Comments on Ambassador Watch: From the original AW: Tkach's death grip on the church

"I am confused after all these years; what do...

2010-01-09T17:39:09.098+13:00

"I am confused after all these years; what does "get the church back on track" precisely mean?"

"Let me beat you poor and starving foolish things up about how broken and evil and guilty you are, as a diversion from Garner Ted threatening to reveal my incest problem, and from the receivership scandal at the same time! Two birds with one stone, the Des Moines ad-man hasn't lost his (bad)touch yet!"

Read the letters. Particularly the June 24, 1979 letter. Also search "back on track", or start reading from about '73 onwards. (There's a lot of "We never set dates, brethren!" backpedaling from that point forward as well.)

"Not everyone is deliriously happy with GCI l...

2010-01-09T04:01:31.222+13:00

"Not everyone is deliriously happy with GCI leadership as you disingenuously suggest."

2010 - the year the Wallenites strike back?

Criticism does work; while still living very lavis...

2010-01-09T03:03:35.760+13:00

Criticism does work; while still living very lavish lifestyles, GCI executive pay is falling:

HWA: $750k/y
JWTsr:$500k/yr
JWTjr:$180k/yr

I am confused after all these years; what does &qu...

2010-01-09T03:02:52.254+13:00

I am confused after all these years; what does "get the church back on track" precisely mean?

"I've heard from several would-be candida...

2010-01-09T01:56:12.841+13:00

"I've heard from several would-be candidates (in our minds) that none of them want to be the President."

And that's exactly right! There is NO ONE in their right mind, who would want the position. (Not that someone out of their mind won't want it.)

It's like the husband who announced to his wife that she was NOTHING and He was the "King around here"

To which she responded, "Then you are the KING of nothing."

Mary B., Not everyone is deliriously happy with ...

2010-01-08T19:04:51.163+13:00

Mary B.,

Not everyone is deliriously happy with GCI leadership as you disingenuously suggest.

They are not happy with secret finances or your president for life if you like it or not.

"I've heard from several would-be candidates (in our minds) that none of them want to be the President. "

If they did openly admit to wanting his job, how long would it take Tkach to eliminate those rivals?

Joe is the husband of GCI…he gave her the new name...

2010-01-08T18:26:48.762+13:00

Joe is the husband of GCI…he gave her the new name….proclaimed before the alter to cherish her….and now it’s until death they do part……who’s death comes first….we have to wait and see.

Just like many a modern husband…..it’s promises….. promises…..promises ….. until the honeymoon is over and the Champagne has lost it’s bubbles.

Anoneemoose

"So until there seems to be a someone who is ...

2010-01-08T15:53:40.761+13:00

"So until there seems to be a someone who is gifted, talented and wants to assume the leadership role, I suspect not much will change."

Or until God puts someone in the position to really get the church back on track.

To Mary B, Mary, I was once a member of Worldwide...

2010-01-08T11:59:28.861+13:00

To Mary B,

Mary, I was once a member of Worldwide..penal servitude.But I saw the light.

I have 2 cousins who are professors of theology at a Scandinavian university.Another professor of theology died in 2003.

I descend from the Rudbeck family of Uppsala who provided four bishops to Sweden and two professors of theology.

The Hillestroms,another branch of the family provided another bishop.

An uncle,however many greats,Petrus Kenicius, was an archbishop of Sweden.

Their theology contradicts Joe's.

It surprises me that you are willing to follow the beggarly elements of theology instead of wiseing up and choosing something a bit more upmarket.

Joe is a fraud: why don't you wake up to this fact?

Yes,Mary,Joe is only in it for the money and his theology is most suspect.

Your acuity in many departments needs enhancing,otherwise you wouldn't be following that charlatan Jo Tkach.

Oh, incidentally,the Russain meaning of his name is quite apt.

Jorgheinz

I think one of the problems is that at GCI, no one...

2010-01-08T11:29:16.197+13:00

I think one of the problems is that at GCI, no one is clamoring to take over Joe's position.

I've heard from several would-be candidates (in our minds) that none of them want to be the President. I realize that is different than most of the other COGs.

So until there seems to be a someone who is gifted, talented and wants to assume the leadership role, I suspect not much will change.

Mary B. I don't see the criticisms as "s...

2010-01-08T11:23:57.638+13:00

Mary B.

I don't see the criticisms as "so yesterday".

Financial accountability isn't that hard to do, look at how many other churches do it.

The criticism can be stopped so easily. Open the books Joe. Tear down that wall.

anonSeven21

Sorry Mary, sounds like "Joe's way or the...

2010-01-08T11:04:02.593+13:00

Sorry Mary, sounds like "Joe's way or the highway" to me. Passive participation. You've handed responsibility over. Worse, you've given Joe a blank cheque; carte blanche.

Maybe it's as someone has observed before: all those with get-up-and-go have got up and gone...

Gavis said... Well Mary, that's the point. You...

2010-01-08T10:55:44.687+13:00

Gavis said... Well Mary, that's the point. You didn't exercise any "right to organize in the way we feel most appropriate." The organization model was inherited from Herbert W. Armstrong.

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Gavin, every week we exercise our right to organize in the way we feel most appropriate by continuing to actively support GCI. If we are not pleased, we CAN vote with our feet and our wallets. But we are highly pleased with our leadership. The arguments you state here are so yesterday.

Gavin, Joe's hide is not the only part of his...

2010-01-08T10:37:58.599+13:00

Gavin,

Joe's hide is not the only part of his anatomy that is apparently thick,oops insensitive.

But let's have a "be kind to Joe day" though he hardly deserves it.

He is possibly deceived as we see in Matt 24:5.But he is also smart.He knows a money winner when he sees it,though one makes a distinction between cunning and native IQ.

Mary B needs the scales removed from her eyes...it is her ilk that keep Joe in power.Take away Joe's funding and then let him scramble.Unfortunately,this will not likely happen,as there are always any number of suckers willing to contribute to Joe's cause.Some people are like the prize bull at the county fair...led around by a nose ring.

Jorgheinz

Those who counsel others to "leave it up to G...

2010-01-08T10:11:43.317+13:00

Those who counsel others to "leave it up to God" or say that "God will hold them responsible," are really saying, "Aw come on, we like it this way and don't want any changes..." They know full well there is little chance that any kind of correction is coming from the Deity.

"If I am wrong...GOD will correct me." That's another way of saying, "Don't question me, I am not killing this Golden Goose."

Yes, just leave it up to God. Sit on your hands, h...

2010-01-08T09:15:42.512+13:00

Yes, just leave it up to God. Sit on your hands, hum a little hymn tune. So what if there's suffering now - can't do nuthin' - leave it up to God.

Injustice? Whataya want ME to do, leave it up to God. Hungry people, persecuted people? Very sad, "thy kingdom come," just pass me the TV Guide.

Some jerk takes over the church as a prize from his daddy? Leave it up to God. God will take care of it. Maybe not now, maybe next Tuesday, or next year. Not my problem. He won't open up the books to scrutiny? Leave it up to God.

Now go away and quit bothering me. Where IS that TV Guide?!

Anon 02:58 said, "But, that's not in my d...

2010-01-08T08:59:50.962+13:00

Anon 02:58 said,
"But, that's not in my department and its best left to God who will masterfully perform the task on his time table."

What a novel idea! Wish I had thought of that.

This brings back all my memories from the 60's...

2010-01-08T08:11:10.417+13:00

This brings back all my memories from the 60's, when I attended SEP in Minnesota. There was always the "class" system, the Pasadena, Ambassador/Imperial Schools students and then there was the rest of us, all from around the country. Only the best and beautiful from Pasadena got to be speed boat drivers, or swimming instructors. The kitchen crew was divided up as well, the Imperial School bunch on one side of the worker dorm, the "commoner" kids on the other. We were constantly bombarded with their priviledges, and the rules bent in their favor. So it stands to reason that when you're raised in this manner,as Joe Jr. did, you indeed become arrogant and insolent. Like so many politicians in Washington, the heirarchy in California have never had to do without, and have never had to see how we all have to live. Just like America will never have an "Everyman" for President, the GCI will never ever care about it's members, as long as the $ keeps them in the lifestyle that they've come to expect.

Well Mary, that's the point. You didn't ex...

2010-01-08T07:22:19.565+13:00

Well Mary, that's the point. You didn't exercise any "right to organize in the way we feel most appropriate." The organization model was inherited from Herbert W. Armstrong.

The funny thing is that Armstrong maintained the fiction that some sort of representative structure existed right through till the receivership. We know that because of references in legal documents to member meetings and votes that were never held - they were pure fiction. Hence the "episcopal" model which was hastily introduced - a "corporate sole" based on the Roman Catholic model - for purely legal reasons: to evade accountability.

Are you really happy with a "president for life"? Are you really satisfied with the lack of financial accountability? Are you truly OK with the reality that Glendora can do what it likes without having a robust system of checks and balances?

If you are, well, I guess you deserve what you've got.

Gavin, Almost everyone at GCI is very, very pleas...

2010-01-08T06:40:10.713+13:00

Gavin,

Almost everyone at GCI is very, very pleased with our leadership. Kindly refrain from your arbitrary assessments of the "proper" form of church government. Or at least recognize that it is our right to organize in the way we feel most appropriate.

Well, I'm not exactly sure how the Baptist chu...

2010-01-08T06:23:40.375+13:00

Well, I'm not exactly sure how the Baptist church I attended as a kid was structured but I'm pretty sure it was a case of a somewhat privately held organization, as the pastor started with a storefront.

I'm assuming that Joe no longer believes in, or fears god and, therefore, any divine retribution. As I feel the same way, I can't blame him for his death-grip on all that money. Why not see if you can't kick up the Armstrong life-style another notch?

The fact that some of it is/was my money? Ahhh, I've gotten over that a long time ago. I consider it tuition in the school of reality.

I have no idea what is in the mind of a man like J...

2010-01-08T05:20:14.097+13:00

I have no idea what is in the mind of a man like Joe Jr. I thought I knew him at one time. I have wondered how he sleeps at night surely knowing all the heartache caused has far outweighed any "Jesus saved us" recognitions.

The reason we are here on AW is due to the sense that we know they got "away with it." Whatever that means. Paid Ministers have been successfully jettisoned. Local wannabe's have been rewarded and do what they are told without pay. Women get a bit of a bone as well for their trouble and the few at the top keep all the gold. Perfect.....

It's been more than ten years since realizing I made a very bad mistake and career choice thinking somehow that a god was involved with calling me into the ministry of an organization that made sense to me a long time ago and used the whole bible to teach what the story really was. We were all young. We had to be there I guess.

I know full well what I no longer believe because of this experience.

My mantra is "I don't know." and it's ok not to know. Buddhism says, "He who says, does not know. He who knows, does not say." Seem more righ to me.

Spiritually is an inside job and to think it is given by an organization or by some man giving the same sermons over and over badly is a terrible way to think of personal growth.

I gave chunks, bits and pieces of my soul to all these various people, ideas, teachings and hopes along the way and now find myself in the process of recalling and retrieveing those pieces of my soul and restoring myself for a change. No one else is going to do it and grasping, clinging and being attached to people, places and things is a formula for suffering . Nothing lasts....

For them, from HWA to the present, it has always b...

2010-01-08T02:58:22.343+13:00

For them, from HWA to the present, it has always been about power, money and position. Period. In reality the only thing they changed was positioning so
that by changing doctrine they could be accepted by those in the evangelical community outside the old pecking order while privately getting their jollies from
dismantling old WCG.

Transformed by truth? Hardly, deformed is more like it because the greatest miracle that occurred in all of this, and they aren't patting themselves on the back about this one either, was the release of tens of thousands who were now free to move to mature Christian fellowships.

The arrogant, haughty insolent attitudes the inner circle at the top still exhibit,despite having to periodically eat beans (oh the agony), will be cleaned out,
or should I say blasted out, in due time. It won't be pretty either when it happens but they will be without excuse having had plenty of time and warning to repent.

But, that's not in my department and its best left to God who will masterfully perform the task on his time table.