Comments on Ambassador Watch: How to Read the Bible

Jared saith :It's not a contradiction -- it's just...

2008-02-20T02:28:00.000+13:00

Jared saith :

It's not a contradiction -- it's just a failure on your part to read carefully and with comprehension. But then you've lately been showing yourself incapable of reading the Scriptures in any but the most tendentious and invidious of manners.

Well, with that coming from you, it's for sure that my tendentiousness and invidiousness is taking me down the right road.

You can prove anything you want to from the Bible (as you just did) because it is one long string of contradictions, one after another. For almost any scripture you can throw around, with your "Thus saith the Lord!" routine, I can throw another one around that says, "Thus saith the Lord NOT!"

Everybody does that which is right in his own eyes -- and all the time. And everybody likes to think that their opinions and fantasies are the "correct" ones to have. And anybody who denies this is a liar. Which makes Christians some of the biggest liars around.

Now you have yourself a nice day there, Jared.

By the way, Isa. 55:5 refers to the Gentiles, non-...

2008-02-19T18:32:00.000+13:00

By the way, Isa. 55:5 refers to the Gentiles, non-Israelite peoples, as "a nation you knew not" and "nations that knew you not." There is similar language in Deut. 28, which speaks of "a nation which you know not" attacking Israel as punishment of unfaithfulness to the covenant.

I'm gonna let you have that one Jared, because I d...

2008-02-19T18:23:00.000+13:00

I'm gonna let you have that one Jared, because I don't have the time or the inclination to show you the contradictions to your understanding of that verse from Jeremiah.

Or rather, from your interpretation of Jeremiah. But I rather doubt there's any more merit to your reading of Jeremiah than there is to your reading of Deut. 32.

Suffice to say that Israel is called the foolish people with no understanding.

No, in Deut. 32:28 the reference is not to Israel, but to Israel's Gentile enemies (v. 27) who would mistakenly boast that their victory over Israel was due to their own strength, and that the Lord had nothing to do with it. But the Gentiles "are a people devoid of reason, having no understanding. If they had insight they would realize what happened, they would understand their future and say, 'How could one man rout a thousand, or two men put ten thousand to flight, unless it was because their Rock sold them and the LORD delivered them up?'"

Your interpretation of verse 28 would turn verse 30 on its head -- if Israel is the people devoid of reason in verse 28, then it is the pagan Gentiles who are delivered up by the Lord, their Rock, in verse 30. But the pagans were not the chosen people, so the Lord is not their Rock, as it says in verse 31, "Indeed, their 'rock' is not like our Rock, and our foes are under condemnation."

The gentile nations are never called "a nation" etc. foolish or otherwise.

They are in Deut. 32.

Plus, it is the gentiles who are jealous of Israel's location on the trade routes between the east and north and south.

There's not a hint of that in Deut. 32, which is concerned with Israel's faithfulness and unfaithfulness to his covenant with God, not with geopolitical matters such as trade routes.

You have to remember that it is not Moses who wrote this story but the returners from the Babylonian exile.

For our purposes it doesn't matter who wrote Deut. 32. It only matters what Deut. 32 is talking about -- and it's not talking about what say it is.

You need only consider the poetic parallelism of verses 16 and 21. "They provoked him with strange gods and angered him with abominable idols" -- pagan foreigner Gentiles cannot provoke God with "strange" (foreign) gods, as those gods are the Gentiles own, not strange to them at all. Verse 16 is talking about Israel worshipping gods other than the Lord, and the parellism (not to mention the story flow) shows that verse 21 us talking about Israel, not Gentiles, worshipping gods other than the Lord, and God responded by "provoking" and "angering" Israel with Gentiles, who are "no-people" because they are not in a covenant with God and thus are not the chosen people, and are a foolish nation because they do not know and worship God. (The next few verses go on to describe Israel's defeat and captivity at the hands of Gentile conquerors -- so in its primary meaning verse 21 isn't referring to all Gentiles in general, but to specific Gentile nations, that is, Assyria and Chaldea.)

I'm gonna let you have that one Jared, because I d...

2008-02-19T17:51:00.000+13:00

I'm gonna let you have that one Jared, because I don't have the time or the inclination to show you the contradictions to your understanding of that verse from Jeremiah.

Suffice to say that Israel is called the foolish people with no understanding. The gentile nations are never called "a nation" etc. foolish or otherwise. Plus, it is the gentiles who are jealous of Israel's location on the trade routes between the east and north and south.

You have to remember that it is not Moses who wrote this story but the returners from the Babylonian exile.

Stinger said: Er, excuse me there Jared. But YHVH ...

2008-02-19T17:37:00.000+13:00

Stinger said: Er, excuse me there Jared. But YHVH found them in comfy Egypt, not the god forsaken barren desert he later "led" them into.

Wrong. The Torah plainly says that the encounter between God and Israel took place at Mount Sinai, in the desert, not in comfy Egypt. The covenant was made with Israel in the desert, not in Egypt.

Ok, I know it's just another Bible contradiction you can explain away, depending upon what phase the moon is in today.

It's not a contradiction -- it's just a failure on your part to read carefully and with comprehension. But then you've lately been showing yourself incapable of reading the Scriptures in any but the most tendentious and invidious of manners.

Jared said :He found them in a wilderness, a waste...

2008-02-19T14:59:00.000+13:00

Jared said :

He found them in a wilderness, a wasteland of howling desert.

Er, excuse me there Jared. But YHVH found them in comfy Egypt, not the god forsaken barren desert he later "led" them into. (Which is no wonder why his "chosen" people did not want to go there.)

With a god like that, who needs a Satan?

Ok, I know it's just another Bible contradiction you can explain away, depending upon what phase the moon is in today. But you really got your religious tit caught in a ringer there -- quoting "scripture."

Corky claimed: The "no people" and "foolish nation...

2008-02-19T08:19:00.000+13:00

Corky claimed: The "no people" and "foolish nation" [of Deut. 32:21] refers to Israel, not the gentiles. It is the gentiles who are provoked to jeaslousy by God choosing Israel out of all the nations even though Israel was the smallest of all.

Sorry, but there is absolutely no way that your interpretation of Deut. 32:21 could be correct, Corky. The preceding verses describe Israel's unfaithfulness to God, leading up to a statement that Israel offered sacrifices to idols, to things that are not God. Starting in verse 8:

When the Most High assigned the nations their heritage, when he parceled out the descendants of Adam, He set up the boundaries of the peoples after the number of the sons of God;
While the LORD's own portion was Jacob, His hereditary share was Israel.
He found them in a wilderness, a wasteland of howling desert. He shielded them and cared for them, guarding them as the apple of his eye.
As an eagle incites its nestlings forth by hovering over its brood, So he spread his wings to receive them and bore them up on his pinions.
The LORD alone was their leader, no strange god was with him.
He had them ride triumphant over the summits of the land and live off the products of its fields, Giving them honey to suck from its rocks and olive oil from its hard, stony ground;
Butter from its cows and milk from its sheep, with the fat of its lambs and rams; Its Bashan bulls and its goats, with the cream of its finest wheat; and the foaming blood of its grapes you drank.
(So Jacob ate his fill,) the darling grew fat and frisky; you became fat and gross and gorged. They spurned the God who made them and scorned their saving Rock.
They provoked him with strange gods and angered him with abominable idols.
They offered sacrifice to demons, to "no-gods," to gods whom they had not known before, To newcomers just arrived, of whom their fathers had never stood in awe.
You were unmindful of the Rock that begot you, You forgot the God who gave you birth.
When the LORD saw this, he was filled with loathing and anger toward his sons and daughters.
'I will hide my face from them," he said, "and see what will then become of them. What a fickle race they are, sons with no loyalty in them!
"Since they have provoked me with their 'no-god' and angered me with their vain idols, I will provoke them with a 'no-people'; with a foolish nation I will anger them.

Follow the narrative: Israel is chosen by God and becomes the Covenant People, but they are unfaithful to the covenant and instead worship foreign gods, to "no-god" -- so God upbraids them as "sons with no loyalty in them" and announces that he will provoke them with a "no-people" and will anger them with a foolish nation.

Since the sons with no loyalty are the Israelites, the "no-people"/foolish nation cannot be Israelites, and hence are Gentiles.

So, whether or not you agree with St. Paul's interpretation of Deut. 32:21, there can be absolutely no doubt that Deut. 32:21 is talking about Gentiles making the Jews jealous, not Jews making Gentiles jealous. Your interpretation is in conflict with the meaning and flow of the words leading up to verse 21.

St. Tom saith:You have not said anything to indica...

2008-02-18T09:49:00.000+13:00

St. Tom saith:

You have not said anything to indicates [sic] that you have the faintest understanding of them. But I knew that before you limped to the keyboard to shout at me!

That's because you can't read, Tom. Nor do you even have a fundamental understanding of the Jewish scriptures. All that you know about such can be summed up in one word:

Armstrongology

As for shouting, no need for that here, as you are (spiritually) deaf anyway.

Tom saith,"First, Moses said, I will provoke you t...

2008-02-18T06:55:00.000+13:00

Tom saith,
"First, Moses said, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation will I anger you"(Roms.10:19 and Duet.32:21). The "no people" and "foolish nation" refer to the Gentiles

WRONG! The "no people" and "foolish nation" refers to Israel, not the gentiles. It is the gentiles who are provoked to jeaslousy by God choosing Israel out of all the nations even though Israel was the smallest of all.

The song of Moses is addressed to heaven and earth Deut. 32:1 and not the Jews. I bet you don't quite get that part, do you.

Stingerski shouts:>>>But first you must remove you...

2008-02-18T06:49:00.000+13:00

Stingerski shouts:

>>>But first you must remove your veil so you can at least look at it.<<<

Your capital "A" may apply to yourself, but I will let you be the judge of that.

>>>But I doubt that is possible, just as you doubt that anybody but you can understand the Jewish scriptures.<<<

You have not said anything to indicates that you have the faintest understanding of them. But I knew that before you limped to the keyboard to shout at me!

>>>What an arrogant toad you are, sir.<<<

Truth is never arrogant, it is ignorance that is arrogant about things it doesn't understand.

Tom saith :Sadly, I doubt that you are able to und...

2008-02-18T02:47:00.000+13:00

Tom saith :

Sadly, I doubt that you are able to understand what I have just written, but the odd lurker might.

Well, this "odd lurker" understands that you have no idea of what you are talking about!

"And not as Moses, who put a vail [sic] over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end" (the "end" here means the fulfilment [sic] or outcome)"of that which is abolished: But their minds were BLINDED: for until this day" (17 Feb. 2008)"remains the same vail [sic] untaken away in the reading of the OT." That is why I said that the Jews do not understand the meaning of the OT.

Excuse me, but Paul got it wrong again (as he sometimes did). This veil has nothing to do with the Jews and their understanding, or lack thereof, of their own scriptures. Please go back and re-read the account in the Jewish testament. (But take off your own veil first, see below.) You are as far off base here as Paul was.

Amazing coming from you [Corky], when you think the bible is fiction.

This is more bad logic on your part. We know that Grimm's Fairy Tales are fiction, with a nugget of truth in each. The same with Aesop's Fables. But we can still discuss the merits of such books. You don't need to believe that the Bible is not fiction in places (which it certainly is, unless you want to believe in talking animals, i.e. back to Aesop) to be able to discuss it.

Your problem, Tom, is that while you think the Jews are blinded by this veil that only Moses wore, you are wearing an even more obfuscating veil, a veil which has a large capital A on it. Now I will let you go and ponder what that means. But first you must remove your veil so you can at least look at it. But I doubt that is possible, just as you doubt that anybody but you can understand the Jewish scriptures.

What an arrogant toad you are, sir.

Corky said:>>>The last time I looked, Paul is not ...

2008-02-18T00:32:00.000+13:00

Corky said:

>>>The last time I looked, Paul is not Moses. We want to see where Moses "prophesied that God would blind them during the times of the calling of the Gentiles".<<<

Amazing coming from you, when you think the bible is fiction. However, Paul referring to the Jews' blindness said, "First, Moses said, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation will I anger you"(Roms.10:19 and Duet.32:21). The "no people" and "foolish nation" refer to the Gentiles whom God began to through the ministry of Jesus and it continued under Paul's dispensation. So when Paul was sent to preach to the Gentiles, it angered and provoke the Jews jealousy. As a consequence, the Jews followed Paul from city to city persecuting him.

In addition, when Moses came down from mount Sinai his face was shining, and he covered his face with a vail. This prophetic event was explained by Paul thus: "And not as Moses, who put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not steadfastly look to the end" (the "end" here means the fulfilment or outcome)"of that which is abolished: But their minds were BLINDED: for until this day" (17 Feb. 2008)"remains the same vail untaken away in the reading of the OT." That is why I said that the Jews do not understand the meaning of the OT.

However, during the times of the Gentiles, a Jewish remnant is being called, but the majority have been blinded. Paul sums it up thus: "What then?" (meaning what conclusions should we draw from what has been said so far?), he added, "Israel has not obtained that which he seek for; but the election has obtained it, and the rest were BLINDED."

This sublime doctrine began with the question, "What advantage then has the Jew?" And after God revealed the answer to Paul, it ended with, "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out"(Roms.11:33).

Sadly, I doubt that you are able to understand what I have just written, but the odd lurker might.

I want to be able to look the Deity in the eye and...

2008-02-17T11:04:00.000+13:00

I want to be able to look the Deity in the eye and say, "You didn't clearly state your case. You should never have used humans to try. It made you look bad and lazy. A nice luncheon, a slide show and a sermon no longer than one hour with a follow up question and real answer session should have been sufficient."

"He who created you without your consent will not save you without your consent" -- St. Augustine of Hippo

Tom Mahon said... AllHere is the proof that the Je...

2008-02-17T10:50:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon said...
All

Here is the proof that the Jews don't understand the OT.

Paul was inspired to write:

Now hold on just a cotton pickin' second there soothsayer. You said,

"For Moses, whom they revere but don't understand, prophesied that God would blind most of them during the times of the calling of the Gentiles"

The last time I looked, Paul is not Moses. We want to see where Moses "prophesied that God would blind them during the times of the calling of the Gentiles".

Either that or admit to being a lying goof-ball.

To anon quoting Genesis, I have a companion quote ...

2008-02-17T10:30:00.000+13:00

To anon quoting Genesis, I have a companion quote for you:

"As a further protection against them Ra promised to impart to magicians and snake-charmers the particular word of power, hekau, with which he guarded himself against the attacks of serpents, and also to transmit it to his son Osiris. Thus those who are ready to listen to the formulae of the snake-charmers shall always be immune from the bites of serpents, and their children also."

AllHere is the proof that the Jews don't understan...

2008-02-17T09:46:00.001+13:00

All

Here is the proof that the Jews don't understand the OT.

Paul was inspired to write: "For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the Synagogues every Sabbath day"(Acts 15:21). Although this was written nearly two thousands years ago, it could have been written today, for the Torah is read every Sabbath day in thousands of Synagogues around the world. So for the Jews nothing has changed! But do the Jews understand what they are reading? Not according to Paul.

Note again what Paul was inspired to write: "For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not," the "him" refers to Jesus, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every Sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him"(Acts 13:27). Please note the phrase, "the voices of the prophets," which we are told they don't understand, but are read every Sabbath day in their Synagogues. Paul goes on to prove their ignorance of what they are reading by inferring, 'for if they had understood "the voices of the prophets," that is, the meaning of their message, they would not have condemned Christ, while calling for the release of Barabus.'

Now if I was writing this for the benefit of people who might be capable of understanding the bible, I would cite several more Scriptural texts to prove conclusively that most Jews have been blinded during the times of the calling of the Gentiles, though at this time a remnant is being called according to the election of grace. But from my experience here, most contributors tend to ignore the substance of my posts, and hurl abuse at Mr. Armstrong.

Anon wrote:GOD's PLAN in a nutshell:Gen 3:15 and I...

2008-02-17T09:46:00.000+13:00

Anon wrote:
GOD's PLAN in a nutshell:
Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Nutshell indeed! This passage is a perfect example of interpreters letting their imagination run away with them. There's no prophecy here, just an observation about the dislike humans feel for snakes... and what happens if you step or stomp on one.

If you want to suggest otherwise you have to go way beyond the obvious literal meaning of the text.

Tired Skeptic said...TM>>The spiritual blindness o...

2008-02-17T08:58:00.000+13:00

Tired Skeptic said...

TM>>The spiritual blindness of the Jews is the greatest proof of the divine origin of the bible.

TS>>>This is a self-contradictory statement which makes no sense.<<

Why not post an explanation of the contradiction, so that we can all be enlightened?

The rest of your diatribe(I almost described it as celebrated, but it wasn't that good)is nothing more than a striving for eloquence to the absence of content.

But you may be surprised to learn, that eloquence, which is the garish of thought, is coy. She must be long courted and is seldom won, unless her suitor is a man of virtue, understanding and wisdom. Your premature and sudden attack on her is tantamount to the attempted rape of a chaste woman, who was forced to resist you to preserve her purity.

Speaking of religious programming still running in...

2008-02-17T08:27:00.000+13:00

Speaking of religious programming still running in one's head, I've always wondered why spiritual fiends with huge Herbal egos, rather than having messed with our heads in the first place, didn't simply get into some other creative art.

Drama certainly comes to mind. God knows these guys can and do put on a heck of an act every sabbath and Bible Study. Poetry?
Rock n Roll? Hey, now there's the ticket! I could really get behind Ronnie and the Weimereiners, or Little Joey and the Cutwinds! Man, these guys could probably really get outrageous on stage, and obtain all the adulation they covet through their ministry!

As a cautionary tale, though, I'm reminded of how one young man got the wrong message at Ambassador College. He was into music. As he was leaving college, he told his friends that he had taken a Nazarite vow so that he could grow long hair, and he considered it his calling to warn the world through some apocalyptic songs which he had written. Now, none of us have ever heard of him since, as he kind of fell off the ACOG earth so to speak, but I often wonder what became of him. I mean, I knew some other folks that pursued musical careers with some local club success, but our little Nazarite buddy was the only one I ever knew to combine the ACOG apocalypse with a musical career!

BB

Dennis wrote: "This is the very reason one has to ...

2008-02-17T07:01:00.000+13:00

Dennis wrote: "This is the very reason one has to say that God does not present a convincing case. No human would reject an obvious Deity who was live and in color explaining clearly that the plan is real and this is how it works."

I was writing a response last night and mid-way through, Windows Vista started updating itself and logged me off. I lost all the "brilliant" text.

God is not going to show up in our lives in a dramatic way at this time. I cannot expect to walk out into my back yard and see a pillar of fire or some other theophany. This is the time for the academic consideration of the existence of God.

God could easily show up in person and validate his existence (and will do this eventually.) He could have structured the geological record in such a way that his existence would be undeniable. Like having the strata reflect the beginning of the Adamic period with no past eons of flora and fauna reflected. (In principle, this has happened with the Cambrian Explosion).

But why would he not do this? Because the present reality requires faith and belief. And that faith and belief is initiated by the grace of God. But people may choose to respond to it or may choose to reject it.

Atheists are fond of citing that existence of God cannot be validated by the Scientific Method. This is not actually true but I believe the way the Atheists would like to construct the experiment, they will never "discover" God.

But there is an essential dishonesty here. Atheists do not cling to Scientific Method because it is tool of inquiry but because it is their supposed insurance against the existence of God.

There is a mystical, faith-based, experiential beginning point in understanding that God exists. It requires a pre-disposition of the will. Consequently, some people will never get it because they do not have the will to get it. Their will is obstructed by the worship of Self.

I have encountered many people who are in a desperate, sometimes agonized, search for meanining in life. They sit at the feet of a great variety of religious gurus or presumptuous academics in this grand and life long search. But the pre-condition to their seeking is that God cannot exist, at least the Christian God. It is not surprising that they never find God.

People do not believe in God for many putative reasons. But all these reasons simplify to the principle that they do not want to believe in God. Most are comfortable with this idea and do not say much about it. Others are uncertain and spend a lot of time in proselyting for atheism in the pursuit of self-affirmation. It is as if they believe that if they say it enough it will be true.

I would be the first to admit that many of the statements made by Christians, and the statements I have made in this post, about atheists can be reversed. (Just like I can say of the statement "when one already knows what one thinks, one has no problem at all stacking the evidence to prove it", that this is really a good description of Darwinian evolution.)
Atheists can look at Christian faith and say that it is delusional. Ultimately, we must turn to the fact that God is in the life of some people and not others. And at this point all the arguing ceases, at least from the Christian perspective.

God is sovereign but he limits his sovereignty to permit humans to decide about him. Ultimately, he will say to those who reject him "Not my will, but thy will be done."

-- Neo

Did someone say the book was too expensive?41 used...

2008-02-17T03:55:00.000+13:00

Did someone say the book was too expensive?

41 used and new

Dennis says:
"Personally, I realize the religion program still runs in my head and , for me, overwriting that program is accomplished by learning what was wrong with it in the first place."

Such true truth it bears repeating! ;)

>>DD: This is the very reason one has to say that ...

2008-02-17T02:02:00.000+13:00

>>DD: This is the very reason one has to say that God does not present a convincing case. No human would reject an obvious Deity who was live and in color explaining clearly that the plan is real and this is how it works.<<

GOD's PLAN in a nutshell:
Gen 3:15 and I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed: he shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

>>DD: This is the very reason one has to say that ...

2008-02-17T01:58:00.000+13:00

>>DD: This is the very reason one has to say that God does not present a convincing case. No human would reject an obvious Deity who was live and in color explaining clearly that the plan is real and this is how it works.<<

EYES TO SEE...
...that which is known of God is manifest in them; for God manifested it unto them.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him since the creation of the world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may be without excuse:
Rom 1:21 because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God, neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and their senseless heart was darkened.
Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools

DennisDiehl said...>>Tom said:This is not surprisi...

2008-02-16T23:27:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl said...

>>Tom said:
This is not surprising, as most Jewish people won't mention Jesus if their lives depended on it. Most of them still believe in the authority of Moses, and that the Messiah is yet to come."

DD>>>>There are reasons why they believe this, and while a mystery to you, are not much of a mystery to them.<<<

I didn't say that there were not reasons. I was just stating a fact, which you have not challenged or rebutted.

>>Tom said:

"On the other hand, the complexity of your mindset might be beyond my ability to fathom. But as a former member of WCG, you were exposed to the truth of the gospel, although you didn't realise it."<<

DD>>>One man's 'complexity' is another's critical thinking. Gavin and all of us were exposed to an idea of truth. One of hundreds of such Christian endeavors.<<<

The term "complexity" was not intended as a criticism. It was an expression of the processes of the mind in its search for the truth. The human mind is indeed very complex, and what it is capable of defies comprehension, as man is inscrutable to his fellow man. Psychologists and psychiatrists might deceive some people into believing that they can understand the workings of the human mind, but our prisons and mental institutions bare testimony of their ignorance.

>>>Tom said:

"For Moses, whom they revere but don't understand, prophesied that God would blind most of them during the times of the calling of the Gentiles"<<<

DD>>>You haven't spoken to very many well educated Rabbi's about their own book have you Tom..<<<

Actually, I have, and their greatest Rabbi told me that they don't understand the significance of the OT.

BTW, later I will post proof that the Jewish people, to this day, don't understand the OT.

I think I'll be an Apostle - maybe even a witness ...

2008-02-16T22:07:00.000+13:00

I think I'll be an Apostle - maybe even a witness or two. Hey, it beats working for a living.

As my first Apostolic admonition to the Brethren:

God's way is GIVE. TIME IS VERY SHORT.

Brethren can begin sending their 1st, 2nd and 3rd tithes, tithe of tithes, offerings, emergency fund offerings, holy day offerings and all building fund contributions to Church of God Nineveh's Hope, Jonah's Whale and Wailing Members at PO. Box 3049, Crofton, Maryland 21114.

Please update your estate plans leaving all your worldly possessions to Church of God Nineveh's Hope, Jonah's Whale and Wailing Members. After you have done so, please leave the world soon!

Did I mention we take Visa, MasterCard, American Express and Paypal?

Richard