Comments on Ambassador Watch: UCG Warns the World!

How do you know the "pagan gods" are nonexistent?B...

2007-12-28T07:18:00.001+13:00

How do you know the "pagan gods" are nonexistent?

Because when we Christians came in and smashed their idols, outlawed their superstitions, and reconsecrated their sacred precincts as churches, the gods uttered not a peep of protest. Surely after all these centuries the gods would have done something if they really existed.

When Christians don't know something they ridicule and demonize.

So, you are contending that the WB network's "Supernatural" is a work of Christians out to demonise the defunct and forgotten pagan gods?

Many pre-christian communities understood much of the divine better then orthodox Christianity does today.

You mean the divine's need to be constantly appeased through the sacrifice of animals and humans, or the divine's penchant for cannibalism, incest, buggering boys, and abducting and impregnating maidens, or the divine's need for temple prostitution? Thanks anyway, but I'll take orthodox Christianity's poor understanding of the divine over the pagan understanding of the divine any day.

Do you believe everything the good Christian church fathers tell you?

No.

How do you know the "pagan gods" are nonexistent?B...

2007-12-28T07:18:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said: He did not teach his disciples to ...

2007-12-28T07:02:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said: He did not teach his disciples to celebrate his birthday as the Romans celebrated the birth of Mithra.

First of all, there is no contemporary evidence that the Romans celebrated the birth of Mithras in the time of Christ, so of course Jesus would not have told anyone to celebrate His birthday as the Romans celebrated the birth of Mithras. Also, there is no contemporary or near contemporary evidence that later in the 200s A.D., when the Roman Emperors established the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun on Dec. 25, the Romans were celebrating that festival as the birthday of Mithras. Anyway, Christians do not celebrate Christ's birth as the Romans, or whoever, celebrated the birth of Mithras -- the slight resemblances between Mithraic rites and Christian rites have been exaggerated. Similarity does not equal genealogy.

The mythical St. Paul may have done that. "Paul" brought the Eucharist into Christianity from Mithraism.

If "Paul" brought the Eucharist into Christianity from Mithraism, then who brought the Passover Seder and the Kiddish into Judaism from Mithraism? We know from the Book of Jubilees that even before the time of Christ, the Jews blessed and shared bread and wine during Passover. So, according to your hypothesis, Mithraism was a widespread and popular a cult even hundreds of years before Christ, and so popular that the Jews were influenced to borrow a Mithaic rite and insert it into their Passover festival.

Tom said: >>>MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!You forget t...

2007-12-28T06:49:00.000+13:00

Tom said: >>>MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!<<<

You forget to add, everyone who is deceived!

No, those who aren't deceived should have a Merry Christmas too. Why should the deceived have all the fun?

Minimalist said: Hey Christians, you tout your Jes...

2007-12-28T06:45:00.000+13:00

Minimalist said: Hey Christians, you tout your Jesus as bigger than Julius Caesar but you can't even come up with a birthdate for your fictional godman. Julivs Caesar was born Jul 13, -100. So why can't you dummies come up with some evidence for your godman ?

My grandmother never knew her own date of birth, and as a result nobody among her descendants knows her date of birth either. So far we haven't found any record of her birth despite all our attempts to find it. I guess that means neither she nor I nor any of her children and grandchildren and greatgrandchildren are real. We're just myths invented decades later by believers in Olarism in order to come up with an explanation for our nonexistence. And our nonexistence would also explain our inability to find our grandmother's birth record, I guess.

Also, Christians do not tout Jesus as "bigger" than Julius Caesar. On the contrary, we revel in His abysmally humble and obscure origins, His ordinariness, His working-class status, and His ignominious execution as a criminal, traitor, and blasphemer. He was not born in a palace, but in a stable, and His only crown was made of thorns and His only throne was a cross. He was not a priest or any prominent person, feted and praised for His greatness or His wealth. He commanded no armies, won no battles, conquered no nations. He was a nobody. If He were not God Incarnate, and was not risen from the dead, no one would have ever remembered Him or written more than a few pen scratchings about Him. In His lowliness, poverty, and utter commonness, Jesus is unlike any other religious figure of human history, not even those of whom myths of divine or miraculous origins were later written.

Really, I find it difficult to believe anyone would be so desperate to disbelieve in Christianity that they would seriously entertain the mushbrained argument you have presented.

Dennis said That's the problem. The birth narratives were added to show Jesus was God but the geneologies were added to show he was a descendent of David which was required to be the Messiah. They tended to not think ahead very much when it came to contradictions.

Yeah, it would never have occurred to the early Christians to slice out one or other of these allegedly contradictory genealogies to cover up such discrepancies. Instead they accepted and canonised both the Matthean and the Lucan genealogy of Christ as divinely-inspired and accurate. Christians would never think to rewrite the Gospels to get rid of all those contradictions -- they just weren't very bright, I guess.

But wait, I thought "the NT has been edited to incorporate the traditions of the Rome's mystery religions," as Anonymous claims. If the New Testament has been edited and rewritten, how come it never occurred to anybody to tweak or slice out all those bits that the Raymond Brownites claim to be contradictions?

Some say one is the geneology of Joseph and the other of Mary, but this is just apologetic.

No, they are obviously both the genealogies of Joseph, as they plainly say. Early Christian tradition claims Mary also was of the House of David, which if true would mean she would likely be descended from many of the same individuals named in the biblical genealogies of Jesus, but be that as it may, the scriptures explicitly say that they were Joseph's genealogies.

As for why it would matter that Jesus, who was not Joseph's biological son, should be presented as Joseph's son, I go into that and related matters here:

http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/jeconiah.html

and again here:

http://graceandknowledge.faithweb.com/jeconiah2.html

Oh, and by the way, did you notice that, as I predicted, the Catholic Church still read aloud the same Nativity narratives of Saints Matthew and Luke on Christmas, and acclaimed them as "the Word of the Lord" and "the Gospel of the Lord"? Perhaps the Nazareth creche in St. Peter's Square doesn't mean the Catholic Church is about to change the Gospel accounts.

Elsewhere on the news wires this weekend: research...

2007-12-23T13:51:00.000+13:00

Elsewhere on the news wires this weekend: researchers think they've found the "wolf pagan shrine" where the first "December 25 Christmas" was marked.

http://www.att.net/s/editorial.dll?pnum=1&bfromind=7406&eeid=5598151&_sitecat=1505&dcatid=0&eetype=article&render=y&ac=1&ck=&ch=ne&rg=blsadstrgt&_lid=332&_lnm=tg+ne+topnews&ck=

"Why would this be important since Joseph is not J...

2007-12-23T13:30:00.000+13:00

"Why would this be important since Joseph is not Jesus' biological father?"

There is a tradition that Joseph WAS the biological father Jesus.

Sylvia Brown in the Mystical Life of Jesus claims Jesus was the son of Mary and Joseph. A "normal" family in every way. Except Jesus was special.

So much we don't know. The NT has been edited to incorporate the traditions of the Rome's mystery religions. Much of this makes no sense and can not be believed.

The virgin birth is the case in point. It did not happen.

Byker Bob said:Dennis,I have to admit that it is a...

2007-12-23T11:04:00.000+13:00

Byker Bob said:

Dennis,

I have to admit that it is a bit confusing that Matthew (or the author thereof) provides a geneology tracing Joseph's lineage back to King David. Why would this be important since Joseph is not Jesus' biological father?

That's the problem. The birth narratives were added to show Jesus was God but the geneologies were added to show he was a descendent of David which was required to be the Messiah. They tended to not think ahead very much when it came to contradictions.

Some say one is the geneology of Joseph and the other of Mary, but this is just apologetic.

If God is Jesus literal father, the line ends with God and goes not back a bit to anyone....

"...agents of the Satan..."I'm so glad you're not ...

2007-12-23T08:53:00.000+13:00

"...agents of the Satan..."

I'm so glad you're not my neighbor.

D said:>>>NO HOLY DAYS, NO THIRD TITHE, NO FASTING...

2007-12-23T07:29:00.000+13:00

D said:

>>>NO HOLY DAYS, NO THIRD TITHE, NO FASTING, NO SPOKESMAN CLUB! ITS JUST CHRIST! ACCEPT HIM NOW AND PUT AWAY THE IDEAS OF MEN!<<<

Those who have accepted Christ are never afraid to say who they are. On the other hand, those who are agents of the Satan, always hide behind some silly nick name.

>>>MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!<<<

You forget to add, everyone who is deceived!

'Somehow the truth manages to sneak past all the f...

2007-12-23T07:04:00.000+13:00

'Somehow the truth manages to sneak past all the former wcg brain washed fanatics.
THE TRUTH OF CHRISTMAS
the "TRUTH,"'

Ho Ho Ho another well indoctrinated Christian soul...

I'm sorry, but you don't have a clue. Jesus was an observant Jew.

He kept Holy Days. He did not teach his disciples to celebrate his birthday as the Romans celebrated the birth of Mithra.

The mythical St. Paul may have done that. "Paul" brought the Eucharist into Christianity from Mithraism.

Whoever brought a celebration of the DEATH OF MITHRA into Christianity may have also brought the celebration of the BIRTH OF MITHRA into Christianity.

It happened early, and the good church fathers were involved.

You don't need to have Jesus in Christmas... nor do you need to have Mithra in Christmas.

Winter celebrations are not empty without Jesus. They are lovely all on their own.

Christ said He spoke only the words of the Father....

2007-12-23T03:07:00.000+13:00

Christ said He spoke only the words of the Father. A woman can speak, even in church, if she speaks only the words of the Father and doesn't speak as a woman.

We're going to get figs from the presidential cand...

2007-12-22T19:54:00.000+13:00

We're going to get figs from the presidential candidates in 2008?

How Millennial, what with the fig trees and all! The true dawning of the age of Aquarius!

Britain exported its cults to America and the crim...

2007-12-22T19:49:00.000+13:00

Britain exported its cults to America and the criminals to Australia.

I think Australia got the better deal. America has been paying for that move ever since.

Who would have thought 231 years after Independence American's would give a fig about their Presidential Candidate's religion?

"D", your points would have been better made witho...

2007-12-22T19:44:00.000+13:00

"D", your points would have been better made without caps-lock.

Somehow the truth manages to sneak past all the fo...

2007-12-22T19:37:00.000+13:00

Somehow the truth manages to sneak past all the former wcg brain washed fanatics.
THE TRUTH OF CHRISTMAS
the "TRUTH," is that Jamestown,VA has continuously celebrtated Christmas since its beginning IN 1607. Only the wealthy and elite PURITANS who paid their own way to the "new world," in order to "BUILD A CITY ON A HILL," IN 1620, condemned the observance of Christmas. The Puritans also gave us the "witch hunts," and public stocks and flaylings.

The common people who settled in Jamestown, mostly indentured slaves brought from England and France to work off their debts sought solace in Christ's promise at Christmas time.

The "TRUTH," is that Christmas was celebrated in EGYPT since as early as the second century.(CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA)

The "TRUTH," is that in 385, ETHERIA of Bourdeax wrote of the Nativity feasts in Jerusalem.

The "TRUTH," is that at Capadocia, in 379 Gregory of Nyssa's sermons are proof positive that Christmas was already celebrated there.

The "TRUTH," is that at Antioch in 386 Chrysostom preached a sermon where he demonstarted that Zachery as High priest entered the temple on Day of Atonement and recieved announcement of John's conception in September, six months later Christ was concieved in march and born in December.

The "TRUTH," is that the Armenian Orthodox Church, which can actually trace its roots to the first century Christians, celebrates Christmas on January 6, just two weeks later than the 25th. Until the fourth century, all Christian churches celebrated Christmas on January 6th. Then, the Epiphany was celebrated on the 6th and Christmas on december 25th. In the fourth century the Armenians who never had pagan festivals, feared december 25 was to close to pagan festivals, so they kept the original date, and they have the records to prove it.

The "TRUTH," is that the Saturnalia ends on December 21st, not december 25th and only far reaching fanatics still attempt to attach it to Christmas festivities.

The "TRUTH," is that observance of Christmas has been celebrated in Christians Churches continuously since at least the 4th Century!

The "TRUTH," is that as far back as Justin Martyr and Tertullian, in has been known that the Vatican actually has the census records that Joseph and Mary traveled to register for, and this proves the time of year that jesus was born at.

The "TRUTH," is that the manger scene which armstrong and other cult leaders claim is nimrod, was "TRUTHFULLY," started by St. Francis of Assisi, in 1223. There was a misinterpretation of Isaiah 1:3 which accounts for the ox and ass.

The "TRUTH," is that Christmas carols and hymns are not as armstrong declared odes to Nimrod, but,"PRUDENTIUS," in the fourth century was the first to hymn the nativity.

The "TRUTH," is that 'yule logs,' which armstrong claimed to be satanic in nature to bring back the dead sun god, was actually only first lighted in England as a public ceremony in 1577.

The "TRUTH," is that the Christmas tree that garner ted swore was mentioned in Jerimiah 31:31, was actually first mentioned in Strasburg, Germany in 1605. it probably started from an arab geographer in the 10th century. The first Christmas trees were introduced to England and France by Princess Helena of Mecklenberg in 1840.

MYTHS that CULTS use to DISPROVE CHRISTMAS:
1. IT WAS TO COLD FOR SHEPHERDS TO BE IN THE FIELDS!
TRUTH: King David's men were in the fields protecting Nabl's sheep all winter and kept them safe until the spring shearing time. 1Sa. 2:25.
2. MANGER SCENE WAS ACTUALLY NIMROD!
TRUTH: MITHRA OR NIMROD WAS BORN IN THE MOUNTAINS, CHRIST IN THE GROTTO! MITHRA'S ADORING SHEPERDS WERE BORROWED FROM CHRIST RATHER THAN VICE VERSA!
3. GIFT GIVING IS NOT BIBLICAL!
TRUTH: CHRIST IS THE FIRST CHRISTMAS GIFT. JOHN 3:16 FOR GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD HE GAVE HIS ONLY SON!
LUKE 2:10"...FOR I BRING YOU GOOD TIDINGS OF GREAT JOY FOR ALL MANKIND!"
4. ARMSTRONG CLAIMED THE BIRTH OF CHRIST WAS HIDDEN BY GOD.
TRUTH: LUKE 2: 13"AND SUDDENLY THERE WAS A MULTITUDE IN THE HEAVENS PRAISING GOD!"
THE BIBLE CLEARLY SHOWS THAT THE NIGHT TIME SKIES WERE ILLUMINATED THROUGHOUT ALL JUDEA. THE LIGHTS WERE SO BRIGHT THAT THE SHEPERDS DECLRED, "LET US GO NOW," AND THEY WERE ABLE TO SEE THROUGH THE DARK NIGHT AND FIND THE HOLY FAMILY BY FOLLOWING THE BRILLIANTLY LIGHTED SKIES!
The "TRUTH," is that the birth of Christ was so well documented by nayural events that astronomers today are still attempting to solve the mystery of why the nighttime skies became as bright as day!

The above are only a few of real, provable truths about Christmas. Its time to put an end to armstrongism once and for all.

CHRIST IS ALL YOU NEED!
Armstrong, like other pharasical groups have never accepted the completeness of Christ.

ITS ALWAYS CHRIST PLUS SOMETHING ELSE! NO! STOP IT! ITS JUST CHRIST!

NO HOLY DAYS, NO THIRD TITHE, NO FASTING, NO SPOKESMAN CLUB! ITS JUST CHRIST! ACCEPT HIM NOW AND PUT AWAY THE IDEAS OF MEN!

MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYONE!

"the baggage of gnostic misunderstanding"I like th...

2007-12-22T19:27:00.000+13:00

"the baggage of gnostic misunderstanding"

I like that...

It is not always clear whether a response to obvio...

2007-12-22T19:24:00.000+13:00

It is not always clear whether a response to obvious nonsensical satire is itself obvious nonsensical satire or it is a response laden with the baggage of gnostic misunderstanding from a person stuck in the Fifties missing the obvious rich ridicule of irony through the adherence to the obsessions of abject nuttiness.

"So there you have it: An absolute authority thoro...

2007-12-22T18:52:00.000+13:00

"So there you have it: An absolute authority thoroughly researched and straight from the horse's mouth -- or some part of the horse's anatomy at least. Pagan gods exist and live among us... and if you want mild weather, they can accommodate you until the hunters show up and the brothers kill them as they do the other demons."

Ho Ho Ho a well indoctrinated Christian soul.... ;)

Many pre-christian communities understood much of the divine better then orthodox Christianity does today.

When Christians don't know something they ridicule and demonize.

They seem to always pull out the "demons" as weapons when they don't have any good answers.

A very closed minded lot.

"Demonization is the reinterpretation of polytheistic deities as demons by other religions, generally monotheistic ones. Rather than denying the existence of the other religion's pantheon entirely, the proselytizer says instead that they are not truly gods but demons trying to deceive their followers. Demonization is most closely associated with Christian missionaries to pagans during the spread of Christianity, though Judaism, Islam, and other religions have had similar practices; for instance, some strains of Hinduism considered the Buddha an incarnation of Vishnu sent to deceive people."

Dennis,I have to admit that it is a bit confusing ...

2007-12-22T18:43:00.000+13:00

Dennis,

I have to admit that it is a bit confusing that Matthew (or the author thereof) provides a geneology tracing Joseph's lineage back to King David. Why would this be important since Joseph is not Jesus' biological father?

Even a believer should be skeptical regarding scriptural inerrancy. The Bible can be very inspiring and instructive, but it was written by imperfect humans.

It's difficult sometimes to know where to draw the line, or perhaps how to read between the lines. Apparently, as an example, the Apostle Paul was just as inclined to comment about hair styles back then as is David Pack, today.

BB

How do you know the "pagan gods" are nonexistent?O...

2007-12-22T17:42:00.000+13:00

How do you know the "pagan gods" are nonexistent?

On Thursday's WB Supernatural, the boys do find pagan gods who just want to be worshiped and give good weather if they have a blood sacrifice. Unfortunately, as pagan gods do, they want human sacrifice.

They had assimilated into the community and played pinochle with their elderly friends in the neighborhood.

They complained that they had a good thing going until Jesus showed up and ruined everything for them.

And, oh, by the way, one brother told the other that Jesus wasn't born in December -- he was born in the fall.

So there you have it: An absolute authority thoroughly researched and straight from the horse's mouth -- or some part of the horse's anatomy at least. Pagan gods exist and live among us... and if you want mild weather, they can accommodate you until the hunters show up and the brothers kill them as they do the other demons.

"If it's not a celebration of the Incarnation by w...

2007-12-22T16:32:00.000+13:00

"If it's not a celebration of the Incarnation by which God and Man are forever reconciled, why celebrate it at all? The pagan gods were long ago shown to be nonexistent, the religion of astrology has got nothing going for it. Christmas without Jesus is ultimately unsatisfying and empty."

How do you know the "pagan gods" are nonexistent?

Do you believe everything the good Christian church fathers tell you?

Most ancient cultures had major winter festivals. There were many other then Saturnalia; that was what was celebrated in the Roman world.

"A winter festival was traditionally the most popular festival of the year in many cultures... In Roman times, the best-known winter festival was Saturnalia, which was popular throughout Italy."

Common folk throughout the ancient world celebrated various winter festivals.

This year the Vatican is evidently running togethe...

2007-12-22T16:26:00.000+13:00

This year the Vatican is evidently running together the idea that the home mentioned in Matthew, must be the one they owned in Nazareth. Not so. The Bethlehem home is depicted as Mary and Joseph's home with no connection to Nazareth. When forced to flee in Matthew's account to Egypt, they try to return to the home in Bethlehem but are warned away so they can end up finally as Jesus of Nazareth.

"This year's Nativity scene will be unlike any other. Instead of the traditional depiction of a stable in Bethlehem, on-lookers might soon find the Baby Jesus born in Joseph's Nazareth workshop.

The State Department of the Vatican announced the transformation in setting and location, citing the need for "a change" and a desire to crack down on the various "fanciful Nativity scenes" as their reasoning, the London Daily Telegraph reported."

There is some wash of the hog in all this as well. All Nativity scenes are fanciful

The problem seems to be the conflict of the Matthe...

2007-12-22T15:31:00.000+13:00

The problem seems to be the conflict of the Matthew account of Joseph and Mary having a home in Bethlehem and Lukan construct of having to get the natives of Nazareth to Bethlehem for the Birth by way of the an imagined taxation. Both tales conflict with each other. The home spoken of in Matthew is in Bethlehem not Nazareth.

Had Luke known of this home in Bethlehem, he would not have had to do the "no room in the inn" story as it would not have been necessary and besides, Elizabeth(of Luke) lived in the environs of Jerusalem and they could have stayed with her. Why they didn't is unknown in Luke save for the Bethlehem "prophecy"

Matthew of course has the dramatic never before told idea that Herod was killing kids and Jesus fled immediately after birth to Egypt to fulfil Matthews imaginations while in Luke they simple did the purification after birth and wandered home to Nazareth again with no trip to Egypt. The family can't both flee in the dead of night to Egyptfor two years to fulfill Matthews non prophecy about "out of Egypt I will call my son" (a reference to the Exodus in reality,) and saunter harmlessly back to Nazareth after 40 days at the same time.

Both Birth narratives are later additions to the Gospels and the Gospels read nicely with them snipped out. Neither agree with each as Dr. Raymond Brown and MANY others so well point out.

Matthews account is made up Old Testament fulfilment sayings as whoever Matthew was, he had no real idea of Jesus birth circumstances to write a real account.

The Lukan accounts the Magnificant by Mary are taken from the story of Hannah and may have originally been meant to be spoken by Elizabeth whose birth circumstances (infertility) better matched Hannah's. Elizabeth praising God for noticing her low estate (barreness) fits the whole context of her baby (John) leaping for joy when Mary came in PG with Jesus. Of course, in later years, John the B seems never to have met his cousin Jesus or knew him before he showed up for baptism.

Knowledge of the contrivance of the Birth narratives in Matthew and Luke is more common now than ever. Raymond Brown did do a dance by his own admission to stay on the good side of the "magisterium" as he called them. You can see him pulling his punches in his works. But he is highly regarded none the less.

The bottom line is that those who need to believe the story as told will find those that support them and those that don't will find those that support them.

In the Bible holy men are born of barren women while gods are born of virgins, perpetual or otherwise. Even the Caesars, as godmen, were born of virgins. Of course, we should all realize where real babies come from. But sometimes we don't.

No one seems to wonder if God committed fornication by impregnating Mary without marrying her, or if doing so by means of the other person in the form of the Holy Spirit constitutes something weird. It's a mystery alright.

It's all a great wonderful story. It's just not the one most take time to think about or question.

Thanks, Jared. Merry Christmas!

2007-12-22T15:18:00.000+13:00

Thanks, Jared.

Merry Christmas!