Comments on Ambassador Watch: Transparent English Bible

NB - Thanks for your post. Here I'll quote my fath...

2007-09-25T07:31:00.000+12:00

NB - Thanks for your post. Here I'll quote my father's book "Restoring the original Bible."

There is no doubt that the world has the complete Bible in its midst.
One of them is the beloved King James' Version published in 1611. There
have been many other complete versions produced over the last 100 years.
So, why do we need a “Restoring of the Original Bible”? The fact is,
there needs to be a drastic revision within all Bible translations and
versions (and that means all Bibles in existence no matter in what
languages they have been published). Truly, there is not a Bible on the
market today which follows the arrangement of the earliest manuscripts.
One might think that such a state of affairs could not exist, but it
does. Publishers have assiduously neglected to produce a complete Bible
which positions the books in the correct manuscript order. The outcome
has been a mass of Bible translations and versions which are literally
topsy-turvy in their design and arrangement.

One might at first glance dismiss this infraction as being of minor
consequence. But this represents a prime misjudgment when anyone looks
seriously at the issue. In truth, the Bible of the manuscripts has all
its divisions, parts and order of books in a symmetrical balance which
shows a harmonious story-flow from beginning to end. But theologians and
publishers have abandoned all attempts to restore this Bible to the
general public. Look at it this way. Suppose you bought a novel
containing 49 chapters which introduced the various characters and plot
in a progressive way from start to finish. Would it not be difficult to
understand what the plot was all about if, in the first 22 chapters,
chapter 16 followed immediately after chapter 6, and especially if the
chapters were not properly numbered? What then if chapter 22 were placed
after chapter 7, chapter 22 before 21, chapter 14 after 21, chapters 12
and 13 followed 14, chapter 18 positioned after 13, chapter 17 followed
8 and 9, chapter 20 after 10, and finally chapter 11 came after chapter
20? This would represent utter confusion. But if one reckons the
chapters of our hypothetical novel as being the books of the Old
Testament, this is the exact sequence we are saddled with in our present
Bibles.

Let's not stop with the Old Testament. Look at what has happened when we
add the 27 New Testament books. Return once more to the illustration of
our novel. It means that chapters 23 to 27 follow immediately after
chapter 11. Chapters 28 to 34 are found after chapter 44, while chapter
44 itself follows chapter 48, and chapters 35 to 43 are positioned after
chapter 27. This is further confusion.

Some might say, however, that a comparison of the Bible with a novel is
not proper. But this is exactly where the first mistake is made in
appreciating the manuscript order of the biblical documents. It will be
shown in this book that there is a definite weaving together of a single
story theme through the biblical books. And it is a remarkably
consistent account which often amazes people when they see it for the
first time. The only reason that such a homogeneous narrative has not
been recognized by most people today is because none of our published
Bibles has the books of the Old and New Testaments in the original
manuscript order. When the proper design is restored, a marvelous and
revealing series of connected subjects is seen running through the Bible
which illustrates a compatible and coherent account from beginning to
end. This book will reveal some of those amazing relationships which
exist between and among the various books. This information may well
prove to be an eye- opener to many students of the Bible—facts that have
never been realized before.

Other matters are considered in the body of this book. It will be seen
that the responsibility for canonizing the New Testament fell to the
apostles themselves. It was they who had the authority to write and
collect the various books of the New Testament, and that two apostles in
particular were given the special assignment of formulating the New
Testament into a complete and final canon. It will also be shown that
the original number of both the Old and New Testament books should be
reckoned as 49—not the 66 that we have in our modern Bibles. The present
enumeration reflects a numerical pattern which is very foreign to the
original. Indeed, some Bibles even have an extra eleven (and some
fourteen) books included in their contents. This divergence represents
an abandonment of the original number and arrangement of the books.

The subject of this book is almost like an adventure story—a story of
re-discovery. Yet, in actual fact, looking at the New Testament alone,
this book contains not one bit of new evidence (regarding the manuscript
order of the biblical books) that has not been known by New Testament
textual scholars for over a century and a half. It is an incredible
circumstance that most readers of the Bible are totally ignorant of this
evidence (and this includes most preachers, evangelists, priests and
even theologians). Such proof has long been in the hands of scholars who
have professionally dealt with the New Testament manuscripts, but even
here, not one attempt has been made to provide the English speaking
world with a complete Bible which follows the manuscripts of the Old and
New Testaments. It is even rare that the introductions to any English
version deem it necessary to inform the general public what the
manuscript order really is, and even then it is usually a brief and
inconsequential reference that the reader would hardly think
significant. The situation is best described as being in a sad state of
affairs. Indeed, in comparing the original manuscript arrangement of the
Old and New Testament books, our modern versions are in utter shambles.
This chaos in respect to the manuscript order of the biblical books
needs rectifying. It is time that the world be presented with the real
“Manuscript Version of the Bible.” Publishing such a work would provide
a proper canon of the Bible. The word “canon” means rule or standard.
But it is a fact that there is no version being published today that
resembles the canonical Bible of the manuscripts (and this includes the
most prestigious of the modern versions). But why not? Should not
Christians want to perpetuate the biblical canon devised by the men who
formed it? Yes, this is what the world desperately needs. Such a version
(the proper one) is long overdue. (Introduction to Restoring the Original Bible by Ernest Martin)

As for the correct order, my father advocates for the following order with lots of evidence.

Old Testament

this is the order that Christ advocated as "the
Scriptures" (Luke 24:44,45). The Hebrew manuscript order is as follows:

I. THE LAW (TORAH) 1) Genesis 2) Exodus 3) Leviticus 4)
Numbers 5) Deuteronomy II.

THE PROPHETS 6) Joshua and Judges [but reckoned as two separate books by the Jews after the second century] 7)
The Book of Kingdoms (Samuel and Kings) [but reckoned as two separate books by the Jews after the second century] 8) Isaiah 9) Jeremiah
10) Ezekiel 11) The Twelve (Hosea to Malachi) [always reckoned as one
book by the Jews]

III. THE HOLY WRITINGS (or THE PSALMS because it was the first book in the collection in this "Royal Division") 12) The
Psalms 13) The Proverbs 14) Job 15) Song of Songs 16) Ruth 17)
Lamentations 18) Ecclesiastes 19) Esther 20) Daniel 21)
Ezra-Nehemiah [reckoned as one book by the Jews] 22) The Book of
Chronicles [reckoned as one book by the Jews]

The New Testament

Here is the comment of Professor Caspar R. Gregory in A.D.1907. "The
order in which we place the books of the New Testament is not a matter
of indifference. Every Christian should be familiar with these books,
and should know precisely where to find each book. Every New Testament
should have the books in precisely the same order, the order of the
Greek Church, which in this case is of right the guardian of this
ancient literature [see Romans 3:1,2]. The proper order is, I think:
First, the Four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Second, the Book
of Acts. Third, the Catholic Epistles: James, First and Second Peter,
First, Second, and Third John, and Jude. Fourth, the Epistles of Paul:
Romans, First and Second Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians,
Colossians, First and Second Thessalonians, Hebrews, First and Second
Timothy, Titus, Philemon. And fifth, the Book of Revelation ... The
Greek order is that which places the Epistle to the Hebrews between
Thessalonians and Timothy, and that is the order to which we should
hold. The Latin order [of Jerome] places Hebrews after Philemon. But we
must keep to the old order or weshall have the New Testament turned
upside down inconnection with every fancied discovery as to
authorship and date of books."

(Canon and Text of the New Testament, pp.467–469

Here are the comments of Professors Westcott & Hort in A.D.1881. "We
have followed recent editors [in their official Greek text of the New
Testament meant for scholars] in abandoning the Hieronymic order [the
arrangement of Jerome], familiar in modern Europe through the influence
of the Latin Vulgate, in favour of the order most highly recommended by
various Greek authority of the fourth century, the earliest time when we
have distinct evidence of the completed Canon as it now stands. It
differs from the Hieronymic [Jerome's] order in two respects. First, the
Acts are immediately followed by the Catholic Epistles. The connexion
between these two portions, commended by its intrinsic appropriateness,
is preserved in a large proportion of Greek manuscripts of all ages, and
corresponds to marked affinities of textual history. This connexion is
not sacrificed in the arrangement found in the Sinai manuscript and
elsewhere, by which the Pauline Epistles are placed next to the Gospels.
The Sinaitic order has the undoubted advantage of keeping together those
books of the New Testament which were most decisively invested with a
scriptural character in the earlier ages. But there is a manifest
incongruity in placing the Acts in the midst of the Epistles; and
moreover, since the choice lies between what are after all only rival
traditions, strong reasons would be needed to justify us in forsaking
the highest ancient Greek authority, in accordance with which the
Pauline Epistles stand after the Catholic Epistles. Secondly, the
Epistle to the Hebrews stands before the Pastoral Epistles [of Paul]. It
is certainly not satisfactory to ourselves personally to separate what
we believe to be genuine writings of St Paul from the bulk of his works
by an epistle in which we cannot recognize his authorship. But no
violence has, we trust, been here done to truth in deferring throughout
to the most eminent precedent, since the Epistle to the Hebrews is on
all hands acknowledged as in some sense Pauline, and St Paul's epistles
addressed to single persons [the four Pastoral Epistles: I & II Timothy,
Titus, Philemon] may very well be placed by themselves. We have
therefore been content to indicate the existence of three groups in the
table prefixed to the whole Pauline collection [the nine epistles to the
Seven Churches of Paul, the Book of Hebrews, and the Pastoral
Epistles]."

(Introduction to the New Testament in the Original Greek,
pp.320,321 words in brackets are mine) appendix two

These quotes are from Chapter One of Restoring the Original Bible.

Samuel Martin
Jerusalem Israel

If God left a videotape, what language should it b...

2007-09-24T03:34:00.000+12:00

If God left a videotape, what language should it be in?

And, wouldn't it still be an induction from effects - a videotape - to God's existence?

Stinger, As you know, I was always the agnostic. ...

2007-09-23T19:09:00.000+12:00

Stinger,

As you know, I was always the agnostic. But, you are a deist, and have a well-defined "Walton's Mountain" concept of God.

I've recently begun believing in God, once again, but believe that, like the wind, you ascertain where He has been working through the effects in people's lives. It doesn't seem to have a heck of a lot to do with legalism, or the Bible per se, either. God seems to help many of the people whom I'd diagnosed as being hopeless after attempting unsuccessfully to assist them myself.

As we both expected, this has nothing to do with the ACOGs or H-wA! I don't know where this new oddyssey is going to take me, but for the moment it is just nice not to feel like a lost soul. As a deist, you probably never felt totally lost, but I certainly did.
Hope all is well on Walton's Mountain!

BB

B-B said:Why would such a God, presumably far more...

2007-09-22T23:22:00.000+12:00

B-B said:

Why would such a God, presumably far more intelligent than any human, leave a book behind to do His job for Him?

Very good question! And one I've been asking myself for years. You would think with all the technology that the Master of the Universe has he at least would leave us all a video, or something. And a machine or two to play it on.

Or, just as a safe guard against the greedy & lying priests, who would try to alter the tape, or translate it for us into another book and then destroy the machines, how about a YooTube presentation? That way we could all judge for ourselves as to what the video is telling us.

Hell, I'd even settle for a set of golden plates, ala Joseph Smith style. But the plates would need to be available to all scholars (something Peeping Joe never could produce) for inspection.

Instead, we have this collection of ancient books, written in a long dead language of various dialects, by diverse and unknown authors over several centuries, and we expect this to be the final say for all time on matters of ethics and religion. Yeah, like the guys say in that Guinness Beer commercial, "Brilliant!"

And not only don't we know what books are supposed to be in this sacred collection, we don't even know their original intended order (as if that really matters). Shoot, if we really wanted to get "authentic" here, we would be reading them from right to left, starting from the "back" cover.

Oops! I better not give the wacky cult masters out there any new ideas for "better" bible study.

it has become very fashionable for former WCG memb...

2007-09-22T16:22:00.000+12:00

it has become very fashionable for former WCG members to blame HWA for every tragedy that has befallen them

Just as it became very fashionable for Scripture to blame evil on Satan the Devil.

I appreciate that it has become very fashionable f...

2007-09-22T16:11:00.000+12:00

I appreciate that it has become very fashionable for former WCG members to blame HWA for every tragedy that has befallen them, and it will continue until death snatches them away.

Depraved indifference is a crime.

I suggested you check you diction.That's hilarious...

2007-09-22T15:45:00.000+12:00

I suggested you check you diction.

That's hilarious. It's really funny to see someone so clueless posting here.

How does one reconcile a 6 billion year old earth,...

2007-09-22T15:32:00.000+12:00

How does one reconcile a 6 billion year old earth, a 15 billion year old universe, and the slow development of life on earth, including that of man, with 6 precise days of creation? It cannot be done in King James English

It can't be done in Hebrew either.

But if it can be done in Hebrew, then it can be done in King James English too, or even modern English.

how on earth does the order of appearance affect a...

2007-09-22T15:30:00.000+12:00

how on earth does the order of appearance affect anything?
it's a collection of books, does it matter which one comes ahead of another in the volume?

Is that a serious question? So, what order a person reads a collection of stories is unimportant, and has no effect on the overall impressions one gleans and the interpretations one might reach about the stories?

The Bible is not a set of encyclopedias, you know.

Of course, there is absolutely no way to prove what the "original order" of the biblical books was . . . assuming there ever was just one original order.

"We would like to offer some suggestions for Pasto...

2007-09-22T13:56:00.000+12:00

"We would like to offer some suggestions for Pastor Penman...."

I have an idea:

Penman could spend tithe dollars (you don't seriously think this guy has a day job, do you?) trying to reconcile DNA evidence with Star Wars.

Paul

Perhaps the newly formed Ambassador College could ...

2007-09-22T13:47:00.000+12:00

Perhaps the newly formed Ambassador College could award NZ Senior Pastor, Kinnear Penman, a scholarship to enable him to research the link between ancient Israeli and modern British DNA.

The fruits of his scholarship would be considered groundbreaking, and he would receive,I am sure, plaudits from the religious establishment for his conclusions.

Who knows,as an aftermath of his paper,he could be awarded a chair at Ambassador,to pass his erudition and research on to bright and upcoming young minds.

It could be called the Herbert Armstrong Memorial Chair of Britam.

Sergio

jdschroeder said... Humanity has two sources of...

2007-09-22T13:11:00.000+12:00

jdschroeder said...

Humanity has two sources of knowledge: Nature and Revelation. Nature embraces all that can be known from the sciences, humanities, arts, etc. Revelation consists fundamentally of the Torah of Moses, with the rest of Holy Writ being added with Torah as the benchmark. When Christianity appeared, so did the haggling over whose Bible is THE Bible, whether Catholic, Protestant, Ethiopian, or what have you, with each of these bibles sharing one body of work, the canonical Hebrew Scriptures, and differing in content throughout the rest. Sigh.

Dr. Tabor is endeavoring to present a literal translation of an ancient Hebrew text, which, if truly inspired of God must be compatible with the fossil record, with Relativity, and with all the developing knowledge of the cosmos in its phenomenal grandeur. No such translation can compete with either the matchless prose of the KJV, or even the more accessible modern translations. The Tabor type of Bible is not so much about the marketplace as about giving Genuine Biblical access to serious students who lack Dr. Tabor's rich background in Biblical Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. He is not going it alone, by the way, and has enlisted men of the highest qualifications to critique his work every step of the way.

How does one reconcile a 6 billion year old earth, a 15 billion year old universe, and the slow development of life on earth, including that of man, with 6 precise days of creation? It cannot be done in King James English -- but it can be done by utilizing all the potential hidden in the ancient Hebrew text. This potential cannot be expressed in Shakespearean prose; there's simply too much there, including the extremely important jots and tittles.

Will Dr. Tabor's translation reveal the complete potential of the Hebrew text? Of course not -- but it will help immensely by supplying a rich dimension of textual potential that none of us has been able to access so easily, in the English language, before now.

Dr. Tabor deserves high praise for his endeavors. He is enriching all of us. Where we might disagree with his scholarship and opinions, America herself deserves the praise for insisting that we all have a right to be heard.

I need this new Bible, can't wait for it to reach the bookshelves.

Sat Sep 22, 10:07:00 AM NZST

Sat Sep 22, 10:22:00 AM NZST

Living Church Of God should have released a paper ...

2007-09-22T10:43:00.000+12:00

Living Church Of God should have released a paper by now about the scientific evidence for British-Israel origins.

We must ask why? Is it in the too-hard basket,or is it because they secretly know their teachings are baseless,and are used to extract money from the poor and mindless sheep who follow them.

Living seems not to have cottoned onto the real meaning of Matt 6:33,such is their paucity of true intellectual resources.Imagine if Living followed the command of Christ to leave the income up to him....they might starve because he might just not recognise Living as one of his own.

Robert

"...it will put the books in the right order as we...

2007-09-22T10:30:00.000+12:00

"...it will put the books in the right order as well, which will no doubt cause many in the Christian world to start asking more questions about the Bible."

how on earth does the order of appearance affect anything?
it's a collection of books, does it matter which one comes ahead of another in the volume?

We would like to offer some suggestions for Pastor...

2007-09-22T10:28:00.000+12:00

We would like to offer some suggestions for Pastor Penman.

He should write the Royal Archivist at Buckingham Palace for corroboration that Queen Elizabeth is indeed related to Zedekiah,the last king of Judah.

I am sure that John Keyser who has dealt with Trojan beginnings would be only too pleased to assist.

Perhaps Yair Davidy could offer some suggestions as well.His websites are chock-full of facts.

And lastly,Stephen Collins could be another valuable source of information.

Believer

2007-09-22T10:22:00.000+12:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

How could Kinnear not accept this plum assignment?...

2007-09-22T10:20:00.000+12:00

How could Kinnear not accept this plum assignment?

It is the dream of every Living minister,I am sure.

We here in the States have all sorts of legends about our racial origins and Barry Fell with his book "America BC" runs pretty close to the truth.

We encourage Kinnear in his research and trust that Rod Meredith will give him financial support for same,and maybe a Sabbatical,as well.

Heinie

Any church that puffs and blows about ancestral be...

2007-09-22T10:16:00.000+12:00

Any church that puffs and blows about ancestral beginnings should be able to back it up with firm and hard scientific evidence.Otherwise,their teachings are nothing but a crock, and they are seen for the hypocrites that they really are.

Let's face it,with Living it is all about mind control over the masses which,of course enhances the the swaggering bragadaccio of their ministers and inflates the cubic capacity of their already enlarged brain cases.

John

We trust that Penman accepts this once-in-a-lifeti...

2007-09-22T10:08:00.000+12:00

We trust that Penman accepts this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to enhance his standing within his church,and also, those of the other splinter COG groups.

This would be an accolade for him and his church.

Gabriel

2007-09-22T10:07:00.000+12:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

"Kinnear Penman,senior pastor to the Living Church...

2007-09-22T09:27:00.000+12:00

"Kinnear Penman,senior pastor to the Living Church of God in New Zealand has been offered an opportunity to write a paper reconciling DNA with his church's British-Israel type ideology."

Possible Outcomes:

1. Penman lambasts genetic testing as "worldly" and unreliable. Keeps job.

2. Penman admits, in the face of genetic testing, that the BI theory is false. Loses job.

3. Penman admits that the DNA evidence seems to refute BI, but will laughably (and in the most convoluted manner)come to the conclusion that it actually supports BI. Keeps job, but is viewed with suspicion by HQ as an "egghead."

Paul

Samuel, what is the right order? The first NT boo...

2007-09-22T09:20:00.000+12:00

Samuel, what is the right order? The first NT book to be written according to most NT scholars was 1 Thessalonians. The first gospel - Mark - came much later (although I think your dad held out against "Marcan priority" and argued that Matthew was earlier.) Will the TEB get this radical?

There's also a consensus among OT scholars that Genesis wasn't the first book to be written, but comes in its present form from the early part of the Second Temple period. Will TEB shuffle these around too? I doubt it.

The point is there is no agreed order beyond conflicting traditions and speculative scholarship. In an age of electronic texts I really don't see that the page order will make much difference anyway.

BREAKING NEWSKinnear Penman,senior pastor to the L...

2007-09-22T09:15:00.000+12:00

BREAKING NEWS

Kinnear Penman,senior pastor to the Living Church of God in New Zealand has been offered an opportunity to write a paper reconciling DNA with his church's British-Israel type ideology.

Such a paper would make a valuable addition to Living's archival resources and would possibly bring promotion for Kinnear within his church.

Of course,an initial sermon on this subject,delivered at the forthcoming Feast in NZ,could well be the template for such a paper.

We trust that Kinnear takes up this opportunity, and we look forward to reading the fruit of his scholarly endeavours.

And,I am sure that Gavin would give gracious permission for such a paper to be published in full on his blogsite.

A Nonnie Mouse

Byker Bob said........I've come to believe that ju...

2007-09-22T07:19:00.000+12:00

Byker Bob said...

.....I've come to believe that just about the only reliable precept you can glean from the Bible is actually a paraphrase, or may have even originated with Buddha. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

AMEN Byker Bob! You shall ascend to ride upon that glorious Harley Davidson panhead on high! Can I get a witness?

I think one of the important things that is being ...

2007-09-22T06:41:00.000+12:00

I think one of the important things that is being passed over is the issue of the order of the books that my father advocated for in his book "restoring the original Bible." Not only will the original bible project produce a first class scholarly work, it will put the books in the right order as well, which will no doubt cause many in the Christian world to start asking more questions about the Bible.

Samuel Martin