue that God is among them or that their doctrines reflect the teachings of the Bible??

Somehow I doubt Tom is a licensed mental health specialist -- though, who knows, he might be in need of the services of one.

And when did the Lutheran church stop being one of (actually the first of) the Protestant churches?

"Human experience, coupled with logic and survival...

2008-02-26T13:25:00.000+13:00

"Human experience, coupled with logic and survival instincts, make it obvious what is mala in se."

Well said. It's a shame that many others cannot grasp this fact.

"Cliches, and back and forth accusations just don't begin to accomplish as much as a little well placed discernment here and there!"

The problem here is that one side can't discern- at all. Their religious beliefs prevent them from making observations (throughout history humans/civilizations have developed/express morals outside the Bible)and critically analyzing those observations and coming to rational conclusions based on those observations (therefore morality must exist outside of the Bible).

Paul

Let's get a little common sense going here!One tru...

2008-02-26T13:09:00.000+13:00

Let's get a little common sense going here!

One truism HWA used to thunder from the pulpit: Human nature is a combination of good and evil.

Now,it would be easy to simplify and to state that good can only come from God, and evil only comes from Satan. That's not possible. When you become conscious of a concept, you also, by implication, become conscious of the opposite of that concept. It's unavoidable. IOW, to be familiar with truth means that you will also recognize the absence of truth, or a lie. In Genesis, the Serpent tells Eve that if she eats the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, she will become as a god, and know both good and evil.

Evil, or bad comes in two forms: mala in se, and mala prohibita. Mala in se describes acts which have been recognized throughout history by nearly all cultures as bad. Murder, rape, robbery, child beating, incest, and other acts which harm fellow humans are mala in se. Human experience, coupled with logic and survival instincts, make it obvious what is mala in se.

Mala prohibita encompasses acts which are bad only because they are prohibited, or forbidden. Speeding, failure to get a building permit for mods to your home, smoking marijuana, or getting a bogus smog certificate for your car are all examples of mala prohibita acts.

Much of the legalism in the Bible covers the mala prohibita activities, while at least some of the ten commandments cover mala in se.

As a Christian, I recognize that there are many atheists and agnostics who have a good code of ethics. I trust them more than some of the modern day Pharisees, and manipulative Christians whom I've met.

Cliches, and back and forth accusations just don't begin to accomplish as much as a little well placed discernment here and there!

BB