Comments on Ambassador Watch: Big Trouble in Big Sandy

thesoilman said..."Yes I can. I think I will let t...

2008-02-10T17:59:00.000+13:00

thesoilman said..."Yes I can. I think I will let those who want to know write or e-mail the Church of God Big Sandy and ask for the information. I will probly be the one to send it but then I will have gone through proper channels."

Thank you for your response. But I think writing/emailing would take away me wanting to remain anonymous so I won't be doing that.

We'll wait and see if the "reason" is told or not. I would hope that John Warren would also be given the same advantage of stating his side of things as well because truthfully we know that there is two sides to this story.

Another question for thesoilman:Why were the membe...

2008-02-10T08:43:00.000+13:00

Another question for thesoilman:

Why were the members who had chosen to meet separately in another town specifically singled out and shamed for not paying respect to a man they no longer felt in harmony with, in both the minutes of the report, and on the public bulletin issued on the website?

Anonymous asked if I could say why John was remove...

2008-02-07T17:26:00.000+13:00

Anonymous asked if I could say why John was removed from the Board.
Yes I can. I think I will let those who want to know write or e-mail the Church of God Big Sandy and ask for the information. I will probly be the one to send it but then I will have gone through proper channels. As soon as I can get the info on the minutes to the web master it will be there for those to see. I believe it will be in the Journal that Dixon puts out so I don`t want to have it out befor he prints. :-) Some have called me and I have read what the President of the Board said was the reason, not reasons but reason. Thanks for asking, the answer will be out soon......
Neil McIver

thesoilman:Can you answer the question as to why w...

2008-02-07T13:41:00.000+13:00

thesoilman:

Can you answer the question as to why was John Warren removed from the Board?

Hello everyone, Interesting site.I am the new Secr...

2008-02-07T10:09:00.000+13:00

Hello everyone, Interesting site.

I am the new Secretary of the COGBS Board of Trusttees. I did not know until recently, when I was asked for the minutes by our web master, that it was supposed to be done. The man who was Secretary before me did not know about this so he did not let me know this was to be done. This is the time of year where I make most of my living in the next few months for the year so I will be out of town alot but will try to have it to the web master by March 1st. Anyone who asks may see the Minutes at church or at the Board Meetings. I will be happy to bring them. We have nothing to hide, and this is an innocent oversight, since the secretary of the board changes yearly. The board minutes will included the pastor's report, as well as all other church business. Our board meetings are open for all to attend if they so desire. Neil McIver

In response to something dc said about the COGBS b...

2008-02-05T11:37:00.000+13:00

In response to something dc said about the COGBS board meeting minutes.

"It is current policy that the minutes of every board meeting appear in the weekly bulletin, which goes up on the website and which people attending Sabbath services may pick up as hard copies as they walk into the church building."

What is put in the bulletin is a synopsis customarily written by the board secretary but not the actual approved minutes. The minutes are not given out to the membership or public but are to be kept with the board records. I presume that if a member or person wanted to read them in their entirety, they would have to contact the secetary as apparently they are no longer being put on the website. I believe they are to be a matter of public record.

The commentary on COGBS is a sad one due to people...

2008-02-02T11:57:00.000+13:00

The commentary on COGBS is a sad one due to people being hurt, but until we get away from "man-made" churches and follow Christ as our head and let God truly build the Church then I think we will continue to see splits.

As far as the comment made that implied "legalistic" views by the bylaws and proper procedure at board meetings being questioned...that person does not seem to understand how a corporation is supposed to function...and that is what it is is...a corporation of the State of Texas.

When reading the COGBS bulletin, please realize that it is written, edited and monitored by the Pastor and can only report what he allows. The congregation does not have a voice where the bulletin is concerned.

Unless you are involved you cannot truly grasp all that is taking place.

My prayers are with all of us being effected by this including those that would use deceptive practices and manipulation. Because some have chosen to not congregate with COGBS on a regular basis they are no less Christian but trying to follow Christ and worship in peace where they feel welcomed. The Sabbath is to be a delight.

I am appalled at the "whose side are you on" questions arising again. We should all be on the side of Christ and no man. True disciples love one another.

Let's be forward looking and get over the past. The only power that doesn't corrupt is the power of the Holy Spirit. Let us all walk humbly with God.

I was an unbaptized member of a God's church for ...

2008-02-01T14:32:00.000+13:00

I was an unbaptized member of a God's church for a few yrs and have just woke up this week. I started to do something one of the ministers actually told me to do, read everything I can on line about the WWCG origins. I have seen 2 pastors die, and now it is a royal mess. I never understood or saw the infighting and church power struggles until lately. But enough is enough! One of the many red flags I recognized right away, is the claim the Herbie is an end time Apostle and I asked if that is so, then why is he not mentioned in the Bible? And the placing of the picture of sweet old Herb at the FOT gave me the eeriest feeling of wrong, wrong this is wrong. He is a man. All of those predictions that did not come to pass? What a hoot! But many people simply do not want to read and are not going to hear it from the ministry, except a bland, oh he made mistakes! Oh did he ever. And what about the 2d wife of his, 46 years younger and he was deceived?? Poor guy... right! That and the story of the incest were simply too much for me. I have decided not to worry about it another minute and take back my life. I thank God and Jesus that I am not going to ignore all the red flags I saw and be deceived any longer by their scare tactics and constant talk of the lake of fire, and all the talk like a bunch of Pharisees. I am out and glad that my husband who was always too smart for this advertisers hype! sign me as breathing easy now.

byker bob said:"I think we can know beyond the sha...

2008-01-31T01:42:00.000+13:00

byker bob said:
"I think we can know beyond the shadow of a doubt that if the Holy Spirit had ever even been a remote influence in the church built by HWA,..."
" It was all illusion and delusion, promoted by one very strange little man."

The church built by HWA? I thought God was the builder of His church! Why did HWA teach so many truths? Why are there so many who still fellowship together who knew each other from our previous association in WWCG and love and enjoy doing so, have moved on, grown, changed in alot of areas but still hold to the Sabbath, Holy days, food laws, tithing, love...? We don't neccessarily hold to every little itty bitty piece of former "knowledge" and we have ALOT of growing to do but why do we view life this way as opposed to the negative? There were many mistakes made under former associations but if we had looked into our Bible and asked God for the answers, would we have followed blindly along? Who was at fault for our bad decisions? Was it HWA or us?

byker bob also said:

" That there is continued disunity should raise some serious redflags amongst those aspiring to "keep the faith" that they may be on a completely wrong path, one on which the Holy Spirit never did have any presence or influence from the very beginning."

How many times in the New Testament were there problems to deal with among people IN the church? The messages to the churches in Revelation tells of the problems and the good in the churches.

dr. phil proponent said:

"It's time for the Churches of God to get real! The Churches of God need to take responsibility for their choices."

Good advice in that line!

Anonymous answered, "I was with bsCOG when we foun...

2008-01-30T15:46:00.000+13:00

Anonymous answered,

"I was with bsCOG when we founded. We were independant and then joined UCG (BIG mistake)then went independant again. Hope this answers your question."

Thank you for the information.

Makes me think of an episode of Little House on the Prairie in which Mrs. Olsen hitched a restaurant she'd started to someone running a chain of them.
She was sorry she did, as the fine print in the contract (micro-managing by the parent entity) came back to bite her in the rear.

Of course, Michael Landon ended up the hero, making all ok again.

If only Little Joe could make everything all better in COG-land!(NOT Tkach-Joe, I mean the Little Joe from Bonanza!) (I know I'm moving amongst TV shows) with some help from Hoss, Adam, and Paw, riding in on their horses, and throwing some well-deserved punches on jaws and noses...

Heh...heh...

"Perhaps not a perfect solution but at least it wo...

2008-01-30T10:00:00.000+13:00

"Perhaps not a perfect solution but at least it would have left the WCG in the hands of those who had contributed the most to its development.
I wonder what would have happened had he done this.

Lochinvar"

It certainly would have been more ethical and honest.

In supposition, he would surely have been poorer, and many more captives would yet remain in the COG system.

If all who had major doctrinal questions had left the organiztion (many did, we just didn't see them anymore) then only those who continued in their brainwashed mode would have been available to move into the numero uno level.

Lochinvar,What you suggest in your WWIHD comment w...

2008-01-30T09:59:00.000+13:00

Lochinvar,

What you suggest in your WWIHD comment would have required integrity and honesty.

The Tkach clan will never have to work again for generations to come, and live the lifestyle of the wealthy. Stealing a church the size of the WCG pays!

Mel,I was with bsCOG when we founded. We were inde...

2008-01-30T09:53:00.000+13:00

Mel,
I was with bsCOG when we founded. We were independant and then joined UCG (BIG mistake)then went independant again. Hope this answers your question.

WWIHD? As one present at the time of the 'changes'...

2008-01-30T08:43:00.000+13:00

WWIHD? As one present at the time of the 'changes' leaving only after the fumbling maladministration, here's what I would have done and what, naturally I feel Joe Sr should have done:
"Brethren, I have been put in a position by HWA with the expectation of maintaining the dcotrines and practises of the WCG which he built. I now find myself at odds with many of these teachings so I will step down and allow another Pastor-General, chosen by the Council of Elders, to replace me. I will be holding meetings of my own in a locally hired meeting place and if anyone cares to join me they would be most welcome. Goodbye."
Perhaps not a perfect solution but at least it would have left the WCG in the hands of those who had contributed the most to its development.
I wonder what would have happened had he done this.

Lochinvar

Re Tithing. I suggest you read the article 'Be a g...

2008-01-30T00:30:00.000+13:00

Re Tithing. I suggest you read the article 'Be a good steward' in New Horizons Sept/Oct 2007 . View in www.cgom.org

Sorry if this is duplicated: Yesterday's 'disappeared' from the comments

Am I mistaken in thinking COG BS split off from Un...

2008-01-29T17:35:00.000+13:00

Am I mistaken in thinking COG BS split off from United in the past?

If correct, anyone know when and why?

Does anyone know what on earth prompted the COG BS...

2008-01-29T14:39:00.000+13:00

Does anyone know what on earth prompted the COG BS to remove John Warren?

Hey,None of us believe in a flying purple unicorn....

2008-01-29T14:38:00.000+13:00

Hey,
None of us believe in a flying purple unicorn.
I believe in a flying purple hymnal. At least that's what it looked like when I last saw it flying toward my trashcan back in '95.

That's what I was hoping (that you weren't talking...

2008-01-29T12:59:00.000+13:00

That's what I was hoping (that you weren't talking about giving money). Glad to see I was correct. And no, I wasn't trying to pick a fight.

Obviously you've got me mixed up with someone else...

2008-01-29T12:18:00.000+13:00

Obviously you've got me mixed up with someone else. I've consistently stated that I believe tithing was done away, and before it was, it only involved "increase" which was always agricultural. There is no Levitical priesthood, and has not been since AD 70 when Herod's temple was destroyed in the Jewish insurrection by the Romans. Part of the HWAcaca was that we were to believe that WCG ministers were the modern day equivalent of the Levites, but that is just plain stupidity. If you've been reading my posts at all, you know that I cited that same Ernest Martin article that you linked to as support for my position on tithing.

What I said was that I don't have anything against "offerings" per se, if people want to give them and are not coerced. I think you're just looking for a straw man to pick a fight with. I don't even attend church, have nothing to do with WCG, the sphincter groups or even Livingroom Churches of God.

When I give, it is generally to friends or family members, and the occasional homeless person. I never under any circumstances give a red cent to churches or religious teachers. If others wish to contribute to their church or guru, that's their choice. Hope that helps.

BB

To Byker Bob on tithing: Are you referring here to...

2008-01-29T09:26:00.000+13:00

To Byker Bob on tithing: Are you referring here to giving of your time, resources, etcetera? Because if you're thinking of giving your money away, I highly recommend you check out Earnest Martin's treatise, The Dilemma on Tithing before you do.

"I don't see anything wrong with offerings per se. But, they should be totally voluntary, and between the individual giving them, and God."

Here's my question: Do you really think "God", whatever your concept of God might be, has use for/need of/the ability to utilize funny-coloured pieces of paper that arose as a result of purely human-generated capitalism?

(We shall save the debate on capitalism being a religion in its own right for another day, thanks.)

If, after considering all of the above, your answer is still "Yes!" then my next question is: How are you going to get the money to God?

Send it up on the shuttle? Or, if you believe, as I do, that God is extra-dimensional (outside of) our universe, you can't get the money there. Not that the laws of physics would apply there anyway.

(Resulting in such potentially weird and wonderful things as paper being liquid, liquid being solid, etcetera.)

With regards to the argument that we can't limit the CoGs' right to freedom of speech, I agree absolutely, 100%.

However. I think the crux of the argument (made especially well by those over at the Freedom From Religion Foundation) is that the basic human rights of the members of the various Churches of God splinters ARE being subverted.

The same holds true of members of the current incarnation of the Worldwide Church of God, for all Junior's protestations (heh) that they're really happy hippy Jesus-preachin' bible-beaters now.

The members' basic human rights, of access to food, and shelter, and other basic necessities of LIFE are STILL being denied, in the church's zeal to promote the latest "fund-raising" project, which as we all know, includes Junior's multiple cruises per year, and the ministers of misery's European vacations.

Careful financial auditing of any of the corporate megachurches extant in North America today will reveal much the same.

If you want to "tithe" ten percent of your time, or your good-will, or ten percent of your (for example) clothing to a thrift store, or something along those lines, that's commendable.

The danger is when you start giving and giving, with the idea that it's going to bring anything back (except maybe a warm fuzzy). Because it isn't. That's not the way the real world operates.

There are no scorecards, except the ones humans generate. Sacrifice and suffering, however noble they may be in theory, won't get you any further up the rungs of the ladder of life. No matter what any mere mortal preacher-man, or their concomitant holy book, has to say about it.

Re: Tithing. I suggest the article 'Be a Good Stew...

2008-01-29T05:39:00.000+13:00

Re: Tithing. I suggest the article 'Be a Good Steward' in the Nov/Dec New Horizons magazine. View at www.cgom.org

I don't see anything wrong with offerings per se. ...

2008-01-29T04:18:00.000+13:00

I don't see anything wrong with offerings per se. But, they should be totally voluntary, and between the individual giving them, and God. Having a series of manipulative dire emergencies and gunlaps over a fifty year period to extort more than what people would give on a free will basis is just plain wrong, though.

I also feel that, while nobody could ever begin to make meaningful reparations for all of the wrongs and suffering perpetrated by HWA/WCG, even an apology and some sort of rebate would have been both appropriate and appreciated by most. Unfortunately, religion and charities do not offer a money back guarantee as do some reputable retailers. Backers must do their due diligence prior to making substantial donations, or they are pretty much SOL.

What we went through has often been likened to either rape of the soul, or seduction. In this case, the perpetrator has morphed, shrunken, and cloned itself, remaining a threat to future victims. And, you really can't prevent this type of perp from continuing its dastardly deeds without elliminating the freedoms and protections which we enjoy under the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Some folks get so angry at this that they'd even like to see religion abolished and made illegal, but that's not the solution either.

It all boils down to what we do as a committee of one. Most of us will help out the occasional homeless or needy person out of the goodness of our hearts. Now that we're no longer the proverbial frogs in boiling water, it is shocking that a church would exploit this basic goodness.

BB

The CoGBS is an outgrowth of not just the WCG Chur...

2008-01-29T02:11:00.000+13:00

The CoGBS is an outgrowth of not just the WCG Church Corporate but the UCG as well: Expect nothing less over time that Church Corporate tactics no matter how benign things may seem at first.

Sorry, that should have read "number" of the beast...

2008-01-28T20:32:00.000+13:00

Sorry, that should have read "number" of the beast.

One last point though, if you're still a Havir fan, check out his op-ed piece in The Journal (right under Dixon Cartwright's). The relevant quote (emphasis mine)?

"Not only should a believer find peace and edification in his home and in his place of worship, a believer should be a tool of peace and edification.

"Don't allow well-meaning family and friends to place a guilt trip on you to talk you into attending a larger congregation. (For that matter, don't allow well-meaning family and friends to place a guilt trip on you to convince you to attend a home fellowship.)"

So. Don't disagree with us, don't listen to those who disagree with us, and don't let anyone talk you into coming to church here, but don't let them talk you into going to church at somebody's house, either.

Did I get all that? I think I did.

Same old CoG logic. Stun them with contradictions, and hope they'll stay stunned long enough to pass in the special offering envelopes, and kick them to the curb if they show any signs of "disturbing the peace". And by peace, I think you know I mean brainwashing.