Comments on Ambassador Watch: Sukkoth Thoughts

For any who wish to listen to Bishop John Spong be...

2007-10-02T14:08:00.000+13:00

For any who wish to listen to Bishop John Spong being interviewed on Radio NZ,you can access archives using the following:

http://www.radionz.co.nz/nr/
programmes/spiritualoutlook

Audio from Previous Programmes
Spiritual Outlook For 30 September (duration: 27′38″)
Maureen Garing talks with controversial bishop and moral activist, John Shelby Spong.

Spiritual Outlook
with Maureen Garing
Sundays at 5pm
A seasonal interview-based programme on spiritual topics of wide ranging interest, alternating with Touchstone.

Audio from Previous Programmes

Spiritual Outlook for 23 September 2007 (duration: 23′22″)
Maureen Garing talks to Keith Carley. an Old Testament scholar, about the spiritual aspects of climate change.

Spiritual Outlook for 16 September 2007 (duration: 25′21″)
Mark Brown tells Maureen Garing about the virtual church he has established in the computer-accessed world known as Second Life.

Spiritual Outlook for 9 September 2007 (duration: 25′11″)
Rabbi Johanna Hershenson talks with Maureen Garing about the Jewish High Holidays season which begins with the celebration of Jewish New Year, closely followed by the day of Atonement and the festival of Booths.

Spiritual Outlook for 2 September 2007 (duration: 23′00″)
Maureen Garing talks with Bernie Prior who runs courses to help people reach self-realisation.

Spiritual Outlook for 26 August 2007 (duration: 23′34″)
Maureen Garing talks to Abdullah Drury a New Zealander who converted to Islam.

Quite a selection of religious speakers for the interested.

Seamus

Seven thousand did not bow their knees to Baal. An...

2007-10-02T04:23:00.000+13:00

Seven thousand did not bow their knees to Baal. And perhaps this Last Great
Day, we can celebrate with Christians not associated with Armstrongism, keeping
the Feast of Tabernacles: Just watch
the Days of Elijah -- a
joyous celebration.

Gavin,I, too, heard John Spong,but on our own Nati...

2007-10-01T10:49:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

I, too, heard John Spong,but on our own National Radio,756AM,30/9/07,1700 hrs, talking to Maureen Garring.

I did not agree with his interpretation of many of the issues discussed,but nevertheless,he is rivetting material, and of course,very clear in his delivery.

And, this man does hold a belief in God,as he himself has said.This makes for extremely interesting theology.

Seamus

2007-10-01T10:09:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Regarding the comment "For one thing there is that...

2007-10-01T09:46:00.000+13:00

Regarding the comment "For one thing there is that "Palm Sunday" procession. Wrong time of year for leafy branches."

Aside from the above comment that Palm trees are evergreens, there is also the matter that there were three harvest seasons per year, of which Passover was one of them. So clearly a lengthy amount of growing time occurred prior to Passover. Plenty of time for new growth, even for an evergreen.

For Paul:Ah yes, ye old appeal to the "spirit" of ...

2007-10-01T04:59:00.000+13:00

For Paul:

Ah yes, ye old appeal to the "spirit" of the law. ;-)

I usually run into this excuse with people who just don't want to go by the letter of the law, e.g. build a booth for the (hint, hint) Feast of Booths. Somehow the "spirit" has told them that Motel 6 is a ready substitution. And their womenfolk are not even required to be there! So, it can be anything goes with the fair sex. They can have it both ways, as usual.

When you look at all the exemptions, excuses and just plain wafflings the old Worldweird Church employed in the name of convenience it's a wonder we had any coherent doctrine at all. But, as I've been saying for a long time, every man (and woman) does that which is right in their own eyes -- and all the time, 24/7. And Worldweird was proof positive of that, not to mention her 400+ daughter whores, each going their own separate way.

Having read John Spong, I do have to say he has le...

2007-10-01T02:08:00.000+13:00

Having read John Spong, I do have to say he has learned the art of selling books by repeating in each book what he explained in the last of a different title.

Bamboo Bends said: "They have teeth along the bra...

2007-09-30T23:57:00.000+13:00

Bamboo Bends said:

"They have teeth along the branches like a logger's bucksaw.
I assume the middle east didn't have those, or Jesus would have cut his feet to shreds (or was he riding a donkey at that point...I forget)."

Actually it depends.

Matthew bases this fictional story on a misunderstood story in Scripture. In that story, the prophet speaks of a king riding a donkey--a colt (a young male donkey), the foal of a donkey:

"Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king is coming to you; He is just and endowed with salvation, Humble, and mounted on a donkey, Even on a colt, the foal of a donkey." (Zechariah 9:9 NASB)

Obviously, Zechariah didn’t mean that the king was riding a donkey and a colt; he was merely telling us that the donkey was a colt foal (young son) of a donkey.

Unfortunately for Matthew, he thinks the prophet meant that there were TWO animals: a donkey, AND a colt, instead of just a donkey which was a young colt. Thus,

Matthew INVENTS a story in which Jesus sends his disciples to fetch an ass and a colt, so that Jesus might ride on them into Jerusalem. The other gospel writers weren't so foolish. Here is the evidence.

Matthew: Jesus Sent for an Ass and a Colt

"And …then sent Jesus two disciples, Saying unto them, Go into the village over against you, and straightway ye shall find an ass tied, and a colt with her: loose them, and bring them unto me… All this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, Tell ye the daughter of Sion, Behold, thy King cometh unto thee, meek, and sitting upon an ass, AND a colt the foal of an ass." (Matthew 21:1-5)

Kinda difficult to ride both at the same time, but not for Matthew to imagine evidently.

Mark, Luke, and John, understood Zechariah; according to them, Jesus sent his disciples after only one animal. Mark and Luke call the animal a "colt," and John calls it an "ass," and all three versions are compatible with the "prophecy" in Zechariah, wherein the animal is described as a donkey which is a colt.

Mark: Jesus Sent for a Colt

"And …he sendeth forth two of his disciples, And saith unto them, Go your way into the village over against you: and as soon as ye be entered into it, ye shall find a colt tied, whereon never man sat; loose him, and bring him…And they brought the colt to Jesus, and cast their garments on him; and he sat upon him." (Mark 11:1-7)

Luke: Jesus Sent for a Colt

"Go ye into the village over against you; in the which at your entering ye shall find a colt tied, whereon yet never man sat: loose him, and bring him hither. …35 And they brought him to Jesus: and they cast their garments upon the colt, and they set Jesus thereon." (Luke 19:30-35)

John: Jesus Sent for an Ass

"And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt." (John 12: 14-15)

The conclusion is inescapable: Matthew thought Zechariah was referring to two animals, but it is obvious that Zechariah was referring to just one animal.

I know..sorry you said anything! :)

Gaving Replied: ...Leafy branches? Problem. How 'b...

2007-09-30T22:44:00.000+13:00

Gaving Replied: ...Leafy branches? Problem. How 'bout palm fronts? Yup, that'll do nicely.

Ahhh...gotcha now. Usually you're vastly more coherent than Thiel (like that's hard). I lost the chain of thought on that bit of trivia. Thanks for stitchin' it back together.

As a kid I kinda wondered about that. Ever seen a Mexican fan palm? They have teeth along the branches like a logger's bucksaw.
I assume the middle east didn't have those, or Jesus would have cut his feet to shreds (or was he riding a donkey at that point...I forget).

But let's assume they just had date palms....I've seen kids get nasty pokes in the scalp from the tips of those things, they're sharp as thorns. Jesus would have got his shins poked from those too.

A crowd waving palm fronds is a crowd wanting to poke somebody's eye out. In the movies they have these nice lacey queen and king palms...yeah...the actor's guild probably required it for safety! In theory that climate could grow a coconut palm, but you don't find coconuts in Israeli dig sites.

But then given relative unpopularity of the Roman occupation in Judea, maybe there was a method to the madness. If the centurions got little out of hand...whack them with a date palm frond!

Ouch, lo avete colpito nel mio occhio! "Sorry mate, me and the lads wuz just worshiping the Lord of Lords!"

Enjoyed the post and comment about fig tree. :Not ...

2007-09-30T22:38:00.000+13:00

Enjoyed the post and comment about fig tree.

:Not that anyone in the post-WCG tradition constructs booths from branches"

We do-- lots of people do. See my blog for more.

As has been pointed out before, the Feast is for a...

2007-09-30T17:58:00.000+13:00

As has been pointed out before, the Feast is for all seasons. Just wait several millenmia. Because there is no Sanhedrin, the Jews can't fix their crummy calendar which keeps sliding the Feast further and further until folks will be keeping the Feast at Thanksgiving, then Christmas, then Valentine's day, followed by the Spring Passover time [which will by then be kept in the fall] then summer time, convenient for vacations and then finally just after Labor Day again.

Of course, as humanity spreads to other galaxies and star systems, the problem will be seriously compounded. We'd love to see the Feast transfer requests.

Then again, the problem may be fixed permanently in the next 20 years....

Seems deserted around here. Is it just me, or does...

2007-09-30T16:01:00.000+13:00

Seems deserted around here.

Is it just me, or does it feel like Harry Potter at Hogwarts during Christmas break when everyone else has gone home??

Oh, the Feast.

Paul

"It is odd that Spong engages, when convenient, in...

2007-09-30T15:26:00.000+13:00

"It is odd that Spong engages, when convenient, in a kind of Biblical literalism worthy of any fundamentalist."

Just as Armstrongites engage, when convenient, in a kind of Biblical liberalism worthy of Spong himself, when it comes to The Law.

Paul

"And for those who willingly strain at the cocktai...

2007-09-30T15:23:00.000+13:00

"And for those who willingly strain at the cocktail shrimp, but swallow the hotel room deception..."

That's priceless!!

Of course, the answer would be that you can't comprehend the "spirit of the law" versus the "letter of the law." Jebus revealed the spiritual intent behind the law which now allows God's True People to eat out on the Sabbath and stay in a condo during the FOT. Sadly, you just can't grasp that. (Of course, none of this is Biblical, but who cares!)

Paul

Hello Gavin,I've found this discussion about the f...

2007-09-30T13:53:00.000+13:00

Hello Gavin,

I've found this discussion about the fig tree and palm fronds quite interesting. This is just another example of what we don't know for sure about that society back then (anymore than that jokester GTA understood that "dove's dung" was referring to chick peas).

And I've also been reminding Armstrongites for almost a decade now that Motel 6 is NOT a "booth." And for those who willingly strain at the cocktail shrimp, but swallow the hotel room deception, they cannot "appeal" to some Jesus for this, ahem, justification for not doing as clearly instructed to do in Lev. 23:42.

Such a Jesus, as I continue to find:

- has no proof of any existence

- never wrote down a single thing (until we come to the Book of Rev -- hmmmmmm?)

- cannot even be accurately quoted by the four gospel writers, who were supposedly under the direct influence of the holy spirit.

In short, it's all a load of Cods wallop, as promulgated by the Type Two & Three religionists among us.

Every man does that which is right in his own eyes -- and all the time.
- Stinger 1:1

When one engages in literalist interpretations, ha...

2007-09-30T12:12:00.000+13:00

When one engages in literalist interpretations, having to do with the botany of the fig tree, the larger point is missed. One can hearken to such ideas as small, edible, green, early figs or figs from last year still on the tree and dried to properly place this in the Passover season. But why?

The information is explicitly given to us that this was not the season for figs. This should lead us to wonder what the real meaning of this event was. Obviously, it is not what it appears to be on the surface. Piecing a few scriptures together, the reader can see what the point is and will understand that the fig tree event was intended as an illustration.

It is odd that Spong engages, when convenient, in a kind of Biblical literalism worthy of any fundamentalist.

-- Neo

uh oh...Minimalist has "the secret" Great site!

2007-09-30T10:35:00.000+13:00

uh oh...Minimalist has "the secret" Great site!

When Odysseus entered the city of the Phaeacians h...

2007-09-30T10:22:00.000+13:00

When Odysseus entered the city of the Phaeacians he saw a fig tree bearing fruit out of season. Whoops!
http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/mkhmrfiles/mkhmrpt2.htm#top2

How ironic the new WCG magazine is called ODYSSEY. Talk about getting back to roots !

Good question BB. Here's where those Gospel write...

2007-09-30T10:02:00.000+13:00

Good question BB. Here's where those Gospel writers get tricky. Mark, the first off the block, doesn't say anything about palm branches at all, he calls them "leafy branches" (Mk 11:8). By the time the guy who wrote John got around to it, all Mark's difficult bits had been fixed up, rewritten or redeveloped (oh dear, no virgin birth story? Tell Luke to get right on it!) Leafy branches? Problem. How 'bout palm fronts? Yup, that'll do nicely.

Of course Jesus never existed , which makes the Go...

2007-09-30T09:56:00.000+13:00

Of course Jesus never existed , which makes the Gospel of Mark the greatest hoax in history. Think about it, the greatest hoax in history !

Gavin wrote, quoting Spong (who I like).... «...

2007-09-30T08:35:00.000+13:00

Gavin wrote, quoting Spong (who I like).... ««Among other things today, the bishop put the case for rethinking the time of Jesus death in Jerusalem. The gospels all agree that it was at the Passover, but then again, maybe not.

For one thing there is that "Palm Sunday" procession. Wrong time of year for leafy branches.»»

Am I missing something obvious Gavin?

Since when did Palm leaves have a season? They're evergreens. They also have branches but not in the usual tree sense.

Last I remembered I don't recall people driving down Hollywood Blvd to admire the fall colors.

Perhaps its just my lack of †faith† during this period of my apostasy?

No matter how you pick it, the fig tree was the in...

2007-09-30T07:30:00.000+13:00

No matter how you pick it, the fig tree was the innocent bystander in all this. Leave it to religion to curse the innocent.

hmmmmm, well so much for inerrancy of telling the ...

2007-09-30T05:16:00.000+13:00

hmmmmm, well so much for inerrancy of telling the story. I could at least remember if I wrecked the car before I went to Walmart or after.

The Gospels can't even agree on whether the tree w...

2007-09-30T05:01:00.000+13:00

The Gospels can't even agree on whether the tree whithered on the spot or the next day.

Mark has Jesus curse the tree before going TO the Temple and Matthew has him curse it after he comes back FROM the temple event.

Bible writers believed that events prophesied in Scripture would be fulfilled with the coming of Jesus, so they had Jesus' disappointment with the fig tree be a metaphorical parable of his disappointment with Israel. The prophecy on which the writers based the fig-tree cursing incident is found in Jeremiah:

"I will take away their harvest, declares the LORD. There will be no grapes on the vine. There will be no figs on the tree, and their leaves will wither. What I have given them will be taken from them." (Jeremiah 8:13 NIV)

The message from these accounts is, just as Jeremiah predicted, Israel's vine is not yet ready to bear fruit.

It's obvious from scripture that God hates figs. ...

2007-09-30T04:50:00.000+13:00

It's obvious from scripture that God hates figs.

"For it was not the season for figs" is the author's way of telling the reader this was really a misplaced event that really happened in the Fall, as in "Let him who reads, understand."

While well meaning, Dr. Martin always took a too literal approach in endeavoring to explain Biblical events.

With all due respect, the cursing of the fig tree comes before the upsetting of the tables at the temple. The lesson is that just as fig trees that bear no fruit have a right to exist, a temple that bears no fruit has no right to exist.

It has nothing to do with Adam and Eve or OT trees.