Comments on Ambassador Watch: UCG's new brooms

Regarding Gnosticism: The Demiurge is a cypher. ...

2009-06-22T10:35:42.577+12:00

Regarding Gnosticism: The Demiurge is a cypher. The cypher's first name is Lou. Lou Cypher. Get it? Lucifer!

Purps, I'm beginning to seriously wonder about...

2009-06-22T09:53:49.001+12:00

Purps, I'm beginning to seriously wonder about your reading comprehension skills. As I tried to share with you, the blasphemous excerpt is in "Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene" And, you actually quoted that title back to me, but then for some reason or other went looking for the quote in "Misquoting Jesus", another Bart Ehrman book which I've also been reading. In fact, several days ago, when I mentioned reading PPMM, you actually suggested that I also read "Misquoting Jesus".

If new levels of blasphemy turn you on, go get PPMM, and look about half way through the third section of the book, which is devoted to Mary Magdalene. I can't get you the page number just now, because I've already returned that book to the library.

BB

"The larger, and more important question, in ...

2009-06-22T08:47:17.379+12:00

"The larger, and more important question, in my opinion, is why you care how anonymous people on this board label you?"

Corky answered this one already.

"We all know who you were talking about so I don't believe any navel contemplation need take place.

You remind me of an arrogant, condescending little twit of a WCG deacon. That's what you are, isn't it?"

And no, I really don't care, you just didn't have the balls enough to accuse me by name, instead of letting a snide little dig slip in under the radar like that.

Come to think of it, Corky's right, the Gestapo used to do EXACTLY that. How long were you a deacon in the church, Mark?

"My personal opinion is that when anyone preaches anything about an unknown and an unknowable god - it's blasphemy."

Dare I say it? AMEN, Corkster, amen!! ;-)

"Do you label yourself as a Christian?" ...

2009-06-22T08:43:40.251+12:00

"Do you label yourself as a Christian?"

Holy effing hell in a handcart NO. Just NO.

I'm sorry I gave you that mistaken impression Mark. Can we part ways amicably, in that case?

Oh, so we're going around looking for blapheme...

2009-06-22T02:56:41.161+12:00

Oh, so we're going around looking for blaphemers now? What's next, witch hunts?
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"Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" had a very blasphemous excerpt in it regarding Holy Communion
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Your personal opinion.

My personal opinion is that when anyone preaches anything about an unknown and an unknowable god - it's blasphemy.

"OK, as long as I understand you correctly Ma...

2009-06-22T02:00:20.533+12:00

"OK, as long as I understand you correctly Mark: YOU are "the one true Christian", and every other group that may or may not have existed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries (excluding the group you are now in thrall to, of course) is not "true Christianity"."

I never said I was the only true Christian. But gnosticism is heresy and isn't Christian, just as Weinland's view of Jesus is heresy. Do you label yourself as a Christian? If so, then you must abandon gnosticism. (not that I think you will, I just threw that in there for good measure)

The larger, and more important question, in my opinion, is why you care how anonymous people on this board label you?

"Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" had a v...

2009-06-21T10:42:34.649+12:00

"Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" had a very blasphemous excerpt in it regarding Holy Communion, one which I deeply wish was not in my memory banks."

So I reread Misquoting Jesus today, and I can't find any passage in the book that speaks of Peter, Paul, and Mary Magdalene together, in conjunction with a eucharist ritual, Bob. As a matter of fact, the only time a eucharist ritual is mentioned in Misquoting Jesus, is where I have mentioned it above.

I really would be interested in knowing which passage it was you were referring to Bob, even if you do pre-judge Ehrman's character as a human being, simply because his worldview doesn't agree with yours.

Are you perhaps thinking of a passage from Lost Christianities, or another Ehrman book?

It's amazing what happens when one has an inde...

2009-06-21T04:00:33.453+12:00

It's amazing what happens when one has an independent personal relationship with Father God, and Jesus Christ!

It's also amazing what happens when one has a personal relationship with Mary, the mother of God or Saint Christopher. However, what happens may not be as real as one thinks.

"That's actually "Misquoting Jesus&q...

2009-06-21T02:48:02.386+12:00

"That's actually "Misquoting Jesus", Purple Hymnal."

Brain fart, of course it is, and I actually own a copy. D'oh! *smacks forehead*

"Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" had a very blasphemous excerpt in it regarding Holy Communion, one which I deeply wish was not in my memory banks."

Can you provide a page number, or an exact quote? On a brief skim, and from memory, I cannot find anything in my copy of the book that fits this vague description of yours. Also, how are you defining "very blasphemous" here, Bob?

The following passage from the book asserts that the passage referring to "drink" actually refers to a panentheistic spirit within, instead of alcoholic spirits without!

From pp.91:
"Similarly, in 1 Cor. 12:13, Paul points out that everyone in Christ has been "baptized into one body" and they have all "drunk of one Spirit." The word Spirit (PNEUMA) would have been abbreviated in most manuscripts as PMA, which understandably could be—and was—misread by some scribes as the Greek word for "drink" (POMA); and so in these witnesses Paul is said to indicate that all have "drunk of one drink."

Pneuma (or the spirit within us all that engenders gnosis) is reflective of a more panentheistic ideology, than the literalized/ritualized meaning the Constantinian church attributed to later versions of the text, which is what engendered the rituals that the Romans syncretized later.

And this, from pp. 93:
"Another example occurs in Paul's letter to the Romans, where Paul states that "since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God" (Rom. 5:1). Or is that what he said? The word for "we have peace," a statement of fact, sounded exactly like the word "let us have peace," an exhortation.

And so in a large number of manuscripts, including some of our earliest, Paul doesn't rest assured that he and his followers have peace with God, he urges himself and others to seek peace. This is a passage for which textual scholars have difficulty deciding which reading is the correct one."

Isn't there some kind of "peace ritual" practiced in modern mainstream Christan churches? I have seen such a ritual referred to several times, on the Ship of Fools Mystery Worshipper reports website, but I don't know if that is what Ehrman is referring to here, or what the ritual in question even is.

Is this what disturbs you from Ehrman's book, Bob? That what was essentially a throwaway reference to a panentheistic worldview (similar to that espoused by some Quaker groups, and that is compatible with contemplative/meditative teachings), ended up being transformed into a legalistic ritual? Or are you, as I suspect, more disturbed that this is what Ehrman, respected New Testament scholar, is actually suggesting?

So can you give me the page number or the exact passage in question you are referring to from Misquoting Jesus that you consider to be "very blasphemous"? I would appreciate the opportunity to discuss it further, and I'm not entirely sure what you're driving at, here.

"Ehrman is a religious historian, and a respected educator. However, I am not sure that he has the Holy Spirit."

On second thought, forget it, Bob. At least you've given me an incentive to reread the book.

"If you fall into the category of "all a...

2009-06-21T00:45:56.303+12:00

"If you fall into the category of "all atheists" with a gnostic fascination", then I WAS talking about you."

And yet, you see nothing "un-Christian" in your earlier comment?

"(and for al you atheists who want to go all "gnostic" on me, save your breath, your religion was also debunked in the New Testament)."

OK, as long as I understand you correctly Mark: YOU are "the one true Christian", and every other group that may or may not have existed in the 2nd and 3rd centuries (excluding the group you are now in thrall to, of course) is not "true Christianity".

Hmmmmm, now where have I heard that before? It does sound somewhat vaguely familiar.......Just can't put my finger on it......

The "new brooms" are disoriented and are...

2009-06-20T22:21:54.042+12:00

The "new brooms" are disoriented and are sweeping the dirt into the UCG.

Yet another perfectly good thread hijacked by the ...

2009-06-20T15:19:52.762+12:00

Yet another perfectly good thread hijacked by the atheists.

Mark said . . . I wish you well on your journey. -...

2009-06-20T09:33:48.875+12:00

Mark said . . . I wish you well on your journey.
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I wish you well on your journey too, and the sooner you get started, the better.

We all know who you were talking about so I don't believe any navel contemplation need take place.

You remind me of an arrogant, condescending little twit of a WCG deacon. That's what you are, isn't it?

That's actually "Misquoting Jesus", ...

2009-06-20T07:19:49.834+12:00

That's actually "Misquoting Jesus", Purple Hymnal. That book is setting just to the left of me as I type this. And, the open mindedness for which you complimented me is a gift from God, and is responsible for bringing me to my current understandings and beliefs. Two years ago my mind was locked, and shut tight as a drum.

A person must be very discerning when reading Bart Ehrman. Much of what he writes and quotes is helpful, but "Peter, Paul and Mary Magdalene" had a very blasphemous excerpt in it regarding Holy Communion, one which I deeply wish was not in my memory banks.

Ehrman is a religious historian, and a respected educator. However, I am not sure that he has the Holy Spirit. Some of his writings do indicate deep understanding, while others are straight out of the twilight zone.
His books are probably like any other book one might read, in that they are not 100% truth. Reading them becomes an exercise similar to panning for gold. But, I trust God's Spirit to lead me to the truth, only this time without the "help" of exploitative, authoritarian gurus. It's amazing what happens when one has an independent personal relationship with Father God, and Jesus Christ!

BB

"If you were NOT referring to me, I would dea...

2009-06-20T01:24:45.286+12:00

"If you were NOT referring to me, I would dearly like to know who you were referring to, with that comment. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to correspond with someone else on the ex-member Internet who has a similar worldview to my own."

I think your worldview is that it is all about you. But that's neither here nor there. If you fall into the category of "all atheists" with a gnostic fascination", then I WAS talking about you. I would hope that you could contemplate your naval enough to know for yourself if you fall into that category.

If you do fall into the above category, then you don't have to jump into every topic of theology and impart us with your new state of enlightenment. We get it, we know you've found your wormhole and can now travel through the space-time continuum with your backpack of wisdom. I wish you well on your journey.

"Try not to take things so personally, k?&quo...

2009-06-19T12:54:16.482+12:00

"Try not to take things so personally, k?"

So, tell me, Mark: Who, exactly, were you referring to with this comment?

"(and for al you atheists who want to go all "gnostic" on me, save your breath, your religion was also debunked in the New Testament)."

If you were NOT referring to me, I would dearly like to know who you were referring to, with that comment. I would greatly appreciate the opportunity to correspond with someone else on the ex-member Internet who has a similar worldview to my own.

"but it is an excellent example of the type o...

2009-06-18T11:54:12.221+12:00

"but it is an excellent example of the type of attitude and closed-mindedness professing Christianity engenders."

Yet another throwback from Armstrongism. Attack "attitude" and name call. That's smart.
Try not to take things so personally, k?

In re: Larry's comment, is that really how Jun...

2009-06-18T03:48:00.770+12:00

In re: Larry's comment, is that really how Junior manages to hang on to the tithe slaves these days?

Small wonder the Wallenites are so entrenched, if that's the case.

"(and for al you atheists who want to go all ...

2009-06-18T03:44:55.469+12:00

"(and for al you atheists who want to go all "gnostic" on me, save your breath, your religion was also debunked in the New Testament)."

Please define exactly what you mean by "your religion" in the passage above, Mark?

I am not now, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be, a member of a Gnostic religious group. And, to my knowledge, since I am the only atheist on the ex-member Internet who has openly discussed gnosticism at length, your little dig is not very subtle at all --- but it is an excellent example of the type of attitude and closed-mindedness professing Christianity engenders.

But then, Christians have been burning books for two thousand years now, with no sign of stopping.....

To Mark: Imagine living in a society without law....

2009-06-17T18:07:40.214+12:00

To Mark:

Imagine living in a society without law. {{{Shudder.}}} "And crown thy good with brotherhood, thy Liberty in Law."

One may either be self-ruled by law, or suppressed by dictators. If Jesus gave anyone the idea that he had removed from mankind the principle of self-rule under law, it was unintentional. Israel's Torah (the "Law") is Life, the Wisdom and DNA of the universe. To remove Torah is to undo Creation and crush the possibility of Life -- meaning eternal life.

When David was the anointed king (messiah), he wrote, "Oh, how love I thy Law (Torah). It is my meditation all the day long." And then there was God's instruction to Joshua: "Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law (Torah) my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go."

Why would a God whose character is completely reliable, change on so important a matter as His Instructions or Torah/Law? Like that of Moses, Joshua's great success was predicated upon adherence to the Torah of Moses, as God had urged. The Law made Joshua's success possible -- not impossible.

One doesn't change a winning game, not even when one is Jesus. Who would follow a Jewish messiah who dared to discard or make moot the Torah? The thought is suicidal. Torah is the life-breath of Israel, and by extension, through Jacob's family, including Jesus, it will become Life for all mankind.

Mark my words, whether in this life or the next you will live to see it happen.

Mark, I think we are both saying the same thing...

2009-06-17T17:16:18.176+12:00

Mark,
I think we are both saying the same thing, although I agree that you probably expressed it better. Paul WAS teaching that the Law was dead, so keeping it was not necessary.

Nevertheless, if a person desired to observe the Sabbath, the Holy Days, circumcise their sons (not their daughters), and tithe, that is not dishonoring Christ's sacrifice.

However, assuming that those actions made one more "righteous" or that they were necessary for Salvation, DOES dishonor (and make of no effect) the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. So does judging others who believe, because of what they do or don't do.

There are over 600 laws in the Old Covenant. If y...

2009-06-17T16:10:33.186+12:00

There are over 600 laws in the Old Covenant. If you or the Jews want to live by the old covenant...go ahead. It's a trap!

COG's love to say the New Covenant is not fully established yet. They want to keep some of the 600 OC laws and some of the NC laws.

It's all nuts and crazy.

The "Holy Days are a picture of God's Plan" cannot be proven from scripture. People who believe that will believe anything....so long as they believe in the PERSON who say it.

Glad to hear you're reading Ehrman, BB; next y...

2009-06-17T12:14:30.148+12:00

Glad to hear you're reading Ehrman, BB; next you need to pick up his "Lost Christianities", and then maybe "The Misquoted Jesus" -- if you dare open your mind that much further.

"Paul was not turning people away, he was sim...

2009-06-17T12:13:49.830+12:00

"Paul was not turning people away, he was simply showing that Law Keeping was optional, and was NOT the way to Salvation. (which it isn't)"

No, you are missing the entire point of the gospel message. Paul wasn't showing that the Law is optional- keep it if you want to or not, it is up to you. The law was meaningful and had its purpose in its time, but it is NO LONGER in effect. Paul is consistent in his teachings that the Law is dead, and keeping it (even optionally) makes Christ's sacrifice of no use.
Since you are still with the WCG, it makes sense that you would take the position that you do. You still try to make peace with the judaisers. That's honorable, but not necessary for this gentile.

"In this statement Paul defines the male Jew,...

2009-06-17T12:08:45.829+12:00

"In this statement Paul defines the male Jew, many years after Jesus' crucifixion."

No, that is not the case. He defines those who are obligated to live according to the law of Moses and those who are under grace. Those who continue in the Law of Moses will be judged by the law (and ALWAYS fall short). Those who walk by faith in Jesus, through grace, will not be judged by the law.

This is the defining moment in the old covenant vs. the new covenant. If Paul reverted back to the law, then he would make Christ's sacrifice of no effect. He did not, and we have salvation by grace through faith. Judaism (the law) does not offer this. This is uniquely Christian. (and for al you atheists who want to go all "gnostic" on me, save your breath, your religion was also debunked in the New Testament).