Comments on Ambassador Watch: Putting Humpty Together Again

Tommy-boy, you're forgetting one thing, in your ze...

2008-01-21T07:48:00.000+13:00

Tommy-boy, you're forgetting one thing, in your zeal to present your own legalistic (and, one presumes, zionist) CoG religion as being the best brand of butter that's ever been spread:

The "bible", as it exists today (as it has existed in point of fact for many thousands of years) is a work of FICTION.

Keep the Sabbath. Keep all the Holy Days you want. Keep fleecing your dad's membership for money.

(Ever read the book "The Tithing Dilemma?" Really good read. I highly recommend it to all ministers of CoG misery.)

Keep living in the style to which you have become accustomed. (Not a shabby one at all, I would wager.)

The fact of the matter is, there just ain't no Kingdom coming, sonny-boy. Even Junior admits that. (Hell, Senior admitted it, with his sermon from the mount, well over a decade ago.)

If (and I state this as a very qualitative IF) there is, indeed, something, somewhere, "out there", that's bigger than us, the universe, and everything the universe contains, do you really, truly believe that that thing, whatever it may be, cares one iota that you went to the Feast of Tabernacles faithfully every year, and that you sang all the white supremacist songs and that you had X number of people giving you their hard-earned money?

All of my above rant doesn't even touch on the fact that your daddy dearest just wanted to get the name of his church into The Journal, so CoG-hoppers looking for another splinter to try on for size, would try his(yours) on for awhile. Presumably, until they got tired of giving you and your pops thirty percent of their income, and decided to hop to another splinter, in search of "the truth".

I refuse to dignify your breathless defensive "We're not like all the other CoGs!! Really really really we're not!!" When you immediately follow that declaration with "But we keep the Sabbath and the Holy Days!" Bla-bla-di-bla-bla.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it must be a flying pig. Gotta love CoG logic. It never, ever, changes.

Oh, another thought occurred to me! I read one co...

2008-01-20T10:51:00.000+13:00

Oh, another thought occurred to me! I read one comment about a resurrection of the old ideas on prophecy..... I must tell you that if you knew the conclusions Dad and I and the Scholars have come to independently of each other on this subject you would be astounded! One of our Scholars has studied the book of Isaih for over a decade and he agrees totally with our conclusions! The prophetic picture for the not to distant futher, in my opinion will shock you! It could not be in more diametric opposition to what some have formerly believed! Let me say this: as far as I am concerned it is all good news! But then, as I stated, this is just my opinion. However, I was delighted to find that several lettered Bible Scholars are in total agreement with me!

I just want to know the truth!

"You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."
John 8:32

When in any of your past experiences has the so called "truth" set you free? I remember the "truth" of our former association as putting people in bondage! That is not to say there wasn't some valuable information and training received because there most definitely was.

What I am saying is there is a brand new thing emerging...so I urge you to "just Watch"! See if what I am saying is true!

As the apostle Paul said: "Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."

We have entered the "information age" and along with it the emergence of the power of the individual! I believe we are in for some very exciting times!

Tom Carrozzo

Well, glad to see our symposium has generated so m...

2008-01-20T10:37:00.000+13:00

Well, glad to see our symposium has generated so much discussion. Most of the comments have validated the concept my Dad and I had in the beginning, over a decade ago, when we thought of this idea in the first place.

Just to set the record straight: We have no intention of resurrecting anything of our past association with the WWCOG! We are starting off in a brand new direction by reaching out to our former associates as well as many other sabbath keeping and non-sabbath keeping groups alike. Members of CG7, Seventh day adventists, LDS, Catholics and others have all expressed an interest in what we are doing. One group has transitioned 25 Sunday keeping congregations to keeping the Sabbath and Holy days! Something is definitely going on!

There is a long and fascinating story of how all of this came about that is too lengthy for this forum. However I can say that our intention is to get the latest streams of thought from the most capable scholars, ministers and lay people we can on every issue to see if we can arrive at a consensus and a core of beliefs that we can agree upon. There is a new breeze blowing accross the landscape as it relates to religion. I believe we will see many amazing things as we come together in the right spirit with the intent of simply seeking the truth. All are invited to participate; all are included. The old hierarchal structures have collapsed and I say Thank God for that.

Please reserve a modicum of judgement if you can because I believe something new and exciting will emerge from our symposiums. We already have requests for up to as many as 4 more in different parts of the country. We'll just have to wait and see where it all leads.

Thanks so much to all of you for your interest. I hope to meet and talk to some of you as we go forward.

Tom Carrozzo

Sorry if I touched a nerve with my comments re: Ma...

2008-01-16T06:05:00.000+13:00

Sorry if I touched a nerve with my comments re: Mark Armstrong. I am basing my view not just on The Journal's "Time to cry wolf" headline of Mark's comments, but on the COGInternational web site which, if you spend more than five minutes reading through, it is plain to see that it's just another splinter like clever Gerry's or the Pack party faithful.

Excusing a minister of misery just because his family members are old/disabled is still no excuse for fleecing tithes from the membership. And saying Marky Mark needs to support his two brothers because they're Deaf pretty much refutes everything the Americans With Disabilities Act has fought for, for over twenty years.

So, sorry, if my view of Marky Mark offends some. But I'm not changing it. He's cut from the same cloth, and seems to be following in Daddy's footsteps pretty closely.

As for anonymous' comment, re: Marky Mark's sincerity, how can you judge that sincerity, if you've never met him, or know little about him? You must know even less about the CoGs, because Marky Mark's schtick about how "All the other CoGs are mistreating THEIR members, but let them all come to MY church!!" is a fairly standard misdirection tactic used by the ministers of misery.

Of course, your protestations to the contrary, I believe you're just another Armstrong shill, as is clear from the way you're so staunchly defending Marky Mark.

>>>>Mind control, scare tactics and physical abuse...

2008-01-16T02:10:00.000+13:00

>>>>Mind control, scare tactics and physical abuse were used on children to keep them in HArmsrongism, or haven't you read any testimonies from child survivors of armstrongism.
BTW, all children of religious adherents are raised to be the next generation of that religion.<<<

Not so for everyone.

My parents didn't abuse me or use mind control and we didn't abuse or use mind control on our children.
In fact it was our children who opened our eyes to what was really happening at HDQ when they went to
AC.

Just because one was in the WCG doesn't mean they left their common sense outside the door.

There were loving parents in the church. Just as there are abusive parents out in the 'real world' who have no religion.

>>>>I really can't help but think Mark could do so...

2008-01-16T01:58:00.000+13:00

>>>>I really can't help but think Mark could do something more productive with his time. And his mom can go get a job. Ditto the deaf siblings. Anything short of closing the place down is a shame.

Mark Lax<<<<

What type of job do you suggest Mark's 70+ year old mother get?

Would you kick your elder mother out to work when she's not worked outside the home before?

Tom Mahon saith: The above comment (Actually his f...

2008-01-16T01:55:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon saith: The above comment (Actually his following comment) is loaded with irrational (rendering evil where none was given) prejudice. What about all the other children that have attended, with their parents, all the other thousands of churches in the world: were they also prisoners? (Yup, basically,such is the evil of religion, now you are catching on)Or was it only WCG that had barb wire (Straw man, irrational)and watch towers (Another straw man and irrationality)around its perimeter (Irrational)to prevent the children from escaping? Why not ask if there was a moat?

Mind control, scare tactics and physical abuse were used on children to keep them in HArmsrongism, or haven't you read any testimonies from child survivors of armstrongism.

So are you now flip flopping and implying that it is better to grow up in an ordinary church, (which is false religion in your viewpoint) than it is to grow up as a churchless youth? No one can grow up and be special like you because they are not special like you so they are stuck with false religion or no religion.

BTW, all children of religious adherents are raised to be the next generation of that religion.
Including yours, unless your wife is righteous and is barren.

Although I agree with this: "Apart from right-wing...

2008-01-15T22:45:00.000+13:00

Although I agree with this: "Apart from right-wing political views and the fundamentalism, there seems to be a sincerity and less conning in Mark Armstrong than many of the others. As someone once said, he's got a mother and two disabled younger brothers to support with the family business."

I really can't help but think Mark could do something more productive with his time. And his mom can go get a job. Ditto the deaf siblings. Anything short of closing the place down is a shame.

Mark Lax

Bamboo_bends said...>>>>Mark Tabladillo, mentioned...

2008-01-15T21:40:00.000+13:00

Bamboo_bends said...

>>>>Mark Tabladillo, mentioned that he was a WCG prisoner since childhood. I can't imagine how tormenting that would have been for those forced to attend as children. Thank goodness I had a churchless youth.<<<<

The above comment is loaded with irrational prejudice. What about all the other children that have attended, with their parents, all the other thousands of churches in the world: were they also prisoners? Or was it only WCG that had barb wire and watch towers around its perimeter to prevent the children from escaping?

I second that, Anonymous. I don't want to bring u...

2008-01-15T19:33:00.000+13:00

I second that, Anonymous. I don't want to bring up any of the familiar details because we all know them. I simply submit that we can NEVER know what Mark has been through.

GTA is an easy target, but throughout his life including the very end, his family remained intact, and was there for him. Considering WCG doctrines, I don't know how this could be, but it seems there must have been a lot of unconditional love in GTA's family.

And, as always, I hope everyone feels free to bash me or my opinion if it makes them feel better. For the record, I never was one of the AC/WCG "good ol' boys".

BB

On the comments about Mark Armstrong, I have never...

2008-01-15T19:03:00.000+13:00

On the comments about Mark Armstrong, I have never met him, have little in common with him from what I know of him, but his public condemnation of greedy COGS operating in his grandfather's name sounds sincere and like a glimmer of honesty and growth, and I for one respect him for it and am uncomfortable with the negative comments expressed toward this particular public statement from the leading male heir of the clan. Apart from right-wing political views and the fundamentalism, there seems to be a sincerity and less conning in Mark Armstrong than many of the others. As someone once said, he's got a mother and two disabled younger brothers to support with the family business. Somehow Mark Armstrong gets slightly more sympathy from me than most of the other COG leaders, don't know why for sure. Maybe because I've never heard stories of him meaning to hurt anyone.

Getting back on topic, allow me to rehearse the se...

2008-01-15T15:52:00.000+13:00

Getting back on topic, allow me to rehearse the self-obvious reasons as to why Al Carrozzo's good intentions will fail. I believe that too much time has elapsed, and too many rigid hierarchies have been formed for there to be any sort of ecumenical movement amongst the ACOGs. Big time ego is involved in all of the splinter groups, or miniature "personality" cults if you will. There's also been way too much name calling, and the hard feelings that accompany it. You can only call someone Laodecean so many times (as if there were such a thing in the first place!). There have been accusations and counter accusations of heresy, as well.

About the only positive aspect to having so many splinters is that a member of a real hardcore splinter can join another if he/she is ever disfellowshipped. I know of any number of people who have successfully, and in some cases unintentionally, transitioned away from the whole Armstrong movement by sequential membership in several of the major splinters.

Having said all of that, I am sure that Al Carrozzo is sincere in what he is suggesting. He was certainly one of the early reformers, and I can't think of a better person to attempt what he is suggesting. Still, probably his best chances would be in promoting unity amongst those who consider themselves as non-aligned, or independent. But, hasn't Ron Dart already done this to one extent or another through his organization?

You also have to ask yourself, is the Armstrong movement even worth saving? I believe that not only is it a spent force, but also it is forever tainted by the horrible leadership methodology which permeates the entire ministry. This is largely why the Tkach era WCG failed. You can take away the bad and toxic doctrines, but you can't elliminate inbred and engrained bad governance which ends up contaminating the new, more Christian doctrines.

Incidentally, if anyone wants to see some real teaching, go to the Shadows blog, and read some of J's most recent and very excellent work. Oh, I'd remiss if I didn't add one targetted and specific recommenndation: Tom, please don't go to read at J's blog. We want you to stay in Armstrongism the rest of your life!!!

BB

Robert stated: "God is no prune."Agreed. She isn't...

2008-01-15T15:44:00.000+13:00

Robert stated: "God is no prune."

Agreed. She isn't a rhubarb or a fig either... surely you meant prude?

What amazes me, Robert, is how you can use those OT passages to excuse Ted's bonking and abuse of power while "preachin' the gospel." That's just one step away from living the life of Reilly oneself and saying...

heck, ain't so bad, Ted did worse
and David and Hosea.

In fact it's almost an antinomian position. Which is an exceedingly strange posture for a Messianic like yourself.

I propose a conference for ex-members and minister...

2008-01-15T14:51:00.000+13:00

I propose a conference for ex-members and ministers on how to best encourage those who are still traped in armstrongism to leave these distructive groups by helping them to see armstrongism for what it is.

but but...the Bible is the world's best and final ...

2008-01-15T12:49:00.000+13:00

but but...the Bible is the world's best and final authority on morality!

It's a good thing God's chosen ones were also rapscallions so that when we rapscallion, we can relax.

We're all men after God's own heart..whew.

>>> many of us owe him a debt of gratitude for exp...

2008-01-15T12:40:00.000+13:00

>>> many of us owe him a debt of gratitude for exposing the moral hypocrisy of the church over GTA's lifestyle.

Well Gavin, you certainly haven't pondered the good book if you think GTAs lifestyle was anything to raise our eyebrows at!

Consider how God told Hosea to take a prostitute for a wife (because the land itself was defiled).

"Go take yourself a wife of harlotry And children of harlotry." (Hosea 1:2).

God even allowed those poor destitute of His people to benefit from the "hire" of Tyre (fornication), it was to be set apart for the Lord, "it will not be treasured nor laid up, for her gain will be for those who dwell before the Lord". (Isaiah 23:17-18).

God is no prune, He even commanded one of His servants to marry a prostitute!

Well I would say perhaps God is not as moral as I thought, demanding one of His servants to marry a whore, but you know it is us who demands absolute holiness, not God! Let's remember that before pointing the finger at Garner Ted!

I see that none are eggs-actly scrambling to put H...

2008-01-15T11:15:00.000+13:00

I see that none are eggs-actly scrambling to put Humpty together again.Perhaps a friar might do the job.Who wants a yoke around their necks again.

Peetter van Huygentromp

sorry....the pedantic tempestuous was a bit off on...

2008-01-15T10:05:00.000+13:00

sorry....the pedantic tempestuous was a bit off on a couple of those

Humpty Herbert sat on a wallTom is sure he just ca...

2008-01-15T09:56:00.000+13:00

Humpty Herbert sat on a wall
Tom is sure he just can't fall
All the Kings horses and all the Kings men
Have re-assembled the pieces together again.

Hickory Dickory Dock
Literalism is such a crock
God's no more one
It's no more fun
Hickory Dickory Crock

Hey diddle diddle
Got stuck in the middle
The clowns gave the brethren the boot
Evangelicals laughed to see such a site
And the PG ran off with the loot.

Little Joe Peep has lost his sheep
And doesn't care if he finds them
Leave them alone
They'll find a new home
Clapping our hands without them

Twinkle twinkle see our scars
How we wonder what they are
From head to toe..can make ya cry
Like a meteor from the sky
Twinke twikle , lots of scars
Crazy, looney, bunch of liars

Ba ba black sheep
Shouldn't feel that way
Yes sir,yes sir..you caused it day by day
Bucks for the master
Some for the dame
None for those that found it insane

Herbert had a litte lamb
And fleeched it well you know
And every where that Herbert went
The Gospel went to hell

Great, another CoG to add to the watch list - Mark...

2008-01-15T09:44:00.000+13:00

Great, another CoG to add to the watch list - Mark Armstrong is a real piece of work. E. g.,

"The activities of the Garner Ted Armstrong Evangelistic Association are paid for by tithes, offerings and donations freely given"

Ummmmkay Marky Mark, "tithes" are never freely given. Cognitive dissonance much?

Mark Tabladillo, mentioned that he was a WCG priso...

2008-01-15T09:38:00.000+13:00

Mark Tabladillo, mentioned that he was a WCG prisoner since childhood. I can't imagine how tormenting that would have been for those forced to attend as children. Thank goodness I had a churchless youth.

Oh it wasn't so bad if you didn't mind being told you were born wicked evil and selfish from the womb, didn't mind being the weirdo at school and getting beat up for not keeping Xmas, so that you could attend sabbath services where they gave you no credit for what you tried to do at school, only to be told you have an evil heart. Your education as a members kid is lacking because you didn't attend God's Imperial Schools and you couldn't possibly understand anything spiritual because you weren't baptized. If you didn't mind deacons spying on you every minute (with attitudes like Tom Mahon).

It wasn't so bad if you didn't mind paying enough money in 3 tithes over 34 years to a church that you could have put yourself through med school and invested in a retirement.

Not bad at all.

What doesn't kill you just makes your life shorter.

PS: Imperial schools is now flat as a parking lot. Do I believe in God? You bet! Only God has the sense of humor to destroy Herbie's grand elite empire through the very elite Imperial School children he created. The wheel-o-karma spins around.

Mark Armstrong had a hernia after reading about Da...

2008-01-15T09:31:00.000+13:00

Mark Armstrong had a hernia after reading about Dave Pack and his "clarion call." Poor old Mark, torn between loathing of his childhood religion and the need to keep mom and himself in the style to which they're accustomed.

some great sage said:"Men need religion like a fis...

2008-01-15T09:10:00.000+13:00

some great sage said:

"Men need religion like a fish needs a bicycle."

Corky said: 'The cat of truth got out of the bag o...

2008-01-15T08:43:00.000+13:00

Corky said: 'The cat of truth got out of the bag of Christianity over 1900 years ago with the failed prophecy of Jesus' return.

Yes, the ball has been dropped in spite of 1900 years of apologetics. Things just didn't happen according to the program and proved the whole show to be a hoax'

The article in New Horizons Sept/)ct 2007 addresses this. See www.cgom.org

Tom Mahon says.No you didn't! You just ducked the ...

2008-01-15T08:38:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon says.
No you didn't! You just ducked the question, as everyone here does. You all are just critics of a system, but when asked, what would you put in its place? You and the cabal erect a wall of silence.

How about putting nothing in its place? What do you put in the place of cigarette smoking? Cigars? Chewing tobacco? Snuff?

No, you put nothing in its place. We need food or we starve, we need water or we dehydrate, we need clothes and shelter or we die of exposure to the elements.

Without religion nothing happens. The reason is, we don't need it. It is totally unnecessary for our survival, or for our happiness and totally unnecessary for our well being in any way, shape or form.

We simply - don't need it. On the contrary, religion needs us, "the duped" - to support it or else it will fold up like origami.

A god doesn't need your money and property to operate, the parasites do.

I know Tom would like to be a parasite and rule over people with an iron fist - but - he just ain't good enough.