Comments on Ambassador Watch: Duelling with Bibles

Now that L. McCulluough and C. Kilouh were seen lo...

2007-03-02T15:34:00.000+13:00

Now that L. McCulluough and C. Kilouh were seen looking at land in Dallas to buy for a new headquarters and college for the United Church, their members in Texas will likely be excited to have the United HQ in their state.

Sorry about the duplicated post!

2007-02-28T04:03:00.000+13:00

Sorry about the duplicated post!

Neo,Do you believe, as do fundamentalists and theo...

2007-02-28T04:02:00.000+13:00

Neo,

Do you believe, as do fundamentalists and theologically conservative Christians, that Moses was the person who wrote the Pentateuch? Or do you agree with the many scholars who see the Pentateuch, and the whole Hebrew Bible, as having been written/compiled quite late, perhaps totally in the post-exilic period? Do you agree with scholars who view the Tanakh as multi-sourced and utilizing sometimes quite different perspectives? Respectfully wondering.

Neo,Do you believe, as do fundamentalists and theo...

2007-02-28T04:01:00.000+13:00

Dennis:I admit I have never read any of Karen Arms...

2007-02-27T11:12:00.000+13:00

Dennis:

I admit I have never read any of Karen Armstrong's works. But I have a feeling that she follows the same tact that other scholars in this field follow.

They develop an evolutionary model for the Hebrew concept of God that asserts that El of the Hebrews was the lineal descendant of El of the Canaanites. According to Wikipedia:
"The word El appears in other northwest Semitic languages such as Phoenician and Aramaic."

So with a leap of presumption, Karen Armstrong suddenly has a complete etiology of God. She presumes that a linguistic nexus equates to a conceptual nexus. She can now tell you that the Hebrews adopted their God from the Canaanites and that he was a part of the Canaanite pantheon. In doing this, she errs greatly.

Just because the New Ager in the office next door and I both use the term "god", it does not mean that we are remotely referring to the same thing. An archeaologist from the year 3000 AD would be running down a rabbit trail if he tried to some how develop a theory that my concept of God was derived from the New Ager's concept of God or vice versa. Those of us here and now know that the concepts are almost mutally disjoint.

The only thing that the New Ager and I have in common is that we use the same language. We decidedly do not have the same God -- just the same word for God.

I like this statement. This is a note about one of her books from a favorable webpage: "According to (Karen) Armstrong, the biblical evidence suggests that the leader Moses convinced his people El and Yahweh were one and the same." That is a really odd way of stating it. Of course, Moses believed and taught they were one and the same. It is Karen Armstrong who assumes they were different. By making her arguments to be "truth", she manages to characterize Moses as religious con artist. Under the covers this is just our old friend "Begging the Question." The argument goes:

1) Karen is right.
2) Therefore, Moses is wrong.
3) Therefore, Karen is right.

-- Neo

"To Alan,Regarding Hebrews 4 and there yet remaini...

2007-02-27T07:33:00.000+13:00

"To Alan,

Regarding Hebrews 4 and there yet remaining a Sabbath rest to the people of God. Wonder which twisted version the pastor was using for this and did the pastor eventually give up the Sabbath?"

The pastor used Hebrews 4 as a proof text that the sabbath is still required. The text clearly doesn't say that. You simply cannot logically read that into the passage.

But again, this is hardly the only incident of misapplying scripture practiced routinely by the WCG. It was the rule rather than the exception, which you see if you take the time to read scriptures other than the suggested proof texts. Unfortunately, the church did an awesome job of planting the fear that I was incapable of reading the Bible without HWA's help. It's still ironic that HWA encouraged everyone to read the Bible for themselves, but once they did, and asked questions, condemned their interpretations.

"There is scriptural evidence for every one of the...

2007-02-27T06:24:00.000+13:00

"There is scriptural evidence for every one of the ten commandments before Sinai.

I further challenge any writer to show me in scripture any righteous man flagrantly disregarding the Sabbath, whether in the old testament or new testament.

One cannot find a word in the entire Bible denigrating the keeping of the Sabbath."

Ahhh... ya gotta love conditioned responses.

I just read through the comments here, and at time...

2007-02-26T14:53:00.000+13:00

I just read through the comments here, and at times I thought I was in a "WCG time warp"!

The very second comment had lussenheide exclaiming, "Bill claims that the 10 commandment law was NOT in force before Sinai. REALLY!?????..."

Is lussenheide really that out of touch with interpretations other than HWA's that he finds such an interpretation shocking?
Methinks he must live in a bubble to be shocked by what is not an uncommon interpretation.

Now, for brevity's sake I'll fast foreward to one of the last comments, where "anonymous" says, "It is amazing how we can never run of out alibis not to obey Him."

I'm assuming that "anonymous" meant excuses, instead if alibis, I had a flashback of being in church again, a cult-church where they had all the right answers and interpretations, and were so presumtuous as to cast a cold and damning eye on those who interpreted the Bible differently than them.

Lastly, when lussenheide said, "AW readers curiously enough fall into 7 groups..." it was flashback city!

I can't help but think of a lady who visited(she was still in an ACOG), and said "I just don't know how you can turn your back on God's Truth!"

I find it sad that some are unable to consider that others do try and do the right things, and try their best to understand things, rather than thinking they are simply rejecting God.

And I find it sad how the Armstrongian hubris and blind-sighted cultish condemnation of views "other than" still marches on.

Kerry

"I can't understand that. The 10 commandments does...

2007-02-26T05:43:00.000+13:00

"I can't understand that. The 10 commandments does not even contain a word that suggests the "carnage" you are alleging. I sense that you do not even fear God to be so bold as to make that brash statement. God Himself that His commandments are for our good (Deu.5:29]"

I was speaking of how the penalties for not obeying those who enforce such things are imposed. Have you ever watched a stoning on the internet? Have you ever watched slashing and spearing or beheading? Have you ever seen what those who win do to those who loose, or how those that plunder others do it? It could be any law. The problem is in how those with the power enforce it and the carnage they cause in doing so. The OT is not the cute sunday school story you were led to believe it was. It's God as portrayed by the enforcers in the bible I take exception to.

Kscribe wrote:What we need here is a discussion on...

2007-02-25T17:49:00.000+13:00

Kscribe wrote:

What we need here is a discussion on who gave the bible its authority.
Let us see how the Herbalist sabbath keepers, (using there superior knowledge and enlightenment) can explain to us all here on this blog how that authority came about! Many seem to think of themselves as scholars. Perhaps it is the P.I.S.S.on H.W.A. syndrome.
Psychotic Influence & Seductive Scholarship (owner & narcissist) Herbert W. Armstrong.

This is one step further - reject the authority of the Bible altogether. What absolute freedom!

Let's now worship with Apostle Richard Dawkins in the name of science.

Dennis said...The Big Ten are responsible for more...

2007-02-25T17:24:00.000+13:00

Dennis said...
The Big Ten are responsible for more carnage in the lives of real people at the hands of the righteous as any docement could ever be.
<<<

I can't understand that. The 10 commandments does not even contain a word that suggests the "carnage" you are alleging. I sense that you do not even fear God to be so bold as to make that brash statement. God Himself that His commandments are for our good (Deu.5:29]

I suggest that we go back to the "tutor" discussion, which is insructive but which had been misunderstood by some posters here.

What was the role of the "tutor"?

"To bring (or take) unto Christ" [Gal 3.24]

Strong's concordance explains that "tutor" (G3807 paidagōgos pahee-dag-o-gos') means a boy leader, that is, a servant whose
office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor [“paedagogue”]): - instructor, schoolmaster.

Does the 10 commandments "bring" or "take" to us Christ?

The 10 commandments does not "bring" or "take" or "carry" us to Christ. The 10 commandment does not even use the words "Christ" or "Jesus" or "savior".

This "tutor" is the "law ordained by the angels in the hands of a mediator" [Gal.3:19] (whereas the 10 commandments were spoken and written by God Himself) -- that literally forced and brought the Israelites unto Christ [as pictured the sacrificial lamb] with its rigid system of swift punishment.

This system of punishment [2 Cor.3] together with the "earthly sanctuary" and symbolism [figures] and the Levitical priesthood and rituals [Heb.10] is what we are no
longer under of. Not the Sabbath and the 10 commandments, which
Christ Himself said in no uncertain term, we must keep IF we want to "enter into life" [Mat.19:17]. This same Christ proclaims that it is they who keep God's commandments who will be granted right [privilege] to the "tree of life" [Rev.22.14].

Wiil we start believing Christ -- or will we continue to "wrest" Paul's difficult writings to our destructon?

It is amazing how we can never run of out alibis not to obey Him.

Gavin,What we need here is a discussion on who gav...

2007-02-25T16:18:00.000+13:00

Gavin,
What we need here is a discussion on who gave the bible its authority.
Let us see how the Herbalist sabbath keepers, (using there superior knowledge and enlightenment) can explain to us all here on this blog how that authority came about! Many seem to think of themselves as scholars. Perhaps it is the P.I.S.S.on H.W.A. syndrome.
Psychotic Influence & Seductive Scholarship (owner & narcissist) Herbert W. Armstrong.

Just a thought..
Kscribe.

>>>Dennis said... The Big Ten are responsible for ...

2007-02-25T15:44:00.000+13:00

>>>Dennis said...
The Big Ten are responsible for more carnage in the lives of real people at the hands of the righteous as any docement could ever be.
<<<

Dennis, that is priceless! Excellent points, all ten!

Now for those who embrace the 10 big ones, try this the next time your child is rebellious. "Call the elders" together and arrange for the stoning of your child. It is in "THE LAW!" And don't cry mom, it's Gods LAW!

Kscribe.

>>Saac's Son said... When you begin to study the h...

2007-02-25T15:31:00.000+13:00

>>Saac's Son said...
When you begin to study the history of the Bible, and start to realize where it came from, the whole concept of arguing over doctrine becomes a silly little exercise for small minds which have been focussed on the anthropomorphism of the primitives.<<

And that sir is the most logical statement I have read (besides my own mind you) on the subject of "bible keeping" in 21st century!

If people want to follow the writings of someone that claims to be Moses, let them. Hell, Gerald Flurry claims to be "That Pro$it." If people think he is, then let them follow...Baaaa

That black sheep in the family,
Kscribe.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. ;)This is off subje...

2007-02-25T11:49:00.000+13:00

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. ;)

This is off subject but somewhat
relevant, here is an article form
today's NY Times. The Religious
Right, i.e. the Evangelicals, are
trying to maintain their political
control. They want to continue to
rule over us.

Can they pull it off ... ?

February 25, 2007 NY Times
Christian Right Labors to Find ’08 Candidate
By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

WASHINGTON, Feb. 24 — A group of influential Christian conservatives and their allies emerged from a private meeting at a Florida resort this month dissatisfied with the Republican presidential field and uncertain where to turn.

The event was a meeting of the Council for National Policy, a secretive club whose few hundred members include Dr. James C. Dobson of Focus on the Family, the Rev. Jerry Falwell of Liberty University and Grover Norquist of Americans for Tax Reform. Although little known outside the conservative movement, the council has become a pivotal stop for Republican presidential primary hopefuls, including George W. Bush on the eve of his 1999 primary campaign.

But in a stark shift from the group’s influence under President Bush, the group risks relegation to the margins. Many of the conservatives who attended the event, held at the beginning of the month at the Ritz-Carlton on Amelia Island, Fla., said they were dismayed at the absence of a champion to carry their banner in the next election...

Neo...ha, Yes, I work with hands, elbows, forearm,...

2007-02-25T11:28:00.000+13:00

Neo...ha, Yes, I work with hands, elbows, forearm, fingers, knuckles and palms. Hot stones are a nice touch. I like the work. Perhaps it's karma. According to many, I was the cause for all their headaches...now I am the cure for my clients. So see, life is balanced and it all works out.

Dennis:Massage therapy? I know this helps a lot o...

2007-02-25T10:07:00.000+13:00

Dennis:

Massage therapy? I know this helps a lot of people but isn't it taking "working with your hands" to an extreme.

I heard Herbert W. deliver a sermon in the Field House in Big Sandy at the time of the Rebellion of 1974. A couple of ministers in Shreveport had left the WCG over GTAs activities and other issues. They both took up the work of window washing.

Herbert was disdainful of all of this and he stated blatantly that "it is a shame for an AC graduate to work with his hands." He made no apologies to the many manual laborers in the audience who supported his opulent lifestyle with their meager tithes. It was understood that AC grads were of a different class than the Great Unwashed sitting in the cheap sections towards the back of the Field House. It was all right for that class to do manual labor but not AC grads. I wonder how many blue collar HWA worshippers have any idea that he looked down upon their vocation with contempt?

He seemed to have forgotten that Jesus was a carpenter.

-- Neo

"Members: 17""Activity: Low activity"not unimpress...

2007-02-25T09:32:00.000+13:00

"Members: 17"
"Activity: Low activity"

not unimpressed...

How 'bout someone who I don't know call me tonight...

2007-02-25T09:29:00.000+13:00

How 'bout someone who I don't know call me tonight just to chat. Home alone...it's free... 864-905-5804
Oh and no annon. ones.

I bet no one calls! Been fun, heading home....

When any thinking minister, who studies well beyon...

2007-02-25T09:23:00.000+13:00

When any thinking minister, who studies well beyond his training, runs up against the need for sameness in literalism...this always follows. It's why all seasoned pastor types have two choices in a practical church setting. 1. Shut up and do the best you can as the Catholic Professor Raymond Brown did in his writing of The Birth and Death of the Messiah, which are classics. or...2. Get fired and adopt the life of vagabond theologian, change careers or teach in seminary.

This article originally ran in the February 3, 1984, issue of Christianity Today and is typical of the dilema...

"As one of the five founders of the Evangelical Theological Society, with a heavy heart I officially request that Dr. Robert Gundry submit his resignation, unless he retracts his position on the historical trustworthiness of Matthew's Gospel."

(Translation: He must unsee what he has seen.)

Thus Roger Nicole, professor of theology at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, brought to a decisive climax a controversy that has been brewing for several years in the 35-year-old society of evangelical scholars.

Standing at a microphone in the packed dining room on the ninth floor of the Spurgeon Harris Building on the campus of the Criswell Center for Biblical Studies in Dallas, Nicole was asking for the resignation of the bald, bespectacled, erudite professor of New Testament and Greek at Santa Barbara's Westmont College."

Tithes and structure trump truth everytime. The fact is that theology needs the liberal to go out on a limb to see if the limb is strong enough not to fall and hurt someone....However, when the limb checker returns..he is usually pushed out of the tree for his trouble. Most churches just allow the limbs to fall, kill or maime a few members and then ask, "what limb?"
(PS..I am not making any analogies about own situation. I am glad to be out of fundamentalism and would have no matter which I had originally fallen under. There is little room in most churches for someone who has come to my conclusions).

"Once the child was of age (mature) the services o...

2007-02-25T08:32:00.000+13:00

"Once the child was of age (mature) the services of the paidagogos were no longer necessary or required"

Excellent post. But get ready...while "nanny" might be a better translation...analogizers will say, "well yeah, so what? The Nanny represents the Father's wishes for the kids, when he is not around and trains the children to obey him and house rules. Once daddy comes back, the nanny leaves but the house rules still stick"..in faith of course, thru Jesus and the church, whatever that means....amen.

Paul had his moments with faulty and shoody analogies that he both screwed up and tripped over himself. I love his idea that we KNOW what the OT means by "the promise is to you and your seed." (meaning in fact that God's promise was to Abraham and his decendents). Paul says it obviously means "that seed was Christ" because the OT does not say "seeds." in the plural. I doubt it would be worded in the OT.."the promise is to you and your seeds," to avoid any mistake that "seeds" would have to be said and not "Seed" to avoid one thinking it was singular. The OT verse Paul uses had nothing to do with promises being about Jesus.

Paul may have been endeavoring to sound like a Pharisee, but they don't reason in their training with such imprecision. It's like saying, "feed my sheep" means feed Jesus because if it meant others, it would say "feed my sheeps" after all, sheeps is the plural of sheep, just as seeds is the plural of seed. I bought a bag of bird seed once and it only had one seed in the bag...:)

Paul does even more miraclulous analogy slaugher with Sarah and Haggar, but I spare you.

"Gal 3:16 Paul write concerning the Abraham story:

"Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and his seed.
He does not say, "And to seeds," as refering to many,
but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is Christ"

In reality, the seed referred to in the OT was that of Abraham and had nothing to do with a Jesus four thousand years later.

Paul, as others in the Gospels, may have been using Midrash, which is a way of mining the OT to explain either what one can't or has no realtime information about.

All of Matthew's "and thus it was fulfilleds" are Midrash and overreaching in his case to come up with a story of Jesus...a story he knew precious little about in real time. Like Paul after him, "Matthew" mined the OT for scriptures that could be adjusted to explain Jesus in the New. It does not mean what is said is literally true or was a real event time and space.

If the average fundamentalist or Evangelical minister knew about Midrash and could explain it without a riot to a congregation, it would be a great "aha" moment. Not to worry though...too scary.

Sorry, got off topic

Paidagogos, wrongly translated "tutor" only becaus...

2007-02-25T07:24:00.000+13:00

Paidagogos, wrongly translated "tutor" only because there is no English equivalent, was not a teacher or instructor, but one who accompanied the child to and from the house, wherever the child was to go, including to a teacher. The paidagogos applied punishment when necessary, and also kept him safe. Once the child was of age (mature) the services of the paidagogos were no longer necessary or required.

SPIRITUAL PERVERTS IGNORE THE SABBATHThe people wh...

2007-02-25T07:04:00.000+13:00

SPIRITUAL PERVERTS IGNORE THE SABBATH

The people who like the changes that the Worldwide Church of God is making away from the biblical Sabbath have all sorts of crazy, nonsensical arguments against the Sabbath. They ignore the simple fact that God created it in Old Testament times according to Genesis, and that Jesus observed it in New Testament times and said that it was made for man.

I noticed that the Sabbath-breaking sinners like to talk a lot about what they call "love."
Well, I worked for a number of years at a factory with some rather unsavory characters, and anyone who wants me to do that seven days a week is a PERVERT and is NOT SHOWING ME ENOUGH LOVE.

"But after faith has come, we ARE no longer under ...

2007-02-25T06:50:00.000+13:00

"But after faith has come, we ARE no longer under a tutor."

yes, exactly!....once faith has come, we are no longer under the authority of the tutor, but that does not negate anything the tutor taught us...

the tutor no longer has the authority to punish us, but everything it taught is still valid.

and when we come to God in faith, we continue in what the tutor taught us....if we discard what we were taught, we are no longer in faith....

it's all quite simple actually.

oops.website down.

2007-02-25T06:03:00.000+13:00

oops.website down.