Comments on Ambassador Watch: Another Journal hits the post

Tom wrote:North Carolina! Oops. The HQ of LCG is l...

2007-11-26T01:52:00.000+13:00

Tom wrote:

North Carolina! Oops. The HQ of LCG is located there, so don't be surprised if you have to flee when God's judgment descends upon the place.

Well, I don't know why Charlotte would be any more on the bad side of the deity's judgement than any other city, despite LCG's HQ being twenty minutes' drive from my home. Charlotte is a good place to live, but it is true that we want to be living in that house in Netherton, a few minutes' walk from the legendary Ma Pardoes' (the Old Swan) in the fairly near future.

2007-11-22T11:15:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Camfinch>>>I would NEVER criticize a Black Country...

2007-11-21T21:31:00.000+13:00

Camfinch

>>>I would NEVER criticize a Black Country accent! My wife grew up on the Darlaston side of Wednesbury. And we own a house (which we rent out to tenants) in Netherton. Criticize the Black Country?? I'm not like all the anti-Black Country bigots who range across Britain.<<<

Darlaston! it is part of the industrial heartland of the UK, with some very wonderful people. I live about a mile from the centre of Darlaston.

The people who criticise the Black Country don't realise how much the Black Country has contributed to the industrial revolution, that is responsible the development of the whole world. The development came about because God kept his promise to Abraham to bless his children with the abundance of the earth.

>>>Don't worry, as a Wolves supporter, I'm used to the embarrassments. Both Albion and Wolves are currently doing well, especially Albion. We'll see how it turns out by end of season.<<<

Both Albion and Wolves glory days will return again. Just be patient!

>>>Camfinch in Charlotte<<<

North Carolina! Oops. The HQ of LCG is located there, so don't be surprised if you have to flee when God's judgment descends upon the place.

"Are you implying that people from West Bromwich c...

2007-11-21T07:49:00.000+13:00

"Are you implying that people from West Bromwich can't speak English, because the majority of them speak with a Black Country accent?"

Tom, I wish I'd had a chance to read your response earlier, when you would've still been following this thread, but I was out of town for a couple of days. But just in case you're still tuning in...

I would NEVER criticize a Black Country accent! My wife grew up on the Darlaston side of Wednesbury. And we own a house (which we rent out to tenants) in Netherton. Criticize the Black Country?? I'm not like all the anti-Black Country bigots who range across Britain.

Don't worry, as a Wolves supporter, I'm used to the embarrassments. Both Albion and Wolves are currently doing well, especially Albion. We'll see how it turns out by end of season.

Camfinch in Charlotte

If Jesus said you'd know his own by those that lov...

2007-11-19T09:16:00.000+13:00

If Jesus said you'd know his own by those that love one another, and Paul says "I don't want any difference of opinion", which do you think should carry the greater weight?

Well, St. Paul never said, that we know of, "I don't want any difference of opinion," but he did speak against the sin of schism. The same Jesus who said Christians will be identifiable by their love for one another also prayed that they all may be one. So it seems Jesus and St. Paul were all on the same page when it comes to "divisions" (which are rather more than a simple difference of opinion).

>>>>Anonymous said... C. Wayne Cole, Where Are You...

2007-11-19T08:43:00.000+13:00

>>>>Anonymous said...
C. Wayne Cole, Where Are You?<<<

For starters......
http://cog7.org/convention_review.html

C. Wayne Cole, Where Are You?

2007-11-19T08:24:00.000+13:00

C. Wayne Cole, Where Are You?

Tom wrote:In spite of the fact that God inspired t...

2007-11-18T19:25:00.000+13:00

Tom wrote:

In spite of the fact that God inspired the apostle Paul to write:

Now how do you know God inspired anything Paul wrote? Is your source Catholic tradition? The question is a valid question.

I can live with a Bible filled with different opinions, can you?

I don't pretend to piece it together in some whole puzzle that was never there.

“Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that you be perfectly joined together in the same mind and the same judgement” (1 Cor.1:10),

If Jesus said you'd know his own by those that love one another, and Paul says "I don't want any difference of opinion", which do you think should carry the greater weight?

Mr. Cole, according to the November/December issues of The Journal, preached a sermon advocating tolerance of doctrinal divisions and differences in practice amongst the churches of God. Yet The Chosen Vessel, in addition to saying, “that there be no divisions among you,” was also inspired to pray: “that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the father of our Lord Jesus Christ” (Roms.15:6). How can we glorify God with one mind if there are doctrinal divisions and practices amongst us? Perhaps Mr. Cole would like to explain?

Perhaps the old guy is getting the big picture that there isn't a hair's breadth of difference in any of the Amstrong splinter groups.

Something that seems to be eluding you.

And no, I am not "ordained" but I was once offered that by someone who will remain nameless if I joined "their side". "We like you, you're a fighter!"

And such an offer from an institution that judged me not to be ministerial material while I was in college. I think of that as a badge of honor now.

Neotherm opined:"Kind of like the incomplete pictu...

2007-11-18T14:35:00.000+13:00

Neotherm opined:

"Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GTA. He is accused of having relations with untold numbers of AC female students. But there no evidence has ever emerged on this. It seems like someone would break silence. And while GTA is always faulted, these women are not."

Well, I personally knew (not in the
biblical sense) four (4) Pasadena
Pasadena AC coeds and two female
employees who were in fact seduced by GTA, plus rumours of others.

And no, they didn't invite his advances --curbstone opinions
notwithstanding.

You know Robert, Proverbs does say that the libera...

2007-11-18T13:40:00.000+13:00

You know Robert, Proverbs does say that the liberal soul shall be made fat.

Anyway, what follows is advice for the idolaters who worship Herbert Armstrong, given as a public service in the church of gods:

Hefty Herbert Armstrong may have been big enough to have his own zip code if he hadn't felt compelled to travel so much to "keep the ball rolling" so to speak. As a man of substantial means, or just substantial substance, any icon beyond a simple small picture nailed to the wall could risk falling and breaking something.

If you have a full sized portrait, insure that the picture frame has proper support. If you are going to have a Buddha-like statue of him, say, in your garden grotto, be certain that you have a heavy load bearing support which will not crumble. Consult professional construction engineers for details. Marble is nice, but be certain that it is cut in such a way that it won't give way. A kneeling rock in front of the place of honor would certainly complete the ambiance. It isn't clear that Flurry would part with his, but you never know: He may be short cash and find the right offer attractive. It's worth a try.

Marble statues or iron ones, such as the one for Lenin, yet another despot, may be enough for those who have formed their own, yet another cult spit-off, of the church of gods, but nothing would beat solid gold, if it is in the budget. Your idol should be as close to Buddha in substance as possible, to honor the dead false prophet upon which you ostensibly [but not factually] build your new-found man-made religion with you at the center of it. Family ministries may not be able to fulfill the full solid gold vision, but do everything you can, because in the long term, this will have to last you a life time.

And just remember, you won't be able to take it with you, where you are going, so enjoy it while you still can.

Gold melts and your shrine will be a mess at the end of it all.

>>>Mr. Armstrong, on the other hand, was Godly Fat...

2007-11-18T13:13:00.000+13:00

>>>Mr. Armstrong, on the other hand, was Godly Fat.

Now there is a new term for it. Godly fat! I can just imagine the scene, no doctor, its not fat, its Godly fat! There is a difference.

I agree I have some myself and it is my insurance policy to get me through the hard times ahead. (lol). Though I will be stocking up on cans of beans, spaghetti, and anything that I can get my hands on, just before the dreadful day of the Lord. Well, we all need at least one last good meal!

Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GT...

2007-11-18T10:09:00.000+13:00

Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GTA. He is accused of having relations with untold numbers of AC female students. But there no evidence has ever emerged on this. It seems like someone would break silence. And while GTA is always faulted, these women are not.

My guess is that GTA's activities are greatly overstated. Or these were the type of women who would not be likely to be harmed by his kind of illicit activity.

I've been informed by others who say they know personally of some AC coeds who were seduced by GTA, and as I recall, at least one of them fathered one of GTA's bastards.

This summer I also learned that GTA reportedly kept one of his mistresses up near the old SEP camp at Orr, Minnesota. The woman -- so I was told by a friend who had visited the old SEP camp this summer and had talked with some people there -- still lives in the area, and she had a daughter with GTA. (My friend's informant had been one of the pioneer SEP campers from 1965.)

I'm not sure we should expect these women to come forward, since they could have been silenced by a mix of shame, religious intimidation, and presumably a monetary payout. Looking at it from their perspective, it's really not in their interest to announce to the world that they were impregnated by (or are the children of) a perverted televangelist.

Speaking of The Journal and Dixon Cartwright, Ken ...

2007-11-18T09:05:00.000+13:00

Speaking of The Journal and Dixon Cartwright, Ken Wesby claims he is at the
Society of Biblical Literature Annual Convention in San Diego:

"November 17 -- No Web Streaming this week, but live VC services from San Diego broadcast over the telephone network. (918-222-7158)

"I will be reporting from the annual meetings of the Society of Biblical Literature (SBL) and joined in the program by Dixon Cartwright, editor of The Journal--News of the Churches of God. These meetings are attended by scholars from all over the world and is the biggest thing in theology."

We look forward to future reports in The Journal. Perhaps.

Mr. Armstrong was carrying all that extra Godly We...

2007-11-18T08:50:00.000+13:00

Mr. Armstrong was carrying all that extra Godly Weight to see him through the trek to Petra!

Paul, likely the whole three and one-half years.

Paul (Channeling the Spirit of Tom Mahon, you may be surprised to learn!)

I'm not certain how these things are supposed to work, but doesn't a person have to be like dead before their spirit can be channeled?

Douglas, it seems your hatred and cabalistic vitriol towards Mr. Armstrong knows no bounds.

I no more hate Herbert Armstrong than I do cobras. They have their place in keeping the ecology in balance, particularly insuring the elimination of the shallow end of the gene pool. However, I don't choose to have a lot of contact with either one. Even dead, each can be deadly, what will all the toxic poisons about.

No, the real point is that Herbert Armstrong did not have the fruit of the Holy Spirit. At least not temperance.

This bottom of the barrel slander is just another piece of evidence against you in the case of God vs The Treacherous Heretics, which will soon "go to court," you may be surprised to learn!

Sigh.

This is a first for me: The judgment of God against me brought by a righteous godly atheist prophet. Is there any money in that? Herbert Armstrong certainly found pecuniary remuneration.

Thanks, Paul.

An allegation I have seen here a couple of times i...

2007-11-18T08:49:00.000+13:00

An allegation I have seen here a couple of times is that HWA had a jet paid for by Third Tithe.

Does anybody know if that is true and is there documentary evidence?

For that matter, there is something strange about all of this. Somewhere, someone has an extraordinary repository of evidence about the HWA years, evidence that has not seen light of day. Why is that? Current Armstrongites need to see that evidence and understand its implications about the spiritual condition of the people involved.
These would be the various records carefully kept in Pasadena all those years.

It is easy to make assertions but we do need documentation to complete the picture, if that documenation has not been destroyed.

Kind of like the incomplete picture surrounding GTA. He is accused of having relations with untold numbers of AC female students. But there no evidence has ever emerged on this. It seems like someone would break silence. And while GTA is always faulted, these women are not.

My guess is that GTA's activities are greatly overstated. Or these were the type of women who would not be likely to be harmed by his kind of illicit activity.

-- Neo

"If a famine is coming, maybe they're carrying the...

2007-11-18T07:47:00.000+13:00

"If a famine is coming, maybe they're carrying their insurance policies with them, where "thieves cannot break though and steal.""

Ah! Good point! Mr. Armstrong was carrying all that extra Godly Weight to see him through the trek to Petra!

Paul

Mr. Paul Anaymous,"the fatted calf …"Interesting y...

2007-11-18T07:21:00.000+13:00

Mr. Paul Anaymous,

"the fatted calf …"

Interesting you should say that.

Have you sat in a grocery store parking lot recently and seen the "large" people walking in and out?

If a famine is coming, maybe they're carrying their insurance policies with them, where "thieves cannot break though and steal."

"But there's one charge from which he cannot be ex...

2007-11-18T06:50:00.000+13:00

"But there's one charge from which he cannot be exonerated: He was fat!"

Douglas, it seems your hatred and cabalistic vitriol towards Mr. Armstrong knows no bounds. HWA was not fat by worldly standards, you may be surprised to know! This bottom of the barrel slander is just another piece of evidence against you in the case of God vs The Treacherous Heretics, which will soon "go to court," you may be surprised to learn!

Primarily, HWA was not fat in the context of gluttony. Being fat due to gluttony is a sin, and is really known as Wordly Fat. Mr. Armstrong, on the other hand, was Godly Fat. For one, he had no control over what he ate in the latter years, as he was surrounded by the Rader Cabal, virtually a Godly prisoner in a sea of cabalous treachery. Secondly, when he was preaching the Gospel around the world, he was forced to eat airplane food and foreign food, which all know contains high levels of white sugar and bleached flour. Thirdly, Bullinger points out that the Apostle Paul's "thorn in his side" may have been a metabolic disorder which would have rendered him on the weighty side. Lastly, do not forget the "Fatted Calf" used in scripture.

I hope this will prove to the AW Cabal that sadly, Douglas is scraping the bottom of the barrel in his hatred against God's End Time Apostle.

Paul (Channeling the Spirit of Tom Mahon, you may be surprised to learn!)

TOM: You said... >>>The state attorney general did...

2007-11-18T06:26:00.000+13:00

TOM:

You said...
>>>The state attorney general didn't wake up one morning and said, "Which church should I investigate today." <<
You got it, Tom. You finally got it. In the case of the WCG, the AG's office had to have a sound, legal foundation on which to proceed; unassailable probable cause; like any prosecutor has to have; otherwise he and the state could open themselves up for charges of abuse of process and official misconduct.
>>Some people, and according to HWA, including Wayne Cole were complicit in informing the attorney general that there were financial irregularities in the church.... This might have been done because of a dislike of Stan Rader, and the perceived influence he had over HWA, but it doesn't justify anyone making false allegations against the church...<<<
I haven't seen HWA quoted saying that C. Wayne Cole on his own personally informed the AG there “financial irregularities.” Just wanting to cooperate with the investigation was enough reason for Armstrong in his “night of long knives”. I don't know what C. Wayne Cole thinks about how church finances were handled under Armstrong in the seventies. He ought to candidly cover this topic in his sermons at Big Sandy COG to put the issue to rest. Cole could have been blissfully unaware of much of it; he probably just wasn't privy to as much of the damaging information as someone like Jack Kessler, Rader's partner. Jack Kessler has first hand knowledge of many of the facts, not the unsubstantiated allegations of a dubious rumor mill. For any in the WCG ministry or on the dummy Board of Elders still who still had a conscience, the knowledge contained in the Kessler letter must have have grated against their nerves.
What I have come to believe is that Wayne Cole and Herman Hoeh were informed about the receivership shortly before it commenced, but deliberately didn't tell Armstrong about it explicitly in advance so he could try to quash it before it got started. While Cole and Hoeh may have wanted Rader out of the way, they both were also probably sick of the way WCG finances were handled, and may have had the best of intentions in mind for Armstrong in the matter, having devoted their entire lives to the WCG. Regardless, the cooperation with the receivership meant Armstrong fired Cole and he threw off Hoeh from his dummy board. Armstrong was completely dependent on Rader for financial and legal advice, and for someone qualified to accompany him on the third tithe jet plane junkets to world leaders. Armstrong's dependency is reflected in Rader's salary, bonus money, and lifetime employment contract. Also, the fact Armstrong signed off on the one-sided agreement, with basically no outside review of counsel representing just the interests of the WCG, only what Rader wanted. Besides, Rader could have threated to expose HWA with what he knew without it getting back to himself. That might have included Rader's knowledge of his relationship with his daughter.

>>Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.<<
At one time, an accountant working in the WCG accounting offices reported Rader to the California State Board of Accountancy the very real conflicts of interest Rader had in doing millions of dollars in business with the WCG while at the same time having the WCG as a client and representing it as an CPA and attorney. Rader wound up supposedly selling his interest in the partnership to prevent the appearance of an unethical conflict of interest. Rader knew he was at the very edge of the law where his actions could be characterized as unethical and possibly illegal, but it is very difficult to prove actual criminal intent when the transactions could possibly be legal if interpreted in another way.

Your conclusions about no financial “mismanagement” in the WCG are wishful thinking at best. The AG had Armstong's and Rader's neck in a noose which he was beginning to tighten up very nicely. Rader's frivolous constitutional legal arguments to attack the receivership had utterly failed. The one thing that saved them from probable prosecution for financial fraud and related charges is that they still had the legislature card to play. They heavily lobbied the legislature in every way imaginable to pass the Petris bill to get their nooses out of the neck. How that WCG bill came to be passed into law at the time it did is undoubtedly a bible study all in itself. After Petris was signed into law, Rader put enormous political pressure on the AG to drop the charges with full page newspaper ads, intending to spend as much as possible, blanketing California with negative swift boat-type attack ads to torpedo his chances at becoming governor. It worked. But there were a substantial number of Californians who strongly disagreed with the AG dropping these fraud cases after millions of tax dollars were spent, and wanted the 1979 financial investigations of the religious hucksters brought to a just conclusion.

Armstrong and Rader were clearly NOT exonerated from the financial fraud and other charges! The AG did not free them from a charge or imputation of guilt; he did not clear Armstrong, pronounce him not guilty, exculpate him, absolve him, or vindicate him on any of the charges. What the AG did do is drop the case against Armstrong, because the Petris legislation was signed into law, and because he was an ambitions politician, who was guided more by political expediency than by moral principle in further prosecuting Armstrong.

Stan

Concerning the website:http://thevesselsofmercy.co...

2007-11-18T06:13:00.000+13:00

Concerning the website:

http://thevesselsofmercy.com

may I say as one who has established professional websites, except for the pretty stock photos it is among the most pathetic useless websites I've seen, with absolutely no other redeeming qualities than the pictures.

Beyond that, it isn't even worth any additional comment.

Oh sure, Herbert Armstrong never never never ever ...

2007-11-18T05:22:00.000+13:00

Oh sure, Herbert Armstrong never never never ever did anything to compromise his place as the idol of idolaters who put him up on a pedestal. He may have had his imperfections, but he had both pure intentions and, more importantly, he was never sent to prison for his crimes because no one could get a conviction.

Moreover, he is NOT a false prophet just because he got the timing wrong.

The Lord and Master has fallen into the cesspool, surrounded by unconverted hirelings, but has come up smelling like roses!

But there's one charge from which he cannot be exonerated:

He was fat!

As a glutton, he even suffered a heart attack which very nearly ended his apostleship on the spot. Fortunately, with the billions of dollars which slipped through his fingers in his corrupt little empire -- which went to nothing particularly useful for mankind -- he had enough for doctors, which, if you recall, he conveniently reinstated when he needed them: Up until then the doctrine was that they were forbidden, except for "corrective surgery" and to get an opinion of what was wrong with you so you could be specific when you went to God, and only God, in faith, for your healing, should it ever occur. Malachi 2 seems oft to have been invoked though, where blessings of the ministry was cursed and deaths occurred immediately upon the anointing.

No, the one thing that would have definitely kept Herbert Armstrong out of the Kingdom of God, in which he set the worst, most visible example is that he was...

The
Roly Poly Apostle!

Poor old Tom can’t even remember who said what in...

2007-11-18T04:44:00.000+13:00

Poor old Tom can’t even remember who said what in this blog so how can he be expected to have any facts correct about situations that happened over 25 years ago.

He attributed a question I asked to Dixon.

Sorry Tom but you have just shoot down your own credibility.

You don’t get facts straight even when they are in writing right before you.

moose

This comment suggests that you were an ordained mi...

2007-11-18T03:51:00.000+13:00

This comment suggests that you were an ordained minister?

Bamboo Bends was quoting Anonymous, so it is Anonymous, not BB, who was the ordained minister. (My guess at who Anonymous is -- our own Dennis Diehl perhaps?)

Tom said:>>>>Anyway, their accusation against the ...

2007-11-18T03:31:00.000+13:00

Tom said:
>>>>Anyway, their accusation against the church of financial mismanagement was exposed as false. So that proves that the case against Rader or HWA had no basis in fact.<<<

Dixon>>>Who exposed the accusations as false?<<<

Firstly, asking me questions doesn't prove that what I said is incorrect. If you have evidence that they were guilty, then post it.

Secondly, the state attorney didn't file any charges against either Stan Rader or HWA.

Thirdly, ministers circulating rumours and innuendos about financial impropriety on the part of Rader and HWA are not indisputable facts that will stand up to legal scrutiny in a court of law. Hence, the two men were exonerated by the state attorney.

On behalf of your friend, you may have been disappointed by the attorney's decision, but the facts speak for themselves.

My-two-cents>>>Tom, you're pathetic. Nothing but r...

2007-11-18T03:02:00.000+13:00

My-two-cents

>>>Tom, you're pathetic. Nothing but rancor and anger and hate come out of your mouth.<<<

I was almost tempted to say, you're welcome to your misconceived opinion, but on second thoughts, you are not.