Comments on Ambassador Watch: How Screwed Up Are You?

"20 years membership and employment" Do...

2009-08-21T07:55:00.606+12:00

"20 years membership and employment"

Do we have another ex-minister amongst us, ConnedNoMore?

Just curious, and no, not asking in order to dogpile on you. I personally think it's an excellent sign of how far we have come collectively, if there are at least three ex-ministers, now free from religion, posting on the largest and most well-trafficked ex-Church of God blog on the Internet.

Bill says: "Yes they do know what was before ...

2009-08-18T16:46:05.618+12:00

Bill says: "Yes they do know what was before the big bang. There was nothing. There was no matter. They do indeed claim matter came into existence at an instant; at this big bang. They theorize it was the result of super string theory, but fail to explain where the super strings came from, and neither to they explain why these super strings are have not been producing matter on any regular basis."

Bill, not all scientists maintain there was nothing before the big bang.

Some theorize that the matter we can sense is tied to one we cannot along a dimension into which we cannot see. These two universes oscillate along that dimension, periodically colliding and rearranging the matter in them--perhaps even their physical laws. Every collision looks like a big bang to the inhabitants. This is not the same thing as the theory that our universe falls back on itself in a big crunch and rebounds. That one just about everyone has rejected, given the evidence that the expansion of the universe is accelerating, instead of slowing down in preparation for falling back.

Other scientists theorize that our universe is just one bubble in an infinite froth of universes continuously coming into being, perhaps spawned by perturbations in ones that already exist.

There is no more evidence for these ideas than for a conscious creator. On the other hand, they are just as credible and just as much fun to speculate about, unless you get off on the idea of a creator who orders soldiers to kill everybody that pisseth against the wall.

For a skeptic the major advantage of physical over supernatural theories is that scientists give up physical theories when enough evidence against them accumulates (as they did with the "big crunch" idea), whereas creationists cling to supernatural theory no matter what.

The above exchange between Bill and Corky once aga...

2009-08-18T03:27:17.229+12:00

The above exchange between Bill and Corky once again illustrates the arrogance of fundamentalists: they spout their "creation science" mantras, which are tissue-thin arguments that have been soundly refuted time and again by the scientific community. If folks like Bill would ever actually do some serious reading from cutting edge scientists, perhaps they might see that their views are woefully obsolete and inadequate as explanations.

Just because science can't currently explain everything with absolute certainty about origins (the way some religions PRETEND to do) doesn't necessarily mean that the supernatural theistic view automatically wins by default. This is something that fundamentalists just don’t seem able or willing to understand. Such an assumption also seems to be the foundation of the so-called Intelligent Design movement.

But then again, it appears they really don't seem that interested in factual reality, only those factoids that can be used to prop up their religious ideology.

Bill, may I humbly suggest reading a very good book called "The Creationists" by Ronald L. Numbers? It's a well-documented history of the creationist movement.

And ConnedNoMore, I liked your phrase "The God Peddlers" - which I think would be a good title for a book on the subject, as there are so many of them in today's modern world, in spite of all that science has learned the past 400 years.

And for the record, I do NOT believe in "scientism" - the belief that scientifically proven and verified knowledge is the ONLY kind of legitimate knowledge - but neither do I fall hook, line and sinker for the supernatural alternatives, which to me seem more like subjective fantasies and wishes than genuine alternative views.

The hard fact is that there are many aspects of reality that we just don't presently understand very well at all. And we might as well make peace with that fact. I’d rather honestly admit “I don’t know” than make the leap to pretending to a form of knowledge (often called "revealed knowledge") that I really don’t possess, nor does anybody else.

HWA seemed unable to do this, perhaps because such a perspective requires a truly humble mind. He often wrote with scorn of the agnostic position. But look at the actual record: many of the dogmatic assertions he put forth with absolute certainty and “authority” have proven false time and again. The same thing can be said of Gerald Waterhouse, and many others both within and outside of the COG context.

Making dogmatic claims about reality with the absolute confidence that they are true doesn’t actually make them objectively true. Reality IS what it IS, in spite of what we may WANT it to be. Our job is to discover what that reality is and humbly face such facts as best we can, rather than desperately cling to ancient fantasies because they make us feel better. The latter provides only a false sense of security that is bound to disappoint us in the end.

Bill said... Corky; I suggest a trip to DisneyWorl...

2009-08-17T14:44:24.453+12:00

Bill said...
Corky; I suggest a trip to DisneyWorld. Don't forget to visit Fantasyland.
----------------------------
You know I would old friend but I can't afford it and I'm too old to enjoy it.

I would have loved to have gone there 30 years and more ago but Nam was the only trip I ever made that was far from home. Kinda sad, ain't it?

"Yes they do know what was before the big ban...

2009-08-17T14:36:37.239+12:00

"Yes they do know what was before the big bang. There was nothing. There was no matter. They do indeed claim matter came into existence at an instant; at this big bang. They theorize it was the result of super string theory, but fail to explain where the super strings came from, and neither to they explain why these super strings are have not been producing matter on any regular basis."

One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do
Two can be as bad as one
It's the loneliest number since the number one

"No" is the saddest experience you'll ever know
Yes, it's the saddest experience you'll ever know
'Cause one is the loneliest number that you'll ever do
One is the loneliest number, whoa, worse than two

It's just no good anymore since you went away
Now I spend my time just making rhymes of yesterday
One is the loneliest number
One is the loneliest number
One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do
One is the loneliest, one is the loneliest
One is the loneliest number that you'll ever do

It's just no good anymore since You went away

The one benefit I received from the WCG after 20 y...

2009-08-17T10:38:09.422+12:00

The one benefit I received from
the WCG after 20 years membership and employment was to become freed from all religion for all time.

Painful to look back upon but
oh so liberating to become immune to
all the god peddlers. That's at least one mistake I will never make
again. Thank you Herbert!

ConnedNoMore

Corky; I suggest a trip to DisneyWorld. Don't...

2009-08-17T04:24:47.469+12:00

Corky; I suggest a trip to DisneyWorld. Don't forget to visit Fantasyland.

Bill, I suggest ScienceDaily.com but you believe a...

2009-08-16T18:29:07.880+12:00

Bill, I suggest ScienceDaily.com but you believe as you will.

Corky said: Oh, I see now, you're not talking...

2009-08-16T17:28:25.064+12:00

Corky said:

Oh, I see now, you're not talking about matter coming into being, you are talking about how the universe came into being.

Um, Corky... the universe is matter.

""They" who? Science doesn't say that. Science simply doesn't know what was before the "big bang" "

Yes they do know what was before the big bang. There was nothing. There was no matter. They do indeed claim matter came into existence at an instant; at this big bang. They theorize it was the result of super string theory, but fail to explain where the super strings came from, and neither to they explain why these super strings are have not been producing matter on any regular basis.

"Quite the contrary, abiogenesis has already proved that it was indeed possible for life to come from non-life by producing amino acids (the building blocks of life) in a laboratory way back in the 60s."

Right. They produced amino acids then, and claimed the rest was not unlike the movie, Frankenstein. Just add lightning.

The latest research shows that the jump from non-life to life just could not have happened by any natural causation.

"They have done a lot more since then, you should read about it sometime."

Ditto.

Dennis, Thanks for giving us some more understan...

2009-08-16T17:02:18.095+12:00

Dennis,

Thanks for giving us some more understanding into how it worked on us.

Your presence from time to time is truly missed.

Nice to see you back, Dennis !! Missed reading yo...

2009-08-16T13:03:56.432+12:00

Nice to see you back, Dennis !! Missed reading your posts.

Bear said: "Psycholgists and sociologists ha...

2009-08-16T10:37:33.888+12:00

Bear said:

"Psycholgists and sociologists have rightly identified this behavior as a product of "loss of control." It is not about health care. It is about a small group of neo-conservative caucasians sensing that they are losing power. They must personally stand in the way of anything that Obama does in order to defeat him and the malevalent (read minority) forces trying to destroy American. Think for a moment. How could health insurance companies recruit caucasians with low levels of education to champion their cause as large corporations. Only by convincing these people that the country is being taken over by malevolent forces (read minority). so these people don't really care what the health bills say. They only care about what they want to believe that the health bills say."

How you managed to swerve into this discussion about medical care from the initial topic is beyond me. But since no one here has challenged you on your faulty remarks, I will.

"Psycholgists and sociologists have rightly identified this behavior as a product of "loss of control."

Yes, people tend to get frustrated when they are losing control of their situation. Nothing new there. We don't need psychologists pointing this out to us.

"It is not about health care."

That is correct. This is about medical care, and who shall pay for those who don't have any, such as myself. You don't have a right to medical care anymore than you have a right to auto insurance.

"It is about a small group of neo-conservative caucasians sensing that they are losing power."

Why are you playing the race card here? What about the liberal "Caucasians" who sense they are losing power? Just take a walk thru south St. Pete at night and see what kind of power you have. Try playing the race card there and see how far it gets you with the "brothers."

"They must personally stand in the way of anything that Obama does in order to defeat him and the malevalent (read minority) forces trying to destroy American."

Personally, I will stand in the way of our Marxist President until I can no longer stand. He is not fit to be president, given his sleazy background and his Marxist mentors.

"They only care about what they want to believe that the health bills say."

No, actually more people are reading this bill than members of Congress are. This is why more & more people are getting upset with its tacky and budget busting provisions.

VOTE THEM ALL OUT - EVERYTIME.

Let the 2nd American Revolution begin.

- Stingerski

Bill said... Matter came into being.. From what? ...

2009-08-16T07:53:39.528+12:00

Bill said...
Matter came into being..

From what? Who said?

Scientists call it the big bang..

Oh, I see now, you're not talking about matter coming into being, you are talking about how the universe came into being.

They claim it all came from nothing..

"They" who? Science doesn't say that. Science simply doesn't know what was before the "big bang"

Scripture claims it came from God..

Yes, here is where the universe came from nothing - it was poofed into existence.

Which sounds more plausible? No causality, or causality?.

Causality. Just as science says. There was a cause, they just don't know for sure what the cause was.

The light of life was self-lit.

Given our understanding now of science, chemistry, and a few other disciplines, the experts conclude that this is impossible..

Quite the contrary, abiogenesis has already proved that it was indeed possible for life to come from non-life by producing amino acids (the building blocks of life) in a laboratory way back in the 60s.

They have done a lot more since then, you should read about it sometime.

I would like to add that, while I may be partially...

2009-08-16T07:08:11.098+12:00

I would like to add that, while I may be partially screwed up now, I expect to become perfect sometime very soon, probably in the next 3-to-5 years, and almost certainly within the next 10-to-15 years.

Hopefully this does not get missed by most readers...

2009-08-16T05:57:44.379+12:00

Hopefully this does not get missed by most readers of this blog. I was reading recently that Sir Isaac Newton believed that Jesus was returning in his day. He even espoused the day for a year theory of prophetical events. He believed the 1260 days taken from a time, times and half a time, from the book of Revelation, referred to his day.

It was interesting to also find out that William Wiston, the translator of Josephus and Seventh Day Baptist believed Jesus was returning in 1836. I wonder how much that would have influenced William Miller who soon had his dates of the return.

How screwed up are you? Screwed up enough to under...

2009-08-16T03:10:27.271+12:00

How screwed up are you? Screwed up enough to understand why questions like this are important:

Back in the day, the minister tells you to jump out of the window. Do you jump out of the window?
Yes
No
Not sure

I wish this was a joke, but unfortunately it isn't.

It would appear that the whole issue brought up he...

2009-08-16T02:24:07.618+12:00

It would appear that the whole issue brought up here is one of trying to reconcile the past by placing it all in a neat little package where there really is no God. It was all just wishful thinking on everyone's part and it's understandable and forgivable to have fallen for all these deceptions rolling around out there for the last several thousand years.

We are the enlightened generation, having risen above our fellow man who are perceived as still gathered around a fire, hooting and howling at each other over that strange phenomenon.

But there are still some hard pressing issues out there that cannot be so easily swept under a global rug.

Matter came into being. Scientists call it the big bang. They claim it all came from nothing. Scripture claims it came from God. Which sounds more plausible? No causality, or causality?

Then there is the issue of Scripture itself, some written down long before the events it foretold, in detail, that came to pass. Oh, I know... easy enough to dismiss out of hand.

What of other historical evidence? If Jesus did not exist, then, using the same reasoning, Plato did not exist, Alexander the Great did not exist. All of it is just myths created and repeated down through history that cannot be truly verified or trusted.

The light of life was self-lit.

Given our understanding now of science, chemistry, and a few other disciplines, the experts conclude that this is impossible.

I guess then we just have to go forward on faith that we are here, despite the impossibility of it all, through natural causes.

It's time dispense with dispensationalism: If...

2009-08-15T23:34:05.180+12:00

It's time dispense with dispensationalism:

If a person really thinks that Obama is the antichrist, that our economy will never recover, and some foreign superpower will soon take the U.S. captive.... (ugh!)... don't you think that person should be HAPPY that Christ will soon return (and that they will be saved from it all).

No, their constant fear mongering is ironically the biggest evidence of their own doubt.

BTW: if you come across someone who actually IS happy that the world is going to crap (as they see it)... don't drink the kool aid.

"How Screwed Up Are You?" prophecy isn&...

2009-08-15T22:10:53.320+12:00

"How Screwed Up Are You?"

prophecy isn't my thing....micky said

Normally Screwed Up Average Human Being".......paco said

enough votes to make it into the "canon" of the bible..anon said

I was less damaged than most...anon said

This was the way I unscrewed myself....anon said

I was so absorbed with the WCG and prophecy.....bear track said

They could not have been truly comprehended...larry said

Revelation gives Gentiles nothing but grief. ...dennis said

The early Christians yanked passages out of context from the Jewish scriptures...corky said

The Bible says don't worry about it, so I don't....mark said

We could be in the end times.....or not....byker bob said

it is tragic to get sucked into the vacuous way of life and non-thinking that is religious fundamentalism.....leonardo said

A combination of all of the possibilities or the happenstance...corky said

Anyone wanna buy a tent? I didn't think so.....dennis said

comments are likely to hit the trash can first, even faster than cut 'n paste proof texts....gavin said

I simply reached down and opened the flimsy trap....jack635 said

the end times are real I can say this with confidence.....mr scribe said

each of us will experience our own little private apocalypse...retired prof said

there is value in trying to understand the literary devices used to portray the spiritual message...kiwi said

respect to......retired prof

Absolutely....Tkach's $wiss Banker said

I gave up halfway through...gavin said

me, well I'm perfect

Not intending to upset you Kiwi, but I've read...

2009-08-15T20:33:31.242+12:00

Not intending to upset you Kiwi, but I've read "In the Shadow of the Temple" by Skarsaune, and definitely wasn't impressed. The guy has a huge apologetic agenda... which is why IVP probably ended up publishing it. He also wrote "Incarnation: Myth or Fact?" which was so awful I gave up halfway through.

Dennis said: "..the book of James..contradic...

2009-08-15T17:52:49.190+12:00

Dennis said:

"..the book of James..contradicts Romans."

Absolutely.

"Acts..is mostly fiction."

Absolutely.

In my previous post I did not answer how screwed u...

2009-08-15T15:49:03.914+12:00

In my previous post I did not answer how screwed up I am.

Not much.

I owe my mother, the parent I lived with after the divorce. When my sisters and I were kids, she observed our birthdays. She reminded us that Mr. Armstrong said, "Don't believe me, believe your Bible!" She took him at his word and couldn't find any biblical reason to avoid birthday celebrations. COG ministers urged her to marry again. They told her that her first marriage didn't count, since my father still had a living ex-wife. She resisted. She had no interest in marrying again, and nowhere in the Bible did she find any requirement to do so. When I grew skeptical about what I was being taught at Ambassador College and applied to transfer to a different school, she assured me that the decision was mine alone to make and she would support me in it. She said I should not continue to attend church for her sake--only if it satisfied my needs. It didn't, so I quit. Forty years later, a year or so before she died, she was recounting some of the doctrinal and administrative turmoil WCG (and then UCG) had gone through. She summed up her attitude with, "I just followed my own conscience."

Even though she died a UCG member and apparently I will die a skeptic, a lot of her rubbed off on me. I'm thankful.

Dennis, I suggest you read "In the Shadow of ...

2009-08-15T15:41:20.909+12:00

Dennis, I suggest you read "In the Shadow of the Temple" by Oskar Skarsaune to correct your claim that there was friction between Jewish believers and Paul. Ample historical evidence proves otherwise. Also, 135CE was arguably more significant for Jewish believers than 70CE. Later still, as gentile christianity became more and more politicized, there was movement away from the early unity between Jewish and non-Jewish believers.
You may not believe the claims made about Christ in the NT, but the NT is not wrong at the historical level.
As for Revelation, well, it's apocalyptic and symbolic in style. The 144,000 for instance are the redeemed portrayed as the army of Israel, i.e. they are imputed to be pure - as OC Israel was through purity laws so NC Israel is through redemption.
They don't have to be a bunch of monks or all male or all Israelites. Again, you may not believe its spiritual message, but there is value in trying to understand the literary devices used to portray the spiritual message in an ancient document produced by a culture very distant from us. If only the CoGs would do so as well!!!!
The words "cultural sensitivity" spring to mind here.....

Corky said, "One can only hope that the real ...

2009-08-15T15:18:25.905+12:00

Corky said, "One can only hope that the real apocalypse doesn't happen in their own lifetime."

I'm not sure it makes much difference, actually. Even if we escape the final general cataclysm, each of us will experience our own little private apocalypse. We may regret it just as bitterly, albeit in a different way.

My father looked forward with eagerness to the glorious sight of blood running deep as the horses' bridles as he valiantly swung his sword, fighting at the right hand of Jesus. In reality he faded out bit by bit as mini-strokes chipped away at his brain, and he spent the last months of his life inert in his bed in a nursing home. I doubt it ever dawned on him while he was still lucid how mundane his final battle would be.

As mundane as the last days of the Armstrongs who enticed him into his delusion.

Well if the end times are real I can say this with...

2009-08-15T14:11:29.083+12:00

Well if the end times are real I can say this with confidence:

"We crucified Jesus once, and we can do it again."

Come back sweet Jesus, come back!

Hint: Click on my name for an evil offense!