Comments on Ambassador Watch: How Then Shall We Not Live - Franky Makes Good

Gavin,I apologize for violating the blog policy re...

2009-01-13T02:36:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

I apologize for violating the blog policy regarding ad hominem postings. I do however, stand 100% behind my statements regarding them both.

"even nominal Christianity would consider most of ...

2009-01-09T12:24:00.000+13:00

"even nominal Christianity would consider most of the bloggers heretics for blah blah blah"

Guess what, kid, "even nominal Christianity" would consider YOU a heretic, too; but you weren't around for long enough prior to the changes, to understand why.

You never attended a Feast site where evangelical picketers screamed epithets and scared little children. (They were literalists, true, but did have to take the "suffer the little children" so literally?)

You never had to listen to a forty-minute harangue from the alleged neighbourhood "welcome wagon" once they found out your family was sabbatarian.

You never (no matter how much you claim to), not even once, experienced the literal rendition of "Thou made us a scorn to our neighbours around/Our foes in laughter and scoffing abound".

You never had to sit in the hallway, the library, or the principal's office at school, because of your beliefs.

You never had the utter and sometimes overwhelming fear of strangers in "the world" that so often continues to plague those of us born and raised in the church, many long years after our exits.

WCG's version of religion was reviled by the Christian world; why do you think the Christian counter-cult groups were the ones that worked so hard to get Senior and Junior to knuckle under and play ball? Not because they had any concern for the members that were being abused; but because they saw dollar signs, and wanted the complacent, placid sheeple to throw their hard-earned money away on the Evangelicals' plot instead.

Which is a long and winding way of saying, "Pot, meet kettle."

"That form of government I left behind when I departed the Worldwide Church of God and I do not intend to submit myself to any other form of it."

If that were really the case, Robert, you wouldn't be promoting Armstrongism as heavily as you are.

Regarding Robert's request, it's probably fair to ...

2009-01-09T10:01:00.000+13:00

Regarding Robert's request, it's probably fair to suggest that the word "psychopath" (not directed at Robert!) constitutes an ad hominem attack - even allowing for the viscous nature of many of Tom's postings. Having followed Robert's blog I think the term "paranoid" is understandable, but is better applied to the postings than the person.

Gavin, Again, you support the "cohort" of evil doe...

2009-01-09T09:34:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

Again, you support the "cohort" of evil doers on the site that hate anything to do with Herbert W. Armstrong and have shown yourself to be biased in their favour.

I am also requesting that you will remove Charlie's offensive comment directed at me and Tom Mahon. I suggest you read your own rules as you have breached them.

They state: "While there is wide latitude on what appears under comments, abusive posts and name calling aimed at other posters will mean a quick trip to the trash folder." Charlie's post is nothing but name calling.

The Ambassador Watch had a useful purpose. Unfortunately you have allowed it to be hijacked by a motley crew of men and women whoses ideas and beliefs would send most of us to hell (even nominal Christianity would consider most of the bloggers heretics for assumptions that Jesus is a pagan myth, the Bible being outdated , containing deceiptful words; the tree to be worshiiped as a feminine goddess and more that comes out of their mouths.

The Ambassador Watch always goes through stages and eventually debate is stiffled by the few with their own agenda to discredit anyone with a Church of God background. The forum some 6-9 months ago was a different place--there was more openness, tolerance of each other and opinions would be shared that were insightful. These days it is overrun by a few personalities that stiffle dissent and you are to blame for allowing this happen.

I urge you to recapture the true values of the Ambassador Watch and let it again be a place to share information and not be a community of hate. People are free to believe what they want but Ambassador Watch must uphold everybody's freedom--that means, the freedom to disagree without censorship.

When you began your campaign to censor people's posts, I decided this was not the place for me. I do not agree with censorship because it is a means of control. That form of government I left behind when I departed the Worldwide Church of God and I do not intend to submit myself to any other form of it.

Regards

Robert
www.biblesabbath.org.uk

"All that to say, I understand now what you meant....

2009-01-08T16:49:00.000+13:00

"All that to say, I understand now what you meant."

Thanks Dennis. I can see where you're coming from, too.

Anon 12:30"One episode had Homer Simpson, praying ...

2009-01-07T14:49:00.000+13:00

Anon 12:30

"One episode had Homer Simpson, praying TO Jebus! "

uhh...it's a cartoon. A cartoon is not real. It is to make people laugh at unrealistic and ridiculous situations.

I need to prove a point. Please answer this question:
Do you belong to a church?

Anonymous 3:46, We probably don't have much to qui...

2009-01-07T10:12:00.000+13:00

Anonymous 3:46,

We probably don't have much to quibble about. Whether Paul existed (either by that name or another) or not, some of the epistles attributed to him are probably among the earliest New Testament writings, and present a Christ quite unlike the Jesus of the synoptic gospels (which were perhaps written a generation or more after the events they describe). But the Jesus Christ of the Gospel of John bears more similarity to the Pauline Christ; indicating a probable very late time of writing, as the "proto-orthodox" form of Christianity was beginning to rise. The Jerusalem Jesus movement--yes, Sabbath/Holyday keeping, etc.--perhaps had little to do with "Pauline" Christianity. The ongoing academic work in Christian origins may bear more information in years to come. But: it was the Pauline idea of who Christ was, and his purpose, that began paving the way for "orthodox" forms of Christianity.

"To the degree they submit to the Bible they are b...

2009-01-07T09:45:00.000+13:00

"To the degree they submit to the Bible they are blessed."

To the degree they submit to the Bible they are unconscious, blind, deaf and dumb.

Protestants have by and large rejected basic Bible...

2009-01-07T07:57:00.000+13:00

Protestants have by and large rejected basic Bible theology but retained the terminology (largely). Yet many are enthusiastic for Jesus, for the Bible and for the ethical teachings of Jesus. We could equate them with those Israelites who worshipped joyfully in the Temple and attended synagogue.

(In this COGs and XCOGs would greatly benefit from following their example.)

They are, like the Israelites, influenced by the Spirit (but not begotten) through contact with the Scriptures - but have not yet committed to the Bible times and pattern for worship.

To the degree they submit to the Bible they are blessed.

2009-01-07T05:37:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

PSFirst of all, it has come to my attention that "...

2009-01-07T02:26:00.000+13:00

PS

First of all, it has come to my attention that "Mystery of the Ages", is now to be found in the KENT STATE Library assigned the Library of Congress number of:

BS511.2 .A63 1985
The prefix of "BS" is how the Karma Fairy plays... :)

On another note to Purple Hymnal:

I'm glad you mentioned that actually. I can't say I've never thought of not growing up in WCG, but it would account for a lot in my approach over the years. I was never in the loop as they say.

It was a real head shaker to me when I thought I wanted to, perhaps, teach swimming or canoeing or anything at SEP to get away from church, church, church for a time. I had all the swimming credentials, swim teams, Water safety instructor, canoeing and such merit badges, American Red Cross instructor blah blah....I also was a camp counselor prior to WCG for three years for the Salvation Army Camp.

They kept giving the job to people who could not swim or had no background. I never got to go. Well, I did go one summer when camp was closed (I was still a student) and I spent all summer cutting sod for the grounds.

When it came to SEP, it was who you knew and who you were. Probably that way all around me and I was too naive or in denial to see it.

Ok, off to nursing home to do massage for a stranded client in hip surgery recovery.

Purp said:"I contend, and will continue to do so, ...

2009-01-07T01:15:00.000+13:00

Purp said:

"I contend, and will continue to do so, that those of us born and raised in the Worldwide Church of God prior to the changes, have absolutely no common frame of reference with Christianity;"

I took your comment out of that context. Yes, I understand that completely. Topics such as "accurate prophecy" "proper sabbath keeping", though I grew up rather strict Calvinistic in Sunday keeping, and especially "one true church" were never on my plate growing up.

I grew up with ministers, all of whom I appreciated and were very educated in the Bible but never with "That's Mr. so and so" It didn't work like that.

As a result, I both thought I appreciated HWA and GTA but when they were wrong, such as comments about science or evolution, I just blew it off. When the more extreme types talked about "fleeing" or "Petra", it both annoyed and concerned me should that ever come to pass. I think I had no personal plan to ever "flee" or tell anyone in my church to do so.

In hindsite, I never belonged in the WCG. I was a kid enamoured with the way it was said and the use of more of the Bible I never heard about as Presbyterian.

Topics like make up, medical use and such turned my stomach when they came up in actual practice. I ignored them when I could and then told members to do what they needed to do privately . I wish now I had given sermons on "the church is not right on everything and you should do as YOU feel serves you," but alas, I felt perhaps it was my lack of something that was the problem. I was not bold and was compliant. This accounts I think now for the "I'll take that into consideration" approach I have now.

"I'll take that into consideration" is basically a , "no, I"m not going to do that."

I don't know how I'd have been, knowing my liberal nature, if I grew up in such a church as WCG. I may have complied until I exploded.

All that to say, I understand now what you meant.

Anonymous said... " One episode had Homer Simpson,...

2009-01-06T20:31:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said...
" One episode had Homer Simpson, praying TO Jebus!"

What about the time when he prayed to Santa: "Why Santa WHY ?" hilarious.

Thank you, Anon 12:30, for your insightful review....

2009-01-06T16:52:00.000+13:00

Thank you, Anon 12:30, for your insightful review. That's why the Simpsons is a comedy, and that's why it's in its 20th season.

Some of the viewers may not agree with your audience profile.

"In a more general sense, and probably in the sens...

2009-01-06T15:46:00.000+13:00

"In a more general sense, and probably in the sense that you mean, "orthodox" means the form of Christianity espoused by the Apostle Paul and became the victorious "brand" of Christianity."

The apostle Paul never existed. He is a fabrication, though someone did write the epistles.

But the authors of the epistles were not "orthodox" in the sense of what came out of Nicea and later church councils.

The authors of the epistles

o Kept Sabbath
o Kept the Holy Days
o Did not believe in the trinity

The authors of the epistles did add a bunch of stuff, including

o A structure for church government
o A New Testament priesthood
o A "New Testament Passover"
o A unique explanation of grace
o A unique explanation of law

These things by themselves are not "orthodox". They come mostly from second century and early third century theologians.

"I can't speak for anyone but me, but I was as muc...

2009-01-06T15:37:00.000+13:00

"I can't speak for anyone but me, but I was as much a professing Christian as anyone I ever met in or out of WCG."

Right, but you had an idea of Christianity (Presbyterianism) to go by when you signed up, Dennis.

I contend, and will continue to do so, that those of us born and raised in the Worldwide Church of God prior to the changes, have absolutely no common frame of reference with Christianity; Orthodox, non-Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, etcetera.

Christians were members of the harlot daughter churches of the Great Whore of Babylon (RCC), and as such, definitely not something to be identified with, nor to identify oneself as.

"We are a non-denominational Judeo-Christian sect." At no point did we ever, ever, EVER say "Yes we're Christians." If asked "Are you Christian?" the correct response was "We believe in Jesus Christ." If it was followed up with "Are you born-again?" the correct answer was "No," with a brief paraphrase about "the spirit in man". (Which could often lead to an argument, with trinitarianists, and so conversation was generally sidetracked before it could get to that point.)

Those who came to the church with a prior knowledge of what Christianity is and was, doubtless would have identified themselves as Christians, while they were in (albeit "the only true Christians", but Christians nonetheless).

For myself, as one born and raised under pure Armstrongism, unadulterated by any kind of comparative religious teachings, I have no understanding, comprehension, nor attraction towards anything of Christianity. It is just not in my frame of reference. And no amount of reading, so many long years after the fact, is going to change that. Have you done any comparative reading on "mainstream" Christianity?? Depending on the name of the door, one sect is at odds with another on ONE sticking point; they split hairs, in order that they might factionalize further.

I would have better luck learning ancient Coptic.......

Paco,That's a great idea! A 40th anniversary conve...

2009-01-06T13:43:00.000+13:00

Paco,

That's a great idea! A 40th anniversary convention in some appropriate spot, such as Pasadena or Petra!

My never-to-be-accomplished dream idea is a fictitious biographical film of HWA, done in a similar style to Citizen Kane.

The Simpsons television cartoon show is for godles...

2009-01-06T12:30:00.000+13:00

The Simpsons television cartoon show is for godless idiots who don't know anything. One episode had Homer Simpson, praying TO Jebus! What idiots, besides those who watch The Simpsons, would be that stupid?

I Chronicles 11:4 points out that Jebus was the former name of the city of Jerusalem when it was inhabited by the Jebusites, before David conquered the place.

II Chronicles 6:1-42 records King Solomon's prayer at the dedication of the Temple he built in the city of Jerusalem. Notice that he repeatedly talks about praying TOWARD the city and the temple, NOT pryaing TO the city.

"The reason Evangelical Christianity survives is i...

2009-01-06T07:31:00.000+13:00

"The reason Evangelical Christianity survives is it is Orthodox. Plain and simple."

Let's be clear on terminology: the strict meaning of "Orthodox Christianity" refers to Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are often referred to as "Western Christianity."

In a more general sense, and probably in the sense that you mean, "orthodox" means the form of Christianity espoused by the Apostle Paul and became the victorious "brand" of Christianity. Both Eastern and Western Christianities descend from Pauline theology, though the perspective of the Eastern Orthodox church is considerably different from that of the Western churches.

Off topic here, but I just realized that we are co...

2009-01-06T06:56:00.000+13:00

Off topic here, but I just realized that we are coming up on the 37th anniversary of the church's failure to flee to the place of safety in 1972. Maybe we should have some sort of world wide Worldwide reunion in 2012 on the 40th anniversary - oooh, another 2012 pointer. Maybe those Mayans were on to something.

- Which leads to the thought that maybe we all were supposed to wander in the wilderness for 40 years after missing our opportunity in 1972 because we weren't ready.

There are always some dots left to connect,no matter what the situation.

What has happened to my fellow countrymen????????M...

2009-01-06T00:56:00.000+13:00

What has happened to my fellow countrymen????????

MAYBE LURKING IN THE UNDERGROWTH!

What’s happened to Tom & Robert? Why have they...

2009-01-05T23:09:00.000+13:00

What’s happened to Tom & Robert? Why have they disappeared from the links to Apologetics?

As these were the only UK sites listed, and have now been deleted, is this a case of ‘The Empire strikes back?’ (Or maybe ‘The Kiwi strikes back’).

What has happened to my fellow countrymen????????

"we were not Christians, and therefore have absolu...

2009-01-05T15:58:00.000+13:00

"we were not Christians, and therefore have absolutely no common frame of reference to understand Christianity "as is" as a result."

I was more a Christian in WCG than ever in the Presbyterian Church. We were Jewish Christians endeavoring to recreate a first century experience of the early Jesus movement which was Jewish.

Paul Gentiled Jewish Christianity into a corner where it languished and all but died.

Jesus never expected to build a church and words to that effect were put into his mouth by Gospel authors after building a church around Jesus was all that was left to do. Jesus meant for his actions in the temple at Passover to start God's intervention and throw out the Romans.

It's why he reported to have said, "My God my God...why have you forsaken me?" He wasn't kidding. In Jesus mind, he did all the things a good Messiah was supposed to do and God dropped the ball in the end.

The COG's and all fundamentalist Christians will never understand that the Jesus of the Gospels and the Jewish Church under James was at odds with the Apostle Paul, not team mates. They taught different realities about Jesus and Paul won over time becoming the religion of the realm in the forms we have today.

I can't speak for anyone but me, but I was as much a professing Christian as anyone I ever met in or out of WCG.

Gentile Christians always have to temper Grace with more laws to control the behaviors of the members. Paul learned that the hard way in Corinth where his doctrines of Grace ended him up with a horny misbehaving bunch in need of rules.

Jewish Christians have to temper Law with more Grace since they break them all the time and don't really want to be judged by law. Law also lends itself to self righteous pronouncements where Grace lends itself to lazy ambiguous beliefs.

If you really get Grace Haunted, you end up babbling drivel on the Surprising God Blog.

"On Franky .......even reducing him to.....shoving...

2009-01-05T15:38:00.000+13:00

"On Franky .......even reducing him to.....shoving frozen pork chops into his pants."

Is this the elusive origin of Franky's famous quotation "relax don't do it?"

Nostradamus Code

2009-01-05T14:39:00.000+13:00

Nostradamus Code