Comments on Ambassador Watch: The Ultimate Guide

"Not to gloat, but I left when Jesus failed to hon...

2007-11-28T12:34:00.000+13:00

"Not to gloat, but I left when Jesus failed to honor HWA's false prophecies in 1975."

A true critical thinker who acts on the evidence.

It's not easy.

Paul

My pastor was also Peter Shenton but I don't remem...

2007-11-28T10:00:00.000+13:00

My pastor was also Peter Shenton but I don't remember a Tom Mahon? You also in Ross on Wye congregation? Or are you Tom Smith, a fellow Messianic Jew?

I do remember at the time some fellow exWCG members around 1993 who was saying that Peter Shenton was not preaching any of the new doctrines. He refused to preach them.

And Peter Shenton accused me of spreading dissident literature but all I did was send in a few addresses to the Philadelphia Church of God because they were encouraging us all to do that. And I thought they were the true church back in those days.

Not to gloat, but I left when Jesus failed to hono...

2007-11-28T06:16:00.000+13:00

Not to gloat, but I left when Jesus failed to honor HWA's false prophecies in 1975. That set of circumstances said it all. God did not provide His witness to HWA's ministry in any way similar to the way He did for Moses, the prophets, or Jesus and the apostles.

Taking that into consideration, why should someone have felt compelled to preach against Tkach's changes? Obviously some effort had to be made to perhaps get God involved in the WCG, as it's only obvious that what had come before that was not working. I'm not saying that what the Tkach's did was right, as I really don't see the witness of God with the "new" WCG, or for that matter with any of the splinter groups. If God is working with any group today, that group has not been made obvious as of yet. I can't imagine the real thing being spawned by anything associated with the ACOG movement. Why would God reward a group that faked and lied about the gifts of the Holy Spirit?

BB

Tom,Thank you for finally addressing at least one ...

2007-11-28T03:33:00.000+13:00

Tom,

Thank you for finally addressing at least one or two questions.

I stopped attending a few months after you, largely from disillusionment, went to a few United services mostly out of a feeling of obligation, gave up armstrongism entirely around 1999, and became disgusted by it around 2001 after some extensive research and reflection.

Charlie said...>>>I don't know of any that spoke o...

2007-11-27T22:19:00.000+13:00

Charlie said...

>>>I don't know of any that spoke out against Tkatch from the pulpit.<<<

And I am yet to communicate with anyone who does.

I started giving sermonettes in the summer of 1982, and my last sermonette in WCG was June 1995. I left WCG around the middle of July 1995.

My local pastor was Peter Shenton, who is now with Hulme. Ask him what I preached and what was his reaction?

Not a chance? Predistinated?Has Tom heard about th...

2007-11-27T19:33:00.000+13:00

Not a chance? Predistinated?

Has Tom heard about the Second Resurrection? The Judgment? The Lake of Fire for those who blew their chance?

Heretic.

Dennis:I was never in the ministry or deaconry or ...

2007-11-27T18:51:00.000+13:00

Dennis:

I was never in the ministry or deaconry or any such thing, but I can relate to many of the emotions you describe in your leaving WCG experience.

I had given a few sermonettes and had been tapped by the local pastor to be the festival elder the last year I attended. I politely refused, pointing out that I had already decided not to attend that year, but that didn't dissuade him and he didn't take "no" for an answer.

By that time I was beginning to see what Harmstrongism had done to my life and those around me - and I also saw that I shared in the guilt because my tithes, offerings, prayers and general support had helped ensnare others.

I called the pastor and left a message that I couldn't be his festival adviser and that I couldn't do sermonettes any longer either. I stopped attending that sabbath, and haven't been back.

I also came to realize that the train wreck that WCG went through got the message of doctrinal change to just about everyone that had ever attended any of the COG's. They then too had an opportunity to re-evaluate what they believed and if the "changes" were true.

I sense a feeling of regret in your posting, which is quite understandable. I hope it doesn't include guilt - everyone's been given an opportunity to live free from the bondage of Harmstrongism, whether they choose to take it or not.

KMS

Tom, did you preach against the 'changes' while in...

2007-11-27T15:20:00.000+13:00

Tom, did you preach against the 'changes' while in WCG, if you were a minister then?
I personally didn't hear anyone preach against the Tkach-era changes, since I stopped attending shortly after Stanley Rader was baptized, and wasn't around for that later stuff.

From talking with family and friends, I do know that there were ministers who would not preach about or implement them. I hear it got rather hairy, as members were in contact with members in other areas, who would tell them of what was being preached in those other WCG congregations.
It must have been a strange time indeed, to have been a member.

Tom,I'll address your red herring first.I don't kn...

2007-11-27T11:22:00.000+13:00

Tom,

I'll address your red herring first.

I don't know of any that spoke out against Tkatch from the pulpit. My last minister only said he would never preach anything he couldn't prove from the bible, but he did preach some of tkatch's changes prior to exiting to United. Which would include some doctrines that United (and later Hulme's sect)would not hold.

Happy?

My question to you is very relevant to this thread though. You do point a lot of fingers, you judge everyone, set yourself up as a saint (you said that, not me) and yet, no mention of where or when you started preaching. I would like to know if you preached in worldwide and what you preached for one. I'm willing to bet we could find all kinds of contradictions and hypocrisy which you will justify. You are also on the record as stating that it is a sin to start your own church...well, armstrong started his own, meredith started his own (twice) and now you have your own website.

If your self-righteousness and pomposity could be made into a mountain, Mt. Everest would be dwarfed.

Charlie said...Tom: >>>"I have not met one single ...

2007-11-27T10:30:00.000+13:00

Charlie said...

Tom: >>>"I have not met one single minister who stood at the lectern, and told his congregation that what Tkach was preaching was spiritual poison. As a consequence, thousands of the brethren died of spiritual poisoning. But God will require the death of his flock at the hands of those ministers who put financial considerations before the welfare of his people!"<<<

Charlie>>>Tom, you point an awful lot of accusatory fingers...When exactly did you first start bellowing sermonettes and sermons?<<<

********************************************

In stead of asking me irrelevant questions, and accusing me of pointing fingers, why not rebut what I said, by stating how many ministers you know who stood at the lectern and told their respective congregations not to believe what Tkach was preaching?

BTW, please note that I didn't say, no minister spoke out against Tkach's teaching. I said, I haven't met one minister who did. If you have met one or several ministers who spoke out, then please say so.

864 905 5804 After seven for freeby talk time! ...

2007-11-27T09:39:00.000+13:00

864 905 5804 After seven for freeby talk time! Or any weekend. Email in profile by clicking my name.

And Tom, again I ask, why would I be surprised to ...

2007-11-27T09:27:00.001+13:00

And Tom, again I ask, why would I be surprised to learn?

paul

"The ones taught by Jesus and the Apostles; of whi...

2007-11-27T09:27:00.000+13:00

"The ones taught by Jesus and the Apostles; of which Jesus said: "If you know these things, happy are you if you DO them."

So if any of the Law was not taught by Christ or the Apostles, then Christians do not have to observe them?

Paul

tom saith: "I have not met one single minister who...

2007-11-27T09:23:00.000+13:00

tom saith: "I have not met one single minister who stood at the lectern, and told his congregation that what Tkach was preaching was spiritual poison. As a consequence, thousands of the brethren died of spiritual poisoning. But God will require the death of his flock at the hands of those ministers who put financial considerations before the welfare of his people!"

Tom, you point an awful lot of accusatory fingers...When exactly did you first start bellowing sermonettes and sermons? What years and what churches? Would you care to post your sermons on-line and let us see if you are talking out of both sides of your mouth?

I don't know how they did things in the UK but my local WCG pastors taught (and it was a question asked before you could be baptized) that if the church was wrong about something and you knew it, you were to pray to God to correct it, and in his own good time it would be corrected.

At least three of them left to be a part of the startup of other churches. I would imagine that they prayed about it for some time before deciding that armstrong must have been right about everything except for God having the power to fix things within his own organization.

So I'll repeat my questions in case you are confused and add one more:

- When and in what church did you take to preaching?
- Will you post your sermons on-line so we can see if you have been a hypocrite or just crazy?
- When did you have your epiphany where you realized that you were right and everyone else is wrong?

Dennis, who is hated by Google, perhaps you should...

2007-11-27T09:21:00.000+13:00

Dennis, who is hated by Google, perhaps you should publish your telephone number (or 'A' telephone number) again and see what happens.
Just suggestin'.

Lochinvar

DennisDiehlI didn't have a lot of time to tell the...

2007-11-27T09:13:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl

I didn't have a lot of time to tell the congregation of anything.

My departure was during the time when we were still being told we were not changing while changes were being made. We were still in the liberal Sabbath keeping mode and not "Let's flip to Sunday, keep Xmas and Easter, Wave our hands and slobber all over Jesus" stage. As I said, it was the time where you asked a question and got a lying answer, but didn't know it.

It was during this time I studied myself out of belief in the inerrant text and literalism of my Sunday School days. I used the Xmas is coming thought that was percolating in the background to study the Birth Narrative's of Jesus figuring if that ever happened, I'd have a story about Jesus in the Gospels bigger than the one they were concocting. The congregation at the time enjoyed the series for the most part. I was teaching it at a local Catholic Church under a Montsignor who was a student of Dr. Raymond Brown who wrote "The Birth Narratives of the Messiah."

I'd recommend that book to anyone who wants a serious explanation about why the stories of Jesus miraculous birth are as they are, how they were put together (badly in most places) and why.

As I said, transitions are messy and take time. My marriage was coming apart as well for which I take responsibility. It had nothing to do with being a hireling. For lots of reasons and in lots of ways, my head was spinning just like everyone elses.

If I had been hireling quality, I would have joined those that wanted me to "take the local church" or join a sphincter group.

Nope...whatever I was going to do, it was not going to be ministerial having anything to do with telling people what they want to hear or what I was expected to say. I certainly was not interested in the politics of it all.

There was never any theological questioning in WCG or much intellectual content in seminars and refreshers. I would have done much better at a Yale Divinity School or something with some punch. I am not capable of knowing Jesus as some emotional feeling or generic pablum. That's why I left the Presbyterian church of my youth and got take full circle by another church that reinvented the wheel and get over how clever they were doing it.

After the five minute phone call ending it all, I sat on the steps of the apt and felt a very weird relief along with all the fear of "what now."

I attended my own church for a few months and it was pathetic. Those who were itching for the job, got it and believe me, are not inspiring types.

I went to one last feast, got slapped on the back by Joe Tkach Jr, who I ignored and then he prayed for me during the opening prayer. The cross being dragged into the Feast decked in purple was it for me. I never went back.

I completely believed God called me to be a minister when I was very young and for most of those years. If God couldn't get his act together and guide "the work" as we all prayed for years any better than this, the contract was null and void.

Now I realize God was not in it as not in many other groups and ideas and think he is the sole originator of. I grew up late.

Right after WCG sold the whole campus for undisclosed millions Ronald Kelly told me that because Christ had worked a great miracle , the church could not follow through on promises made to ministers for years of service. It was then I realized that the WCG Jesus was a trickster and easily envoked to get an abbarent organization off the hook when convenient. It was Satan that attacked the Church in '79 and Jesus attacked it himself in the 90's, so it made sense. They were a great tag team!

I practice not defending myself but do try to explain it through my own eyes of experience. I am comfortable with my own experience and motives. Being "one of them" "a minister" "Bastor" "Pastord" or aledged hireling goes with the turf after such a religious experience that had so many goofy participants.

Om na-mo
Bha-ga-va-----te
Vasudeva-ya

>>>Dennis -- can you imagine a worse life than hav...

2007-11-27T09:02:00.000+13:00

>>>Dennis -- can you imagine a worse life than having devoted 40+ years to a religious organization, knowing it was a fraud.

At the end of the day, it is a living. And a very comfortable one at that, like so many of ministers in the churches. Do we honestly think the local baptist minister is going to question seriously his doctrinal basis, when he could loose the house his church allowed him to live in, loose his parish and his livelihood.

If we feel people must have integrity then we are kidding ourselves. This is the real world! People have bills to pay, pensions to maintain, vehicles to pay for!

The ministers of the COG groups are no different to ministers in any church denomination. I knew one minister in the Church of England who said that doctrine wasn't important to him, though he had a nice house but grumbled to me that he still had targets to meet. He has to get a certain number of people attending his church every week.

The only solution is not to have a paid ministry (have part time ministers who subsidise their job by proper employment).

Dennis Diehl here:>>>I did stay too long and proba...

2007-11-27T08:12:00.001+13:00

Dennis Diehl here:

>>>I did stay too long and probably said too little. I kept thinking it would change and felt an incredible responsibility to the local congregation not to just walk off and leave them.<<<

It depends on what you said. If you told the congregation, over which the Holy Spirit had made you an overseer, that the doctrinal changes were heretical, then you have fulfilled your responsibility to the flock. On the other hand, if you behaved like a fearful watchman, who saw the wolf pack coming over the hill, and in fear fled and left the flock to be mauled and scattered, then you are a hireling.

On three occasions, Jesus asked, "Peter, do you love me?" And on each occasion, Peter said, yes. And on each occasion Jesus replied: "Feed my sheep." Which means, the only way I will know that you truly love me, is if you don't abandon my sheep, but are willing to lay down your life for them.

I have not met one single minister who stood at the lectern, and told his congregation that what Tkach was preaching was spiritual poison. As a consequence, thousands of the brethren died of spiritual poisoning. But God will require the death of his flock at the hands of those ministers who put financial considerations before the welfare of his people!

Aw Charlie, you're my bud. I was reminiscing mor...

2007-11-27T08:12:00.000+13:00

Aw Charlie, you're my bud. I was reminiscing more about those that I pastored, and drove all over creation for. Call again!

dd

Tom saith: "This is a heretical idea! Salvation ha...

2007-11-27T08:04:00.000+13:00

Tom saith: "This is a heretical idea! Salvation has nothing to do with chance. Salvation is a gift of God to his chosen elect, whom he predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world. I could expand of this by citing several scriptural texts, but as most of you here have fallen from grace, it would be a waste of my time."

Yet another example of Tom's all knowing and all loving God: Bring billions of people to life with the certain knowledge that many will life life in futility, destined before their birth to suffer and amount to nothing more than an insignificant moment in creation.

Tom, you make me more than a little sick. If you are a saint than I am Mickey Mouse.

Dennis said: "In the past I have given my phone out on AW and my email and very very few ever take me up on it. Actually none."

I tried calling you twice, left a message at least once and sent a text to make sure I had the right number. All I got back was a 'got it' I believe. We shared a few emails and that was it. I'm not the most prolific communicator in the world but I like to think I count as more than none.

Off topic: Simona,I hope you had a nice Thanksgiving Holiday.

Anonymous said...>>>Then under the New Covenant, w...

2007-11-27T07:43:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said...

>>>Then under the New Covenant, which laws are to be observed?<<<

The ones taught by Jesus and the Apostles; of which Jesus said: "If you know these things, happy are you if you DO them." And in another place he said: "He that hears these sayings of mind and DO them, is like a man that built is house upon a rock, etc.."

The church is a community of saints, not a refuge for sinners, you may surprised to learn!

"but as most of you here have fallen from grace, i...

2007-11-27T07:38:00.000+13:00

"but as most of you here have fallen from grace, it would be a waste of my time."

Translation: From prior experience I know that my position can easily be refuted.

Paul

Douglas Becker said:>>There are great ideas, such ...

2007-11-27T07:32:00.000+13:00

Douglas Becker said:

>>There are great ideas, such as every person who ever lived having a second chance at salvation.<<

This is a heretical idea! Salvation has nothing to do with chance. Salvation is a gift of God to his chosen elect, whom he predestined to salvation before the foundation of the world. I could expand of this by citing several scriptural texts, but as most of you here have fallen from grace, it would be a waste of my time.

Does anyone have information as to whether the fol...

2007-11-27T07:31:00.000+13:00

Does anyone have information as to whether the followers of the spin-offs (Pack. Flurry, Meredith, etc.) are still faithfully giving the 3T's plus freewill and other $$$'s. The various spin-offs have to be hurting financially.

Or if the membership rolls are still holding. It seems most everyone has either left or if they remained, lose some steam along the way.

Dennis -- can you imagine a worse life than having devoted 40+ years to a religious organization, knowing it was a fraud. I am referring to those who continue to stay in the ministry, fully aware of this; and not those like yourself who left when they became aware of the magnitude of lies & misrepresentations.

"It doesn't apply, because at the time of reformat...

2007-11-27T07:18:00.000+13:00

"It doesn't apply, because at the time of reformation, the new covenant replaced the old."

Then under the New Covenant, which laws are to be observed?

Paul