Comments on Ambassador Watch: Who Speaks for the COGs?

Greetings Friends around the World!Its the rebelli...

2007-03-21T18:44:00.000+12:00

Greetings Friends around the World!

Its the rebellious contentious ways of the GREAAAT Adversary, Satan the devil at work! Satan's way is the way of GET, ME ME ME ALWAYS ME.

Who indeed speaks for the Church of God? I do! As God's End-Time Elijah-to-Come Apostle, I speak for the Church....if only I could stop spinning in my grave....that young man Rod was always after my job...and that Flurry fellow...never heard of him....did he even go to Ambassador College...and Dear Lord, David Hulme...all puffed up from those TV programs I allowed him to do......

HWA was dyslexic. He loved animals, and thought h...

2007-03-20T19:22:00.000+12:00

HWA was dyslexic. He loved animals, and thought he was setting up an organization based on the love and care of canines. He incorporated as a non-profit church, and intended it to be named the Radio Church of Dog. Unfortunately, his dyslexia kicked in, and the rest, as they say, is history.

T

"Who Speaks for the COGs?"Unfortunately, it is not...

2007-03-20T13:49:00.000+12:00

"Who Speaks for the COGs?"
Unfortunately, it is not GOD.

Camfinch,Regarding the e-epistles from us to Dr. B...

2007-03-20T13:22:00.000+12:00

Camfinch,

Regarding the e-epistles from us to Dr. Bob, your recollection is correct. You had explained to me what was happening, copied me in on your email, and I felt it was important enough that I contributed to your efforts.

Neither you nor I have been the types of people to totally trash the RCG/WCG, Armstrongism, or Ambassador College. Defective products sometimes work, and sometimes leave one wishing that they did.

I don't even blame the ACOGgers who take me to task for some of my "mild and well-reasoned" posts. Sometimes I wish they'd break free from their Stockholm Syndrome, but alas, I once suffered from it myself, and had no clue that such a thing even existed. The human mind is like a parachute in that it only works when it's open. It is a shame that Jer. 17:9 is used by the ACOGs not so much as a psychological observation that humans are generally ruled by their appetites and emotions, but as a mind-closing tool to enforce cultic teaching.

BB

Camfinch,The time of the end is near. You said Dr....

2007-03-20T12:29:00.000+12:00

Camfinch,
The time of the end is near. You said Dr. Thiel gave you a non-scathing e-mail reply! Wow, You must rate. I had some very nicely worded e-mails to him and had nothing but venom in return. You are fortunate .
rod 2

As regards "attacking" the late HWA vs. Bob Thiel'...

2007-03-20T07:14:00.000+12:00

As regards "attacking" the late HWA vs. Bob Thiel's smear of Ernest Martin before Dr. Martin was in the grave, let me offer my own observation.

When Dr. Martin died, Bob Thiel duly made note on his website, and then, in typical Thiel-ian fashion, gave his own negative remarks about Martin, which to the objective reader sounded smug and dismissive. Thiel knew little or nothing about Ernest Martin, and probably had little or no contact with him. But he could give a bit of a smear to the deceased simply because Martin had departed from the fold of orthodox Armstrongism. And what was orthodox Armstrongism? Whatever Herbert Armstrong concluded was the truth. Dr. Martin had had some doctrinal disagreements with HWA for years, but kept them private, and submitted his arguments, based upon a level of scholarly research that almost no one else in the WCG ever attained (with the possible exception of Dr. Charles Dorothy). He submitted his paper "proving" a Sunday Pentecost a number of times beginning in the early 1960's. He didn't make his disagreements known for many years. He was a true gentleman in his comportment, and gave respect to everyone that he encountered, as best that I can tell. This is definitely not true of many of the top people in Pasadena at the time, and most certainly not true of HWA. When the crisis of 1973-74 was beginning to erupt, Dr. Martin took a "sabbatical" from his work at AC, and soon was publishing his own interpretations of doctrine, some of which were in dispute with orthodox Armstrongism, notably the counting of Pentecost, and tithing. He became persona non grata in the church, although I do believe that quite a number of church members, including ministers, privately respected the man.

As soon as Dr. Martin was "out of the church", HWA began smearing him from the preacher's lecturn. I heard him raging against Martin on more than one occasion, using a strong tone of put-down. HWA could not actually disprove any of Martin's arguments, but he simply condemned Martin via ad hominem attacks. At the time, I was a dedicated Armstrongist, and went along with Armstrong's negative attacks based upon nothing but his own feeling of needing to defend his own "authority". But even at the time, I was inwardly troubled by this uncharitable attitude conveyed by the man I regarded as "God's apostle".

And so when I read Bob Thiel's smarmy put-down of Dr. Martin when the corpse was barely cold, I was angry, and sent him an email to give him mild chastisement. My email was respectful in tone, as all my emails (not that many, really) over the years have been to him when I felt a need to correct errors of detail. But I indicated my dismay at his tone, and informed him of HWA's own ugly negativity that he displayed publicly about Ernest Martin. I believe that I might have copied this email to byker bob, whom I have known for about 35 years. BB sent his own email to Thiel, and he copied me on that. Thiel's response to me was rather more polite than his unncessary rude missive to byker bob.

Look: as byker bob and others have pointed out, there IS a distinct difference between disparaging a dead person who seems to have been a genuinely good person, disparaging him simply because he didn't just accept everything in Armstrongite doctrine without "proving all things". He honestly went about serious research, and honestly tried to get Armstrong and others to at least give some reasonable evaluation of that research, which it seems they did not. There is no need to smear such a man, living or dead. One can honestly disagree with him without using a smearing tone.

On the other hand, the life of HWA seems clearly filled with all manner of dishonesty and megalomania. He claimed authority directly from God; such a claim is so grandiose that by making it he set himself up to be evaluated in all areas of his life, not only in his theology, but in the way he lived his life. He claimed to set an example for the church members, and therefore that example needs to be scrutinized. He established a hierarchical form of church government that commanded the blind allegiance of all church members, and in doing so, essentially claimed the lives of the membership for himself. This is monstrous. What writers on this forum say about HWA is not a disrespect to the dead, because HWA did not lead a life that can command much respect. The life he led left behind a massive heap of litter from which all of us that were in the old regime (and those who are in groups that continue the regime) must sift through. You can't call sewerage anything else but what it is.

Byker Bob's postings on this forum are always in good taste, well-thought-out, and respectful. I think I must concur with Steve: the kitchen may be getting a little hot, stemming from the revelations that are manifest in this forum, and a hot kitchen cooks up hot, angry rhetoric from those trapped in that kitchen.

Anonymous said... "BB, and then you continue to at...

2007-03-20T00:51:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said...
"BB, and then you continue to attack a defenseless dead man. BB, please, leave him alone."

MY COMMENT: The kitchen's getting a little hot, eh? I wonder if it would be considered attacking dead men mentioned in the Scriptures, namely, Saul, Solomon, Judas, Simon Magus, etc. Herbie's in "good" worm-eating company.

Steve K

"......Finally, HWA may be dead, or he may have si...

2007-03-20T00:38:00.000+12:00

"......Finally, HWA may be dead, or he may have simply shed his wetsuit. But he is hardly defenseless. You Armstrongites have elevated him to Godhood, and practically have him sitting at the right hand of Jesus Christ!"

BB

MY COMMENT: BB, you certainly seem to hit the nail right on the head. AMEN to everything in that post!

Steve K

Anonymous 2:58, I'm about finished with you ostri...

2007-03-19T18:13:00.000+12:00

Anonymous 2:58, I'm about finished with you ostriches (or is it mushrooms?).

Knowing the truth about HWA is only half of the process, anyway. The other half involves disproving all of the false doctrines. Isn't it nice that ACOG recovery only involves a two step program? People with other disorders have to work a twelve step program!

BB

Fair point, Dennis, about the "unshackled" part. T...

2007-03-19T15:12:00.000+12:00

Fair point, Dennis, about the "unshackled" part. The comment was to be taken in the context of "For the Christian believer...."

It might have been more accurate to say, "From the standpoint of scripture," or something like that.

It was somewhat rhetorical, in other words.

As for the debate that arose regarding the pot-shots at dead people, it appears there is more irony in Mr. Theil's doing so while being dismissive of his former brethren, than there is the other way around. I am not persuaded, in other words, that Dr. Martin exhibited the hypocrisy found in other icons of COGs past.

"If my memory serves me correctly, I can't recall ...

2007-03-19T14:58:00.000+12:00

"If my memory serves me correctly, I can't recall having attacked any of the deceased ACOG ministers aside from HWA."

BB, and then you continue to attack a defenseless dead man. BB, please, leave him alone.

If my memory serves me correctly, I can't recall h...

2007-03-19T12:36:00.000+12:00

If my memory serves me correctly, I can't recall having attacked any of the deceased ACOG ministers aside from HWA. In fact, as that particular generation has died off, I've either refrained from comment, or found at least one good memory of that person to share. One exception is that I have commented regarding the overall shoddiness of Dr. Herman Hoeh's research, both before and after his passing. I've even gotten in trouble on these sites for itemizing and complimenting some of GTA's abilities and strengths!

Herbert W. Armstrong's philosophy does get confronted and attacked because of all of the damage which it has done. Really, all we need to know about the man is Deut. 18:22. However, there are additional activities of his, which have also come under attack, such as watching Westerns on the Sabbath, drinking coffee or orange juice on the Day of Atonement, racism against blacks and other "gentiles", eating unclean meats at hoity toity banquets to avoid offending dignitaries, excessive drinking so that his son and grandson had to carry him to bed, obtaining medical care when the brethren were forbidden to do the same, getting a prosthesis for his penis so that he could have a meaningful marriage to Ramona, turning a blind eye on GTA and allowing very damaging activities to continue unchecked for so many years, and of course the really big allegation that none of you Armstrongites seem to want to believe. Taken as a group, these well documented activities indicate a pattern of hypocrisy, and mke a strong case for the theory that HWA himself did not even believe his own teachings.

I was not a follower of Dr. Ernest Martin. However, he was a much more honest and thorough scholar than were those who lifted isolated historical or biblical items from their proper context to "prove" Armstrongism. As such, one could make the case that Martin was part of the solution, rather than part of the problem. I realize that to most Armstrongites, alleged Apostleship resolves just about any conflict or problem with their faith. However, there are also those whose loyalty is devoted to truth, and good ethics in finding and proving those truths, as opposed to loyalty to a particular man.

Finally, HWA may be dead, or he may have simply shed his wetsuit. But he is hardly defenseless. You Armstrongites have elevated him to Godhood, and practically have him sitting at the right hand of Jesus Christ!

BB

To anonymous...."Thank you Byker Bob for this post...

2007-03-19T12:06:00.000+12:00

To anonymous...."Thank you Byker Bob for this post, us "Armstrongists" will remember this when you put down a defenseless deceased person. Please attack HWA again."
...................................

Ernest Martin had not even assumed room temperature when the attacks started.
With the death of Herbie, the celebrations were on immediately! GTA was in a upbeat mood, Ramona was a happy camper and of course Joe Tkach was overjoyed at inheriting the money!

SO WHEN YOUR MASTER SPANKIE DIES OFF VERY SOON, most of us shall allow the family to grieve for a time, then criticize. And most of us shall be more gracious and honest than you have been, here on the AW blog!

Thanks Anon..I'm missing my own lid too..hehe

2007-03-19T11:03:00.000+12:00

Thanks Anon..I'm missing my own lid too..hehe

Dennis, you said:"sorry for being so blunt and wor...

2007-03-19T10:32:00.000+12:00

Dennis, you said:
"sorry for being so blunt and wordy" Don't be!

Your thoughts clearly expressed the disconnect between what we heard for years friom the pulpit and the reality we experienced in our daily lives.

All of the apologists and ACOG ministers out there will simply state that it is "God's will" to intervene when HE chooses.
Simple as that.
Move on.
As a lay member, if you question any further you will be bundled and burned with the rest of the tares.

I cannot speak for others Dennis but the bluntness with which you speak, both here and more clearly in your online articles, has blown the lid off of Pandora's box for me.

Once seen, the ridiculousness of the ACOGs cannot be "unseen"

We former Armstrongists aren't "taking potshots" a...

2007-03-19T10:02:00.000+12:00

We former Armstrongists aren't "taking potshots" at a defenseless deceased person, we're opposing a defenseless deceased person's pernicious doctrines and practices that have harmed and continue to harm many.

Oh, and Dennis, maybe you never felt like God was answering your prayers to open your eyes to the truth and give you better understanding . . . but you're not an Armstrongist any more, so it seems you might have at least a partially-answered prayer there, right?

Anonymous said... Bob Thiel will only post that wh...

2007-03-19T09:23:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said...
Bob Thiel will only post that which Meredith and his clones tell him to post. That is a fact.

No, Sir, your comment is a lie.
...................................

and Byker Bob, what self-righteous vomit you wrote about attacking a dead, defenseless person.

"A few years ago, Dr. Ernest Martin passed away. B...

2007-03-19T09:04:00.000+12:00

"A few years ago, Dr. Ernest Martin passed away. Bob Thiel made some negative comments regarding Doc Martin's influences on the ACOGs. I felt that he was taking potshots at a defenseless deceased person........"

Thank you Byker Bob for this post, us "Armstrongists" will remember this when you put down a defenseless deceased person. Please attack HWA again.

'I'm pretty sure had he been one of the original d...

2007-03-19T08:59:00.000+12:00

'I'm pretty sure had he been one of the original disciples and had to report on the death of Jesus or the betrayal of Jesus by Judas or the denial of Jesus by Peter, it would have ended up in "News of those Once Affiliated with the Fishermen's and Carpenter's Guild."'

Thank you Dennis, that was a hoot.

Bob Thiel will only post that which Meredith and h...

2007-03-19T08:57:00.000+12:00

Bob Thiel will only post that which Meredith and his clones tell him to post. That is a fact.

Byker Bob said... A few years ago, Dr. Ernest Mart...

2007-03-19T08:28:00.000+12:00

Byker Bob said... A few years ago, Dr. Ernest Martin passed away. Bob Thiel made some negative comments regarding Doc Martin's influences on the ACOGs. I felt that he was taking potshots at a defenseless deceased person, GREAT LORD ON HIGH! LOOK AT YOURSELVES IN A MIRROR, WHAT ON EARTH DO YOU PEOPLE THINK YOU HAVE BEEN DOING FOR THE PAST UMPTEEN YEARS ???

Dennis said... Let's hear your version Steve... MY...

2007-03-19T05:56:00.000+12:00

Dennis said...
Let's hear your version Steve...

MY COMMENT: My VERSION? I don't have a version. I guess your VERSION is as good as anyone else's.

Steve K

"For the Christian believer, the shackles are off,...

2007-03-19T05:40:00.000+12:00

"For the Christian believer, the shackles are off, and all access is granted, directly and unfettered."

Ok, here goes, this sets me up for the "see, you never were converted," but I have to axe.

When one has direct and unfettered access, what does that mean? How does it manifest itself? I can only speak for me, but when I prayed in the past, I sensed no contact. I received no real answers or direction that I could not trace to simply making my own decisions about matters I thought I had to pray about.

I remember countless prayer times in college asking God to "open my mind," "use me for the work," "allow me to pastor," "send me where I can be the most encouraging," "Show me your truth." I remember the very first person I ever anointed as a brand new local elder who could not lay hands on people, was my brother. I got it in my head that maybe someone needed to stick their faith out a bit and anoint the boy. He was blind, deaf and can't talk...still is but I remember, after the prayer, looking at him waiting for his first, "thanks Bro, it's about time," however....

When times were difficult, there was no comfort given that was obvious aside from the natural comfort one receives with the passage of time. The help I got out of difficulties seemed to in no way be connected to prayers about the difficulties.

When people were dying, and not of old age, but of disease in youth or as a result of not being protected by one of the infamous Angels "that do watch over them," The prayer of faith saved none that I can recall. I prayed very sincerely for them and I assume was in contact with God as directed. They either got well or died as everyone does in those circumstances with no apparent intervention. There was no meaningful contact or access to God that saved anyone that I can remember. Shit just happened and it was more a case of it rains on the just and the unjust than special contact or access having some real benefit.

There are black and white promises in the Bible that are not true when applied in real life. (From "and see if I don't open the windows of heaven to you.." to "whatever you ask in my name, I will give it you," and "...and the prayer of faith shall save the sick." There are many apologetics for why that is so but why do we always have to apologize for that which seems straighforward and apparently is not. Like many, I gave tens of thousands of bucks to the cause as the book seemed to say, only to be pushed out of the window of heaven that was opening to me. Glad I did actually, but that doesn't lessen the wondering if this is the answer to all those sincere prayers that never had this as the final goal in mind.

So what does "all access is granted, directly and unfettered"
really mean? My personal experience is that it is a very one way street. If I doubt it, I'm labeled as a reprobate. If I notice after doing what is instructed that:

God really doesn't answer prayers in any direct or meaningful way that I can see.

The windows of heaven don't open for tithing or plain giving such that I can't contain it all...

The sick don't get well when the prayer of faith is offered over and over..

Begging God seems to fall on deaf ears too

And no matter what, God gets off the hook for not doing what he said in the Book because , "my ways or not your ways," or "there is a way that seems right for a man, but the way thereof ends in death," not to mention, "the wisdom of man is foolishness with God." The poor human with unfettered and direct access is left in the dark...again.

Skeptical I know..this is what the whole experience from a pastors point of view has left me after tens of thousands of prayers, for thousands of people, with hundreds of illnesses, scores of financial problems due to their faith, and not a few dead kids that never got a chance to live and died badly alone on the bottom of a river, and whose Angels must have been on vacation when they needed them to remove the tractor or shut off the bush hog and stitch like crazy....

What is the benefit of this direct and unfettered access and how does it manifest itself in real time and in the lives of really sincere believers?

I'm pretty sure the opening prayer the day of the Milwaukee killings in LCG went something like this..

"Gracious heavenly father, thank you so very much for all you give us. For your work and for calling us out of this world. We thank you for bringing us all here in peace and safety and pray you will encourage us and open our minds to your truth. We pray that your spirit will lead us today and bless the minister as he speaks to us.....bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang......"

Is the rain on the just and the unjust the only answer to this unfettered and direct contact we have?

PS. Sorry for being blunt and wordy. If we apply "by their fruits ye shall know them," to having direct and unfettered access to God and Jesus now, I see what I see. (Shades of Job) This is a core issue with me and my personal experience as both a pastor and a very very sincere young man that will probably never quite figure out what went wrong that the reward for that is this...

However, perhaps I could not see this, if I had not been that either. amen...

They are in rented Odd Fellows Halls and Masonic L...

2007-03-19T05:22:00.000+12:00

They are in rented Odd Fellows Halls and Masonic Lodges the world over.

The shackles are off, and isn't it wonderful? No m...

2007-03-19T04:51:00.000+12:00

The shackles are off, and isn't it wonderful? No more wondering where Gods church is, where Gods ministers are, or what in this world is God doing. There is no church, no ministers, just freedom.