Comments on Ambassador Watch: UCG - in transition?

Dear Purple Hymnal, You are sadly mistaken if you...

2009-05-28T06:06:25.098+12:00

Dear Purple Hymnal,

You are sadly mistaken if you think that Homer Kizer, http://homerkizer.org and Dr. Keizer from http://www.hometemple.org/ are one and the same. You should really get your facts straight before you malign others.

"Dear Purple Hymnal, I don't know where you get y...

2009-05-27T10:42:13.685+12:00

"Dear Purple Hymnal,

I don't know where you get your information re: Kizer."

Here.

Questeruk, FWIW, I've seen many cults use the "pe...

2009-05-19T18:26:00.000+12:00

Questeruk,

FWIW, I've seen many cults use the "personal responsibility to think for themselves" thingy, while actually it's a way of the cult further getting their claws into members and making them THINK they are "thinking for themselves", and the members believe they are so 'free', yet are simply buying into manipulative rhetoric, while they become less free than before.

Dear Purple Hymnal, I don't know where you get yo...

2009-05-19T00:44:00.000+12:00

Dear Purple Hymnal,

I don't know where you get your information re: Kizer.

He has never ordained anyone and doesn't ask for tithes.

Purple Hymnal said... “United is, in my opinion,...

2009-05-18T10:49:00.000+12:00

Purple Hymnal said...

“United is, in my opinion, not changing or changed at all, in the slightest, from the church exactly as I remember it.”

Actually Aggie, UCG is a lot different animal to WCG of the 1980’s.

Particularly the emphasis has shifted on to individuals having personal responsibility to think for themselves in what they believe, and not be looking for the church to do their thinking for them.

Obviously guidance is available, but every individual needs to believe what they believe because they believe it, not because someone tells them to believe it, which was the flavour of the 80’s.

(Incidentally, who is the one publicly-posting UCG member who has now completely disappeared from the ex-Church of God blogosphere? I hadn’t noticed anyone missing recently.)

"Typological exegesis, the supposed bailiwick of r...

2009-05-18T07:50:00.000+12:00

"Typological exegesis, the supposed bailiwick of religious greats like Jonathon Edwards, Samuel Mather and John Calvin, have lost the limelight to Homer Kizer.

Why?"

Because Homer Kizer, a former member of the church, has his own Bible Correspondence Course, that seeks to piggyback on the (worst) tenets of religious Gnosticism, with a really blurry, syncretic Armstrongism that makes my eyes ache to read.....And, oh yeah, he "ordains" every lowly church member who ponies up the tithes, so any CoG member who's been in long enough, but who hasn't made it up the ranks in the lay-ministry, can get in on the ground floor with Kaiser.

Er, I mean *Kizer*. Yeah, that's it. ;-)

I was finally able to find Mr. Dick's sermon on-li...

2009-05-18T05:07:00.000+12:00

I was finally able to find Mr. Dick's sermon on-line. After listening, it seems tha UCG fears its message is drowning in all the religious babble, when in actuality, it is going down for the third time with its dying breath.

Changing the tone of the message will not help--the message is wrong.

If you type in search terms like: man of perdition, daniel and revelation, essential endtime man or typological exegesis, links associated with http://www.portaustinbiblecenter.com/links.html appear on the first page of google results--sometimes the first ten search returns contain multiple entries from PABC's associated sites. UCG, PCG, WCG, biblestudy.org are pages back.

Typological exegesis, the supposed bailiwick of religious greats like Jonathon Edwards, Samuel Mather and John Calvin, have lost the limelight to Homer Kizer.

Why?

"Another observation: why is there a secret underg...

2009-05-17T14:10:00.000+12:00

"Another observation: why is there a secret underground Elder's Forum by invitation only, if the new guys want transparency?"Whaaaaat?! I thought people were being facetious about that!! Anonymous, if you've got some kind of inside scoop on that, do tell!!

"Television? From the research I've read religious television is dead!!!"The fact that they want to spend over a million bucks on Beyond Today pretty much screams of hard-line Armstrongism --- I remember several coworker letters begging us to fund "Preaching the Gospel of Christ to all the world through the telecast".

I'm telling you, nothing has changed. That single, small part of the parallel Armstrongist universe, still exists --- in the United Church of God.

And the ministry shenanigans you speak of?? Were 100% par for the course, back in the day. Why do you think ministers got bumped around as much as they did? Politics. Every congregation was rife with it.

Changes in United? Only if they start bleating about the trinity, get rid of the food laws, and eradicate the British-Israelism. And, no matter how "liberal" they may claim to be, there's no way on earth (this one, at any rate) they're going to do any of that.....Unless, by some freak of chance, Kilough hands over the reins to a Tkach-wannabe.

But, yeah, if United does split --- that's going to be the last major splinter group of the church, down the tubes. Which means the footprint of Armstrongism on the world will be even smaller than it is now. That is definitely something to hope for, in my opinion.

Once United goes bust, it's all downhill from there, for the Churches of God movement. They may have lasted for three-quarters of a century (and no kingdom yet), but there's no way they will be celebrating a centennial. Not in this timeline, at any rate.

Aggie, I listened to Bob Dick's sermon and from wh...

2009-05-17T10:27:00.000+12:00

Aggie, I listened to Bob Dick's sermon and from what I've come to learn about United's "new guys" on the block, I'd say he was choosing his words with extreme caution and care. He's from the old guard and has been replaced. And, from what I've heard, the new guys want to return to television at the tune of ~million plus dollars per program, and they are willing to do anything to get their way...even, believe it or not, hang the full time ministry out to dry. Can you say "ruthless?" Hmmm, doesn't sound like an "ethical" approach to me...how is this type of behavior going to "build unity" amongst the ministry? Guess it will be easy if there aren't any ministers to have to be unified with!!? Another observation: why is there a secret underground Elder's Forum by invitation only, if the new guys want transparency?

Now that the balance of power on the Council has shifted there is no stopping these men from making whatever changes are necessary to fund their dream of TV. Why do you think Mr. Dick spent so much time illustrating the sheer numbers of religious programing on TV today?...United would be a very small fish in a huge ocean. Think about it, why is there now, in United, discussion about more responsibility being given to the brethren and diminishing the role of the pastor/shepherd? Does anyone really believe this model of governing is better? Could it be because it frees up minister's incomes for use elsewhere...TV programing? So, it's hello congregationalism...bye bye minister, and, hello local elders and deacons to run the show...all this to attempt to preach the gospel on Television?! Television? From the research I've read religious television is dead!!!

"Quite minor changes from an outsider's perspectiv...

2009-05-17T06:18:00.000+12:00

"Quite minor changes from an outsider's perspective can be a huge deal from an insider's view."

That's just the thing, though; listening to Dick's sermon, and reading through the sermon archives, and looking at the church literature, UCG is exactly the church I remember; in other words, they haven't changed at all.

They have long been viewed by many in the ex-member community as mostly harmless, and I believe this latest "rumour source" has been actively trying to promote that view amongst ex-members and on various blogs and forums.

(You will note that, since all of this hit the fan, the one publicly-posting UCG member has now completely disappeared from the ex-Church of God blogosphere.)

If UCG really was having a 1993 moment, you would start seeing reissued church literature with revamped doctrinal concepts they don't really understand themselves; there would be an influx of United members onto the blogs and the Internet, trying to find out what's happening, inside an impregnable leadership; and there would be many more "wars and rumours of wars" that would make it to light.

Instead we get a long and jovial screed from Bob Dick about how good it was in the old Ambassador days of field ministry, and joking about how professing Christians are taking up with Adventist and Jewish doctrines The One True Church had first.

I agree with you, minor changes which seem like no big deal are and have been catastrophic, to those on the inside (I remember the 1990 - 1996 period in the church all too clearly, thank you.), but it is my opinion that none of these changes, nor changes even remotely similar to what the Tkaches enacted in the 1990s, is happening here.

United is, in my opinion, not changing or changed at all, in the slightest, from the church exactly as I remember it.

Yeah, well, but... People usually inch toward cha...

2009-05-15T21:52:00.000+12:00

Yeah, well, but...

People usually inch toward changed positions rather than leapfrog. Change in UCG is building a head of stream, from what I can gather, but it might not take the direction you or I would predict. Quite minor changes from an outsider's perspective can be a huge deal from an insider's view. I was skeptical about claims on some other blogs that it might all lead to a schism with tears before bedtime, but now I'm not so sure.

Just rereading Gavin's post again. In light of Bob...

2009-05-15T20:59:00.000+12:00

Just rereading Gavin's post again. In light of Bob Dick's "Time stood still in 1985" sermon from May 2, does anyone have access to these bios in question? Would be interesting to read them to see if they stack up to "the source" and its unfounded rumours, or if it turns out to be so much smoke and mirrors, designed to get people to pay attention to the UCG, the way its rumours about Dick's sermon did.

That said, drawing attention to UCG seems to have an entirely unintended effect: It's made people realize how much United really hasn't changed, and is never going to change, no matter what rumours exist.

A look at the bios though, to prove the allegations of the source, would be interesting. Especially in light of how far off the mark the source was, in re: Dick's sermon.

"I will check out the site and reply to his unsubs...

2009-05-12T07:28:00.000+12:00

"I will check out the site and reply to his unsubstantiated allegations."

Don't bother. they're substantiated. And if you claim they're not, you are a liar.

Larry, we have to remember that during the era whe...

2009-05-11T09:02:00.000+12:00

Larry, we have to remember that during the era when Herbert W. Armstrong was writing advertising copy, it was not uncommon for there to be ads in magazines stating "9 out of 10 doctors who smoke prefer Chesterfields"

If you claim to be speaking for God, while preaching the gospel or prophesying, it is important to keep things real. When you use unprovable theories or shoddy research as an integral part of such a message, you not only discredit the message, you also cause people who know better to mock.

I'm just so thankful to have had these lying false witnesses as an example. That background has helped me to find and appreciate a church where the ministry and members do strive to keep things real.

One of the things which I found particularly reprehensible while I was a student at AC was that the majority of the students gradually subverted their own natural personalities and adopted a super plastic fake personality, now known as the "Universal Ambassador Personality", or UAP for short. It was instantly recognizeable. You'd see it every sabbath, as all the ministers who had attended AC had it.

BB

Miguel de la Rodente said... >>Do you reall...

2009-05-11T04:53:00.000+12:00

Miguel de la Rodente said...

>>Do you really not know that to most of us the "PT" is the Painful Truth website at www.hwarmstrong.com?<<

Thanks for the info. I just wanted to set James' comments within the culture of the organisation or media he represents, as I had never heard of him.

I will check out the site and reply to his unsubstantiated allegations.

Elegant in this case means...beauty that inspires ...

2009-05-11T04:37:00.000+12:00

Elegant in this case means...beauty that inspires admiration.

Like it or not, British-Israelism is a theory that is relatively simple, but solves a lot of mysteries and answers a lot of questions that would otherwise remain unsolved and unanswered. Genetic "evidence" has not confirmed it, but has not disproved it either.

I get the distinct impression that the major opposition to "BI" on this board is because HWA made it a centerpiece of his preaching (although he didn't "invent" it) and Gerald Waterhouse certainly did. Therefore, in any attempt to discredit Herbert Armstrong, BI is an "easy target" so to speak.

I guess it doesn't bother anyone that BI makes a great deal of sense from a historical, geopolitical, and Biblical prophecy standpoint. Even many Jews believe it. But, we can't have that, can we?

BI is an "elegant" theory ?!?!? Well, maybe if po...

2009-05-10T20:12:00.000+12:00

BI is an "elegant" theory ?!?!?

Well, maybe if pounding a square peg through a round hole is considered "elegant".
But really, I doubt that the word "elegant" has come to have a new meaning lately.

For describing BI, I could go with "fantastical".
Yeah, that's the ticket.
But, no one's gonna say that most "fantastical" theories turn out to be true.

Oh, never mind. I give up!
BI must be elegant!
Anything bookletized by GOD'S TRUE HERBIE must be "elegant", since God gives only the very finest and most elegant things unto HIS VERY ELECT.

Sometimes, when things get confusing and I'm feeling down, I just lay back and bask in the wonderfulness of UNDERSTANDING that God has blessed me with His TRUTH, as revealed by the ONE TRUE HERBIE.
Ahhhhhhh! Feels good to get myself back on track.

UCG - in transition?Nah, those lying politicians a...

2009-05-10T14:22:00.000+12:00

UCG - in transition?Nah, those lying politicians are just on their way to fry in the trib.

"If the Anglo-Israel Theory is so crash hot, then ...

2009-05-10T00:39:00.000+12:00

"If the Anglo-Israel Theory is so crash hot, then why does the UCG have it near the bottom of their booklet list ?"

It's on the front page of the Canadian UCG site, and is the first book they recommend. Has been for years.

Tom Mahon, Do you really not know that to most o...

2009-05-09T20:17:00.000+12:00

Tom Mahon,

Do you really not know that to most of us the "PT" is the Painful Truth website at www.hwarmstrong.com?

You should check it out. The site is a very valuable resource, where the many evils of Armstrongism are catalogued, exposed, and discussed.

James is the new editor, and is doing an excellent job.

thought he could sell itMark, I sometimes hypothes...

2009-05-09T14:30:00.000+12:00

thought he could sell itMark, I sometimes hypothesize on minutiae like that. It's interesting that Herb kept his correspondence from the early days, to be used later by the Tkatch WCG to dismiss BI. If the bookseller who handled JH Allen and other such authors had published Herb's rewrite, what would have happened...?

And the rest of the lost tribes were found by Herman Hoeh. He was told to write up an article placing the non-Josephites throughout Europe. And despite Hoeh hanging on to the new WCG, the splinters still follow his writings as well as Herb's works.

"Herbert W. Armstrong always said "Prove all thing...

2009-05-09T08:07:00.000+12:00

"Herbert W. Armstrong always said "Prove all things!" Yet, you cannot prove British Israelism, and he made it the cornerstone of prophecy. That is not to say that HWA did not try to prove BI. He did. Only he used lying witness to do this, making up ridiculous things such as 'saac's sons, Tuatha del Danaan, and berith-ish, from whole cloth. And even though the stupity of these Hebrew-Ebonics combinations, sound alikes, and witty guesses were pointed out, his followers continued to publish them unashamedly as gospel truth.

And let's not forget that HWA clearly and irrefutably copied most of his "inspired" work from some book he read in the Eugene, OR public library. Why plagiarize? Because it isn't inspired and he just thought he could sell it. After all, he WAS a failed salesman, looking for something else to sell. He has a lot of ego problems.

"Mark, lots of folks believe in British-Israelism ...

2009-05-09T07:54:00.000+12:00

"Mark, lots of folks believe in British-Israelism who have never heard of Herbert Armstrong. BI has never been disproved."

Lots of folks also believe that 9/11 was an FBI conspiracy. As for it not being disproved, that's just plain not true. It is about as biblically accurate as the Da Vinci Code.

Adherents to BI have absolutely no credibility on anything else.

Anonymous said, "You guys don't actually still bel...

2009-05-09T06:22:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said, "You guys don't actually still believe that GOD inspired every word of that self-contradictory, science-defying, reality-defying, endlessly edited set of ancient writings, do you?"YES WE DO! and nothing your scoffing says will change that. Sorry, but you and your father don't have power over our minds anymore. We have absolute faith that God will do everything he said he would.

If the Anglo-Israel Theory is so crash hot, then w...

2009-05-09T02:54:00.000+12:00

If the Anglo-Israel Theory is so crash hot, then why does the UCG have it near the bottom of their booklet list ?

Fact is the tithe-raking millionaire leaders of the UCG-Cult don't believe this nonsense - they only continue with it to prevent offending their best tithers (the old geriatric dumbasses that populate their boring meetings)