Comments on Ambassador Watch: The WCG that was

Giving Levites every tenth animal and 10% of produ...

2009-11-10T12:31:08.071+13:00

Giving Levites every tenth animal and 10% of produce -- only from the increase -- was always on the honor system and local. The only tithe convertible into money was 2T, to facilitate travel, and was re-converted to livestock once in Jerusalem for Succot. Only in the case of 2T was the holiness of a tithe required by Moses locally transferrable into money and back again in Jerusalem.

The king had no jurisdiction over this, other to insist that Torah law be followed throughout the nation. His tithe was no part of the Levitical system. The king was not a Levite; his 10% was a tax to support his functions.

Why would the king stick his nose into local affairs? His powers were strictly limited by the Sanhedrin. Israel was a free and sovereign people. The king was their top representative, on the throne only by their insistence, anointed to represent an anointed people. And justice was above the throne.

Can you imagine the gross national agricultural product of Israel being walked from Dan to Jerusalem annually? Whatever for? Only to be walked back under authority of the king, to spread the wealth around as he saw fit? Not a chance. Solomon lost the kingdom for comparable policies.

Levites were scattered all over Israel in their own cities, and there was no Armstrong-style supervision over the regulation of their income. For this reason the prophets were constantly reminding the free people not to forget the helpless Levite. Levites depended on the people, not on the king, for their support.

Hi Anon you said The prerogatives of the king ment...

2009-11-10T07:01:17.226+13:00

Hi Anon you said
The prerogatives of the king mentioned in 1 Samuel 8 are in addition to the support for Levites and priests enumerated in the Books of Moses.

on what grounds do you say it was in addition? I suggest it was a change of administration, for from then on, the king directed the priesthood, until the return from captivity when the Governor took over the roll. Though I admit I'm no scholar and am reading this only in English and am always open to other views

Dear Anon 12:05- Do I understand your comment? ...

2009-11-09T12:55:55.291+13:00

Dear Anon 12:05-

Do I understand your comment?

The prerogatives of the king mentioned in 1 Samuel 8 are in addition to the support for Levites and priests enumerated in the Books of Moses. Levites were supported locally, by observant Israelites. To my knowledge the kings had no jurisdiction over tithing to Levites.

Tithes went directly to local Levites at the discretion of landed Israelites. Priests received tithes from their fellow Levites, a tenth of the Levites' tenth of Livestock and produce. There were few parallels between tithing paychecks to Armstrong Headquarters and the honor-system tithing of livestock and veggies to local Levites in ancient Israel.

Samuel enumerated the additional burdens that a king would have to impose on the nation in order to support his administration, his building projects, his army, his lifestyle, etc.

Solomon so greatly abused the royal taxation system that God removed the nation from his son's governance, a process not unlike the courageous American defection from the British crown.

Anonymous said... As for supporting the King, who...

2009-11-08T00:05:03.170+13:00

Anonymous said...

As for supporting the King, who existed at the insistence of the nation, a ten percent tax was paid by the entire nation, possibly with the exception of Levites.

How you read the scriptures on this subject is exactly what I see also. (Not what WCG taught?)Was the tithe the king was told to take 'THE' tithe which before had to be given to the priesthood? I suggest it was, because the king from David on, organized the way the priests operated therefore he was superior. So today the various Governments take the tithe's and do the administration. No more free choice (you go to prison if you don't pay :-))

good point Corky.....to some the water was so dirt...

2009-11-07T17:42:13.349+13:00

good point Corky.....to some the water was so dirty they couldn't see the baby.

For the record (correct me if I'm wrong), back...

2009-11-07T09:13:38.044+13:00

For the record (correct me if I'm wrong), back in ancient Israel when tithing was Constitutional, 3rd tithe was a diversion of 2nd tithe in the 3rd and 6th years of each 7 year cycle. The tithe wasn't money but livestock and produce.

Second tithe was the only tithe legally convertible into money, and that only for the purpose of transporting it to Jerusalem, where it was to be converted back into agricultural products. Tithes were given to Levites in one's area, at one's own discretion, and were not sent to "Headquarters" for disbursement under executive authority.

Presumably, this system will be reinstituted during the Messianic era. It is not presently known exactly how the Armstrong phenomenon will fit into that new/old world order, but there is no doubt that he and his students will participate.

As for supporting the King, who existed at the insistence of the nation, a ten percent tax was paid by the entire nation, possibly with the exception of Levites. Or so I seem to remember...

Anonymous 7:19 wrote: "i know this will sound...

2009-11-07T05:44:53.506+13:00

Anonymous 7:19 wrote:
"i know this will sound presumptuous, but I probably understand what you are doing more so than you do..."

Not only does it SOUND presumptuous, but it IS presumptuous! In the extreme, may I add!!

Ah yes, the old “I can read your mind and hearts, so therefore I don’t need to intelligently respond” defense – a fairly standard evasion among the fundamentalist community, whether you particularly are aware of it or not.

It’s been observed many times on this blog site.

Anon, if you truly DID understand, then you would be both able and willing to articulate YOUR thoughts with greater clarity – as well as OUR thoughts, you know, the ones you claim to understand? Jesus was able to do this, the Apostle Paul did it – but the undereducated “end-time descendants” of such just aren’t up to the task, it seems.

I've met your type many a time before - those who arrogantly CLAIM they really "know the score" so to speak, yet are so blatantly unable to give clear and intelligible verbal expression to such certainties, are completely incapable of engaging in sustained discussion, or willing to use logic and evidence in a step-by-step fashion to demonstrate their assertions.

Until you can do this, you words are empty and virtually meaningless to those outside of your insular little group of fellow supernatural True Believers.

"Maybe if the bathwater wasn't so filthy....

2009-11-07T05:10:59.970+13:00

"Maybe if the bathwater wasn't so filthy...?"

I was going to say "corpulent and maggot-infested", but to each their own. :-P

i think that a lot of folks here are just angry at...

2009-11-06T19:41:17.514+13:00

i think that a lot of folks here are just angry at being misled and are 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', so to speak.

Maybe if the bathwater wasn't so filthy...?

"Unfortunately, Anon, you don't (yet?) ha...

2009-11-06T19:19:04.032+13:00

"Unfortunately, Anon, you don't (yet?) have a "full understanding" of what we are doing, when we "reject God and His ways"."

i know this will sound presumptuous, but I probably understand what you are doing more so than you do...

i think that a lot of folks here are just angry at being misled and are 'throwing the baby out with the bathwater', so to speak.

no worries, it will all come out in the wash.

"God is fair and merciful." Yes. Even w...

2009-11-06T18:18:10.998+13:00

"God is fair and merciful."

Yes. Even when he is drowning infants in a global flood, or picking his teeth while Kapos shovel dead Jews into the ovens. Selah!

The Apostate Paul

"soooo, those that reject God and His ways wi...

2009-11-06T02:49:36.033+13:00

"soooo, those that reject God and His ways will be doing so with full understanding of what they are doing..."

This I agree with. Unfortunately, Anon, you don't (yet?) have a "full understanding" of what we are doing, when we "reject God and His ways".

That God isn't what you think it is, Anon, believe me.

Leonardo said... Both Yahweh the God of the Old Te...

2009-11-05T19:39:00.819+13:00

Leonardo said...
Both Yahweh the God of the Old Testament and Allah the God of the Quran seem remarkably similar in character, temperament and outlook to ancient Near Eastern human tyrants, with their roll of absurdly inflated titles, threats of punishment, etc.

Not "similar", they are exactly the same. Which proves that Islam and Judaism has the same roots in a religion that had existed before either one of them.

It was a mountain god, i.e., a volcano god that was worshiped and the whole thing came from the worship of the pantheon of gods who lived on Mt. Ararat when it was an active volcano. The proof is in the language of the OT itself.

"Because he knew a certain portion of us were...

2009-11-05T19:17:40.615+13:00

"Because he knew a certain portion of us were going to foul up irretrievably when he created us"

well, i'm sure He knew it was possible since we were created as free thinkers...

what you are leaving out is that every human being ever created will eventually have access to the holy spirit, and will be able to know and understand.....if anybody was condemned in this age, then you would have a point...

soooo, those that reject God and His ways will be doing so with full understanding of what they are doing...

God is fair and merciful.

Anonymous 7:18 wrote: "God gives us the key t...

2009-11-05T09:04:12.701+13:00

Anonymous 7:18 wrote:
"God gives us the key to eternal live [sic] and strongly encourages us to use it...."

I presume you meant "the key to eternal LIFE," right?

Anon, precisely WHAT is this key, and in what way would those possessing it actually use it?

Retired Prof makes some good points. The more dee...

2009-11-05T08:46:48.975+13:00

Retired Prof makes some good points.

The more deeply we THINK about this whole issue, the more we study into religion, the more obvious it becomes that it is a very human creation.

The authors of various “holy books” from the past give us stories shaped by ancient theologies, never having intended them to be objective and reliable accounts of our past. Such authors instead provide us with ancient supernatural interpretations of human experiences, the only ones that made any kind of sense to them at the particular time of history in which they were written.

Both Yahweh the God of the Old Testament and Allah the God of the Quran seem remarkably similar in character, temperament and outlook to ancient Near Eastern human tyrants, with their roll of absurdly inflated titles, threats of punishment, etc.

"how is any of that God's fault???" ...

2009-11-05T04:31:59.847+13:00

"how is any of that God's fault???"

Because he knew a certain portion of us were going to foul up irretrievably when he created us, if you believe the stories about him.

Let's do an analogy different from the boss/worker one.

Let's say a scientist is testing mice with different genetic profiles in a laboratory. The investigation requires him to make incisions, for which he puts the mice under anesthesia.

The incisions will reveal which mice carry valuable traits; those will be entered into a breeding program. The others will be incinerated. What possible motive other than sadism could the scientist have for reviving the unsuitable mice to make sure they felt the searing pain of their destruction?

Similarly, if god knew when he created us that we weren't all going to qualify for eternal life by making the right choices, he does bear the ultimate responsibility. Waking us up before throwing us into the lake of fire means he is not just sadistic, like that hypothetical scientist, but petty and vindictive as well.

"We are changed "in a twinkling of an ey...

2009-11-04T19:22:35.545+13:00

"We are changed "in a twinkling of an eye" when we die, not at some later time. "

i noticed that you added "when we die"....yes, we are changed in a twinkling of an eye, but that is to show how quickly the change happens, not when it happens.

the bible tells us when, it's called the resurrection at Christ's return (for some)...and after the millennium for others.

"So the god you worship is a vindictive sadis...

2009-11-04T19:18:16.655+13:00

"So the god you worship is a vindictive sadist?

If your boss were like that, wouldn't you quit your job?
"

vindictive sadist??? how do you come up with that? the only ones destroyed are those that choose to be by making a concious choice not to live according to God's instruction.

God gives us the key to eternal live and strongly encourages us to use it, but alas, some simply will not.

how is any of that God's fault???

Whew, that's a relief. Sorry if I jumped the g...

2009-11-03T02:29:56.288+13:00

Whew, that's a relief. Sorry if I jumped the gun there a little Loch. :-)

Aggie

"...and as for "waking them up to give t...

2009-11-03T02:22:44.627+13:00

"...and as for "waking them up to give them a sleeping pill"....you can look at it that way if you want, but hey, God set it up that way. maybe He wants them to know the end result of their decision."

So the god you worship is a vindictive sadist?

If your boss were like that, wouldn't you quit your job?

You're right Purple and I can see how my off h...

2009-11-02T20:23:05.133+13:00

You're right Purple and I can see how my off hand comment could be misconstrued. I am done with religion but wanted to make clear 'where I was coming from'.

Lochinvar

...and as for "waking them up to give them a ...

2009-11-02T14:27:08.479+13:00

...and as for "waking them up to give them a sleeping pill"....you can look at it that way if you want, but hey, God set it up that way. maybe He wants them to know the end result of their decision.

Funny how one's man interpretation is given the weight and force of the Almighty's wrath. Sometimes I think these cult leaders confuse themselves with Almighty.

We are changed "in a twinkling of an eye" when we die, not at some later time. Ever notice how a dead person's eyes look? The flame has gone out of them.

Once we wear out our "earth-diving" suit, there's not much point in sticking around.

"Under the Christian New Covenant, giving sho...

2009-11-02T07:38:24.000+13:00

"Under the Christian New Covenant, giving should be voluntary."

Loch, I thought you said earlier you had left religion behind? Don't tell me you're a Gracie apologist along with Larry!! 8-O

A few points that were missed: "Health"...

2009-11-02T07:34:42.891+13:00

A few points that were missed:

"Health"

"You are to pray for healing, an elder will lay hands on you and pray for you." If you are extremely ill, the elder will press an anointed cloth to your forehead before praying over you.

"Saturday"

"You are not to work on Saturdays. We consider this day the Sabbath. If you have questions as to what is and what is not acceptable ask a minister."

You are to observe the Sabbath from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. No matter how early it gets dark in northern climates, even if this means you have to leave work early, and you lose your job.

God will provide, and if He doesn't, any trials you undergo in order to keep His Laws are to be considered a blessing, and must be greeted with a smile.

"Appearance"

"If you are female, your hair must be longer and feminine." Must be below the nape of the neck. The woman's hair is her crowning glory to God. (Insert Bible verse prooftext.)

"Doctrine"

You are to believe the King James Version Bible is the holy inerrant inspired Word of God.

You are to believe that the King James Version Bible has been fragmented and mistranslated by man, and only the end-time Elijah has been able to reconstruct the truth of God's True Church out of the Bible jigsaw after 1900 years.

You are to believe that the Church is the One True Church of God, because it is the Church where God has placed His Name.

I think "J" fudged the last part a bit: "If you are not in obedience to God and the Church, you will likely be suspended or disfellowshipped and will share your part in the LAKE OF FIRE with Satan and the demons!"

Two words: Eternal oblivion. (Insert Bible verse as prooftext "...shall not even remember your name".)