Comments on Ambassador Watch: Matches in the Gas Tank

Bob, Leonardo, time for a breather!

2009-09-26T11:40:28.797+12:00

Bob, Leonardo, time for a breather!

Byker Bob strikes out in anger with: "I know ...

2009-09-26T08:34:16.195+12:00

Byker Bob strikes out in anger with:
"I know your type. You, like Eric Von Zipper in the Beach Blanket movies of the sixties, are your own idol!"

Excellent, Bob, just what I expected - your initial parry is another meaningless, snide and accusatory "Christian" comment completely unrelated to the immediate topic at hand. You just “know” so many things, don’t you? But remember these words: it is the things we know least about that we speak with such confidence and certainty of. And you most definitely are the poster boy for that truism.

Bob continues his perceptive analysis:
“regardless of the topic being discussed, I can tell that you are simply looking for a fight with anyone whom you think is willing to take you on.”

Actually, wrong again, Bobster! In reality, my primary motive is to seek to further the depth, clarity and accuracy of my understanding of reality – not to engage in endless verbal tangles. Though, admittedly, I do not shy away from them, especially when it comes to major metaphysical issues, such as we discuss here.

Bob also writes:
“I often earned kudos from some of the same atheists and agnostics who now regularly denigrate my intelligence and the logic of my posts.”

OK, so what? I don’t seek kudos or recognition from anybody here, just meaningful dialog. That’s what I’m really interested in.

And Bob, don’t worry about what other people say or think – it’s my observation that your very own WORDS denigrate your position far more than what others could ever do.

Bob continues:
“Because of my unique perspective, I don't take most of the negative comments personally.”

Bob, your perspective is NOT all that unique. I know you like to imagine that it is, and that you somehow have an advantage over the rest of us because of your re-conversion to supernatural religion – but your standard lines of circular reasoning are very typical of the average fundamentalist mindset. I know because I’ve engaged in many conversations with them – COG and many others, either in person or on-line. You bring nothing new or especially enlightening to the table when it comes to your religious views and opinions, believe me.

Bob concludes his words with:
“The wonderful fact is that even in spite of the curse, God's goodness does often shine through for those who seek Him.”

Well, then, Bob, perhaps you’re not seeking Him as hard as you should be. Maybe that’s the explanation, I don’t know.

And then the standard sound-bite religious slogan conclusion: Bob, did you not learn anything in Spokesman’s Club?

Once again, you’ve only provided yet another in a long line of meaningless comments. For someone who has an inside track to the Eternal, and a clearer view of reality (remember your claim to such in a comment you made several weeks ago?) you really do disappoint in your bland rebuttles.

Leo, I know your type. You, like Eric Von Zipper...

2009-09-26T07:39:12.445+12:00

Leo,

I know your type. You, like Eric Von Zipper in the Beach Blanket movies of the sixties, are your own idol! Also, regardless of the topic being discussed, I can tell that you are simply looking for a fight with anyone whom you think is willing to take you on. Your last "book" proves this, because you even attacked my expression of some things which I know you agree were wrong with Armstrongism.

I'm not worried about your assessment of my abilities to articulate ideas, because others have expressed the complete opposite of your opinion of this over a number of years in times past. I was not aware of your presence on these forums and blogs during my agnostic days, but I can tell you that back then I often earned kudos from some of the same atheists and agnostics who now regularly denigrate my intelligence and the logic of my posts. But, that's ok, as Democrats and Republicans have been doing this to one another for years!

I do wonder, though, whether the very idea that God could open the mind of an agnostic or atheist might seem scary or threatening to some. If I were still agnostic, I'd probably be joining in to repudiate and annihilate every word that such a person posted. Because of my unique perspective, I don't take most of the negative comments personally. They just make me pray all the more diligently for you non-believer type folks. Also, I admit to being new to the Christian faith after over thirty years of agnosticism, so I may not be the best possible witness for Father God and Jesus Christ.

BTW, I've found that the greater Christian community, of which we were all once kept largely unaware, does enjoy a great deal of diversity. But there is also quite a bit of unity in spreading the gospel, and in administering to poor and oppressed peoples around the world. And, I suspect that this will remain true so long as we continue to live our physical lives in a cursed world. The wonderful fact is that even in spite of the curse, God's goodness does often shine through for those who seek Him.

BB

Larry writes: "Why, thank you Mel. My voice o...

2009-09-26T06:13:59.005+12:00

Larry writes:
"Why, thank you Mel. My voice of civility is much needed because Rudeness Runs Rampant here. But, then you already knew that. Since MY frontal lobes are highly developed, I can let that last statement slide."

Once again, Professor Larry (PhD.) imagines himself to be the “voice of civility” while providing us with yet another one of his snide remarks, empty of anything meaningful as usual, but all done out of sincere purity of motive, and in Christian love, of course.

Larry, you very unfortunately mistake rationality, logic, facts, evidence and articulateness for rudeness - and this is your problem, not ours.

And if your frontal lobes are as highly developed as you imagine them to be, then why is such cerebral power NEVER apparent in the many comments you make.

Remember, a man’s words are the truest index of his mind.

I mean, seriously, I honestly don’t think I’ve ever read even ONE single comment you’ve made here on this website that has either been well-expressed, or has any merit or substantive insight in it whatsoever. Not ONE! And I must tell you, I find this especially puzzling since you are a self-proclaimed scientist with a PhD from a world-class university. Yet you write like someone who hasn’t even graduated from middle school. Strange.

Larry, it appears that in addition to mistaking rationality for rudeness, you also appear to be mistaking the phylacteries hanging on your forehead for massive frontal lobe development.

Larry wrote: "Don't you understand that s...

2009-09-26T05:50:16.913+12:00

Larry wrote:
"Don't you understand that some of the people who disagree are just as right as you are?"

No, Larry, not in certain areas were objective facts are in abundance and easily verified, I DON’T understand, simply because they AREN’T - and the proof is plain for anyone to see in the very words of those I attempt to counter.

You seem to have bought into the “politically correct” nonsense that “all opinions are equally valid.”

Well, all expressed opinions are NOT equally valid or in equal accordance with the plain facts of reality.

In Matthew 12:37 Jesus said "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned."

Words are important. Words mean something. They express a person’s thoughts and views. And “if you want to dance, then you’ve got to be willing to pay the band” so to speak, you've got to be willing to accept counter comments to ones you carelessly make that obviously collide with verifiable facts.

Sincerity and purity of motive are indeed important, yes, I grant that - but not nearly as important, in the final analysis, as factual ACCURACY.

Who denies that Adolph Hitler was absolutely sincere? I’ve read books on Osama Bin Laden and I sense that he is truly genuine in his motives to destroy infidels who oppose Islamic teaching. Saddam Hussein was sincere in his butchery of many thousands of people. And who can doubt that HWA and some of the more Nazi-like ministers were completely sincere in many of their motives, though ultimately and totally WRONG?

SINCERETY, as genuine and as heart-felt as it may be, doesn’t make one RIGHT. A toddler may sincerely want to walk into the path of an oncoming truck, but sincerity can often result in false and sometimes tragic consequences.

Larry, you and anyone else here who frequents this blogsite knows that I am more than willing to “consider opposing views.” And I truly do listen to what others may have to say, because this is how I learn and improve my own views. I will often read over numerous times someone’s comment because I want to truly understand where this person may be coming from before I respond.

But I also am equally as willing to unashamedly (and hopefully humbly) confront patent nonsense when I hear it - and though I, like you, immediately sensed Anonymous 2:50’s words to be sincerely spoken, that still doesn’t make them CORRECTLY or ACCURATELY spoken.

Larry also wrote:
“Of one thing there can be no doubt: this world desperately needs righteous leadership. It is overwhelmed with corruption at the highest levels. No one here should resent any desire for a benevolent world-ruling kingdom controlled by those who believe in mercy, truth, and justice, and are incorruptible.”

And who would those leaders be, Larry – the ministers who ran their congregations like the SS? Or maybe people like yourself who repeatedly CLAIM great academic qualifications (in your case, that you’re a scientist with a doctorate from a world class university), and yet who deceptively refuses to reveal the specifics about such qualifications? Or perhaps the world’s many problems will be solved by the fundamentalists who comment here on Ambassador Watch, who are so patently uneducated and inarticulate in their “preach and run” style of dialog.

Larry, you need to get real. You talk about assertions – well, I can make an assertion here, and unlike you, I can actually provide facts, evidence and rationale that actually backs it up: and that is the assertion that your religion is “corrupt at the highest levels” in terms of it’s many absurd and indemonstrable claims. I can demonstrate this at length to anyone with a open, objective mind who values factual truth rather than subjective or traditional dogma.

Many thinkers and writers considerably more educated and articulate than me have done so in the past, and will continue to do so in the future, so long as the unshackled mind of man has the freedom to point out the obvious.

PG wrote: "Ignorance is bliss in Armstrongism...

2009-09-26T04:42:30.601+12:00

PG wrote:
"Ignorance is bliss in Armstrongism."

Another dead-center bull’s-eye! I can see the arrow still quivering!

Oh, absolutely, PG - and if the many irrational, inarticulate and illogical comments made here on this site by the fundamentalist camp are any indication, then ignorance has become not only a lifestyle, but a cherished badge of honor to be worn and displayed with great pride.

For example, I’ve actually heard Church members proudly BOAST of their ignorance, that they don’t waste time absorbing “Satan’s false knowledge,” etc.

As I mentioned last week in a response to Dr. Larry, the best index of a person’s mind is the manner in which they verbally express themselves, especially in writing – because writing allows one to articulate one’s thoughts more slowly and carefully than does spontaneous speaking. That’s why I prefer debates taking place in writing over spontaneous ones in front of a live audience.

But if the supernatural fundamentalist’s comments here are any indication whatsoever, then there’s not a whole lot of carefully reasoning thought or legitimate knowledge in their minds at all. It’s mostly Stone Age truth claims about reality expressed with great outward bravado, yet having no real substance whatsoever.

And yet, they never seem to tire of making bold and daring ASSERTIONS by the score, do they? Of course, they NEVER are able to back up or clearly explain such assertions with any kind of precision, but they sure can PREACH pretty well to those willing to just uncritically accept anything they hear.

Barb, yes, that is a fairly interesting photo. I h...

2009-09-26T04:38:49.357+12:00

Barb, yes, that is a fairly interesting photo. I had not thought of it that way.

But, it is good to know that YOUR limbic system is functioning well.

larry said... Of one thing there can be no doubt:...

2009-09-26T04:21:12.808+12:00

larry said...

Of one thing there can be no doubt: this world desperately needs righteous leadership. It is overwhelmed with corruption at the highest levels. No one here should resent any desire for a benevolent world-ruling kingdom controlled by those who believe in mercy, truth, and justice, and are incorruptible.

Since that's only wishful thinking and is never going to happen, what is the next best thing?

I can't honestly see immortal WCG/GCI members being kings and priests and reigning with Jesus. In fact, that thought seems really frightening.

It's right up there with the 144,000 of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

People who wait for Jesus to come back and fix everything will still be waiting when there's nothing left to fix.

"I believe Vince Panella was known as Tulleo ...

2009-09-26T04:11:47.041+12:00

"I believe Vince Panella was known as Tulleo Panella in Phoenix"

Yep, that's him.

Vince/Tuleo wasn't all bad. He was a GREAT speaker - you could tell he put a lot of preparation into his sermons. They were inspiring. He was also very sincere. But man, was he tough.

Late in his New Jersey tenure, he was called into Pasadena and reprimanded by Tkach Sr. for being too tough on the brethren. Go figure. Panella took it to heart, came back and told the whole congregation about it and repented.

Shortly after that, he was transferred to Akron Ohio. A few years after that some Akron brethren we met at the feast told us what a wonderful person he was. He died of pancreatic cancer while pastoring the Akron church.

The sad part of Panella's legacy was the junior ministers and deacons who tried to emulate his "tough guy" approach. Formerly nice, gentle guys like Jim Stokes and Ross Flynn were suddenly trying to act like little Hitlers. Very sad.

The Skeptic

Byker Bob asks: “Is God's truth and power so w...

2009-09-26T04:09:19.168+12:00

Byker Bob asks:
“Is God's truth and power so weak and impotent that there would be a need for disingenuous "support"?”

Good question, Bob. And the answer is clearly “YES!” Because that’s what ALL Christianity ultimately is forced to depend upon. Just do some serious research into Christian apologetics. And I’m talking REAL research, not just skimming through the laughable works of Josh McDowell or Lee Strobel.

Bob also writes:
“If God had anything to do with this totally FUBAR organization, what happened with 1975??? And why has the alleged only true mouthpiece organization for the end time message been so divided, confused, and become all but unnoticeable?

Bob, do you mean divided and confused like much of fundamentalist/Evangelical Christianity is, and always has been? The supernatural ideology you’ve tried to promote here on this blogsite is just as much in a state of illogical circular reasoning and tohu and bohu as one finds in any of the WCG spin-offs. So, really, I don’t see what your point is.

And Bob, the old WCG is not the only group that has set false prophetic dates – many other fundamentalists organizations, many times, have as well. Have you ever read anything about the LONG history of failed prophetic predictions? You might try starting with a book called “End-Time Delusions” by Steve Wohlberg. I don’t agree with where Wohlberg ends up, but his book might be a good way to remedy the blatant ignorance your comments reveal in this area.

Bob further wrote:
“To those whom WCG totally disillusioned about God, and who have fallen into the heartbreaking abyss of non-belief, I'd suggest going to your library or bookstore and getting some good logic and encouragement from the works of Dinesh DeSouza.”

Bob, someone clearly as inarticulate and as guilty of constant circular reasoning as you are in your unfounded assertions in defense of supernatural ideology is HARDLY in a position to offer advice about going to the library or bookstore for some good logic. You would be wise to follow such advice yourself FIRST, and then, after you actually demonstrate some sound logic in your comments, perhaps you might have a little more credibility with which to persuade readers.

And by the way, Dinesh D'Souza is a Catholic, not a fundamentalist, and someone whom I happen to share many views with. And I must say that I detect none of his logic, nor his clarity of thought and expression, in any of your comments attempting to defend your brand of fundamentalism.

Larry Reasons, "No one here should resent an...

2009-09-26T04:00:22.618+12:00

Larry Reasons,

"No one here should resent any desire for a benevolent world-ruling kingdom controlled by those who believe in mercy, truth, and justice, and are incorruptible."

Wowee, a kingdom ruled by
the likes of Herb, Ted, Gerald. Stan...

Where do I sign up?

ConnedNoMore

PG said... Anon self-righteously writes: "...

2009-09-26T01:02:14.541+12:00

PG said...
Anon self-righteously writes:

""unless this author can give an example of a minister barging into someone's home in the middle of the night to inspect someone's kitchen or tax returns, then she immediately loses credibility, including with anything else she reports."

You have not read the book yet so how can you sit there making such absurd statements? Plus, the fact of the matter is you are NOT interested in knowing if what she reports is true or not. Even if she had documented details of everything that is in her book reviews, you still will not care. How do I know? I know because for decades countless documented proofs of the degenerate immoral lives of HWA, GTA, Meredith, Flurry, Pack, Weinland, etc. have been made public. Yet you chose to ignore these facts and live in your rose colored Herbalist world.

Your comments are disgusting and are slap in the face of those who HAVE had pasturd's invade their homes examining things in their kitchens, showing up at their work places to examine records,, who have been told that they should not be living in homes nicer than the pasturd, etc. etc. etc. I have seen it happen in Pasadena, I saw it happen in Dayton, Cincinnati and Indianapolis. But, you are not interested in knowing the truth. Ignorance is bliss in Armstrongism."

Now here is another example of someone losing credibility REAL fast. I HAVE read all this about all of these men and largely believe it to be true...YOU have erroneously declared otherwise,,,so there goes your credibility.

Honestly, can ANYONE give a real life example, with names, dates, places...where a minister barged into someone's home in the middle of the night and examined their kitchen or tax return. That is my one and only point. If this author makes such a statement, but cannot give an example...then how can she be credible???

PG....you do not know what you are talking about in regards to what I believe or don't believe. I am not in any of the COG orgs...nor want to be. Yet you say, "live in your rose colored Herbalist world." I do believe that HWA and GTA were sexual predators, not to mention ego maniacs. So on what did you base this above comment? Hysteria on either side is not productive. Just because I don't buy into the hysteria on EITHER side?

If someone can give an example of the above...then that is fine with me....I just posed the question...can she or anyone else give an example of this happening? Not just say it did and not be able to back it up with evidence. I am a pragmatic, fact driven person....

"Why, thank you Mel. My voice of civility is ...

2009-09-26T00:19:12.351+12:00

"Why, thank you Mel. My voice of civility is much needed because Rudeness Runs Rampant here. But, then you already knew that."

These are all symptoms Larry of unresolved or perhaps unresolvable grief, anger and dissapointment with something all invested heavily in.

The more one is invested in something, the more difficult it is to let go. Attachement, grasping and holding on to this unresolved "stuff" is what keeps AW alive.

Is it good? Is it right? Is it helpful. Depends on how it helps in the process of accepting the way things turned out.

Eckhart Tolle notes: "You can't argue with what is...well you can...but then you will suffer."

We, I, whoever are all endeavoring to live with what is and the individual consequences and prices paid for years of loyal belief, behaviours, actions and financial support. It was for "nothing" though I believe philosophically that "Nothing is for nothing." That was my last sermon title ever given. I hoping I was right.

If we all got together at a picnic for an entire weekend, we'd probably all become best of friends, laughing, crying and regaling each other with stories that would draw us into a better understanding of the people behind these names annonymous or real and the whole nature of AW would change.

We're all just folks having shared a common path for a time that was in fact a minefield.

At the end of my life I stil have the feeling my last thoughts might be "what the hell was that all about?" I"m hoping I wrote the script before i showed up, get a time to rest and then get to write another one.

If I am just a conscious hairless ape that thinks too much and is too sensitive, well so be it.....

The Bear wrote: "I don't think she looks ...

2009-09-25T23:33:26.789+12:00

The Bear wrote: "I don't think she looks like Mrs. Powers from the AC kitchen staff."

I agree with this. I worked in the AC kitchen in Big Sandy during the 1960s and Mrs. Powers' daughter would frequently be there with her mom. That young girl had completely different facial features. Even given that many, many years have passed, and people change as they mature, I think this may be a completely different family.
AnnMarie95

Isn't this pretty phallic? http://www.cog-ff.c...

2009-09-25T18:54:04.257+12:00

Isn't this pretty phallic?
http://www.cog-ff.com/assets/college-photos/DSCF0017.jpg

The church always criticized others for this.

Why, thank you Mel. My voice of civility is much n...

2009-09-25T16:59:18.626+12:00

Why, thank you Mel. My voice of civility is much needed because Rudeness Runs Rampant here. But, then you already knew that.

Since MY frontal lobes are highly developed, I can let that last statement slide.

Larry, I'm just thankin' Jesus for you bei...

2009-09-25T15:16:24.284+12:00

Larry, I'm just thankin' Jesus for you being here to set us all straight!

You win a free "CULT APOLOGIST" T-shirt!

But wait, there's more!

You also win a free spiral slicer to slice into your frontal lobe, just in case you want to make the "changes" permanent!

Anon 02:50 wrote a heartfelt and sincere comment s...

2009-09-25T14:38:41.296+12:00

Anon 02:50 wrote a heartfelt and sincere comment suggesting that there is a different point of view than the one some of the people here hold....and some folks just couldn't resist trying to rip him/her apart. Is that really necessary?

Don't you understand that some of the people who disagree are just as right as you are? And, perhaps their motives may be far more pure than yours? Some of you look at everyone in Church as completely deceived beyond hope. I understand this.

But, just because you see things this way, doesn't make them true. In "deference to Leonardo", I am going to actually make an "assertion" (this time); as Anon 02:50 tried to point out, your perceptions can be misleading. It is wise not to be too sure of one's self. Consider opposing views.

Of one thing there can be no doubt: this world desperately needs righteous leadership. It is overwhelmed with corruption at the highest levels. No one here should resent any desire for a benevolent world-ruling kingdom controlled by those who believe in mercy, truth, and justice, and are incorruptible.

"The parent often finds it and uses it to enh...

2009-09-25T13:59:05.952+12:00

"The parent often finds it and uses it to enhance their already runaway insecurities and ignorance."

Yes, THIS. In spades. My life as a child of the church was far from normal. The rules of the church went a long ways towards exacerbating an already-bad situation into something that was barely tolerable. There's no way I can or will deny that there was pre-existing dysfunction in my family.

Armstrongism just raised that pre-existing dysfunction, from annoying, to pure hell.

"I once presented a summary of income and exp...

2009-09-25T13:48:18.831+12:00

"I once presented a summary of income and expenses for an exemption from my first third tithe year."

Yes, my family had to do this too, the times that we were too poor to pay third tithe.

My mother kept the house cleaner than most ministers' wives kept theirs --- so we never got the white glove test. But plenty of opening cupboard/closet doors, looking in the medicine chest, and seeing what was what!

And look where the WCG/GCI is going now. This Ted ...

2009-09-25T13:37:52.361+12:00

And look where the WCG/GCI is going now. This Ted Johnson and his wacky blog now has this --
Ted Johnston (WCG official) "Announcing the Trinitarian Worship blog" -- and that is how wacky and way-off-course this "reformed" outfit has gone. I'm pretty sure that if HWA were somehow watching, he would be shocked at the WCG/GCI and the direction. Didn't HWA wanted the successors to continue with preaching the coming kingdom of God?

Dave Pack.............

2009-09-25T12:14:29.322+12:00

Dave Pack.............

Lake of Fire Church of God wrote: Bamboo Bends me...

2009-09-25T10:36:19.261+12:00

Lake of Fire Church of God wrote:

Bamboo Bends mentions Keith Thomas. Keith Thomas appears to have been one of the good guys. My father and Keith Thomas became good friends. Here again, Keith Thomas, like Vince Panella, were older ministers who had prior professions before becoming a WCG minister later in life.

I believe Vince Panella was known as Tulleo Panella in Phoenix. I think his first name was Vincent. I remember visiting his home which was a subdivision built in a date orchard (palms still intact).

He was in Spokesman Club with my father, Keith Thomas, Elis LaRavia, and others. Dad absolutely loved that Spokesman club! That was due in large part to Keith Thomas, God rest his soul.

Somewhere my mom has a photograph of my father and "Tulleo" at a Church "Italian Night" social that was held in the hall belonging to the Phoenix Women's Club, about a block from Central Avenue and Thomas Road.

Dad and the other club men, were dressed in red Italian vests and poured Chianti and served really good spaghetti. The picture shows my dad and Panella with their arms around each other shoulders and each had a bottle of Chianti in the other extended arm. Its a priceless photo. Dad looked the happiest I ever saw him that night.

When Adolf Eichmann was asked why he was so indust...

2009-09-25T10:03:55.567+12:00

When Adolf Eichmann was asked why he was so industrious in killing Jews, he said that doing this was his job and how he got promoted. That fact that it involved real people with real lives did not seem to register on him. It was about him and not about them.

I don't think she looks like Mrs. Powers from the AC kitchen staff.

The Bear

"we had Vince Panella as our minister. He was...

2009-09-25T08:50:41.329+12:00

"we had Vince Panella as our minister. He was an older minister with real life work experience becoming a WCG minister later in life. My recollection of him was that he was very practical."

Richard, I'm glad you had a positive experience with Mr. Panella. I'd be curious to know what years he was there.

Vince Panella was our pastor in New Jersey from approximately 1979-1986 and he was an absolute tyrant. Perhaps it was part of the "back on track" movement, or perhaps it was his bitterness from losing his first wife to cancer. He was disfellowshipping and suspending people left and right, for makeup, for smoking, for bad attitudes, you name it. We had a farmer in the congregation who always wore a clean flannel shirt to church: Mr. Panella told him he was suspended until he bought a suit to wear to church. He threw me out of Spokesman's club because I missed one meeting to take the CPA exam. I just tried to stay out of his path so I wouldn't end up in the Lake of Fire. Many of us did. We attended Sabbath Services in fear.

The Skeptic