Comments on Ambassador Watch: A Very Hard Question

Reading everybody's comments makes me feel there i...

2008-02-15T10:58:00.000+13:00

Reading everybody's comments makes me feel there is nothing to believe anymore. This seems to be the inevitable effect of all these "intelligent" posts.

Jared said :Then what does a Bible-believer do wit...

2008-02-13T14:52:00.000+13:00

Jared said :

Then what does a Bible-believer do with Rev. 20's "they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"?

Jared, the obvious answer is to put your Bible & your Linus blanket away and quit believing in fairy tales. Only then will you be able to un-cross your eyes when reading such fables.

they die - like A & S - and are burned up in Ge'He...

2008-02-12T14:12:00.000+13:00

they die - like A & S - and are burned up in Ge'Henna.\No 'everlasting torment'.

Then what does a Bible-believer do with Rev. 20's "they shall be tormented day and night forever and ever"? To avoid the obvious interpretation, I used to read that verse while crossing my eyes and doing contortions and headstands -- but eventually I decided it was a lot less exhausting to just give those words their natural and obvious meaning.

And what if my "spirit" and your (Holy) "Spirit" a...

2008-02-12T03:31:00.000+13:00

And what if my "spirit" and your (Holy) "Spirit" are really different concepts we each possess for the exact same thing?

' disagree. One can have "spirit" without having g...

2008-02-11T08:50:00.000+13:00

' disagree. One can have "spirit" without having god, a god, or multiple gods. The proof of the pudding is that we are having this discussion. The spark of human self-awareness can be rightly described as "spirit" in my experience.'

I said Spirit - not spirit. All of us have spirit. At the very 'end' the only survivors will be those indwelt by the holy Spirit.

What is so hard about answering that is some of us...

2008-02-10T08:36:00.000+13:00

What is so hard about answering that is some of us believe that man has created "the creator of the universe", not the other way around.

A personalized deity that works for one person, in their own person, on their own time, without actively harming others is acceptable.

Unfortunately, religious dogmatic systems do not take this wider view, and insist that it's their way or the highway (and we all know which one that is, and what it's paved with).

I think we all understand that God did indeed allo...

2008-02-10T05:09:00.000+13:00

I think we all understand that God did indeed allow his Son to be sacrificed. He died a tortured, excruciatingly slow death pouring out his blood. He experienced this process feeling the horrifying pain OR WORSE than those of our loved ones. Is God's plan to have Christ risen quickly (after three days) to be by his side forever to work with him forever for his purpose?

We are not in this part of his plan -to be sacrificed as Christ was. We, as humans are going to live and die the same as those down through the ages, to be resurrected at an appointed time.

Who are we to question the Creator of the universe and what is so hard about answering this??????

"They are 'rubbish' only in the sense that having ...

2008-02-09T09:21:00.000+13:00

"They are 'rubbish' only in the sense that having fully rejected God's mercy and His offer of salvation, they are without Spirit, they die"

I disagree. One can have "spirit" without having god, a god, or multiple gods. The proof of the pudding is that we are having this discussion. The spark of human self-awareness can be rightly described as "spirit" in my experience.

Back on-topic, vis-a-vis the internal inconsistencies within the mythologies of the christ figure I came across this quote here.

"A humanism which fails to acknowledge, or which actively denies, the richness and continuing instrumentality of myths generated by the religious imagination seems to me both an impoverished and an old-fashioned humanism, whether it calls itself secular in an atheist sense or religious in the pared-down sense of the 1933 [Religious Humanist] manifesto.
------------------------
Thus are banished the age-long accumulations of religious writing, music, art, dance, architecture: the infinitely complex system of imaginative symbols by which human communities explored their own humanity in a mysterious, awesome, wonderful world; the long search for values which transcend the needs and desires of our own egos; the myths and legends, fables and fantasies, stories, songs, proverbs and exhortations of the Hebrew Bible and the “New Testament”, the Mahabharata, Rumi and Hafiz, the “dream time”, John Donne, William Blake, Gerard Manley Hopkins, T S Eliot, R S Thomas, Bach’s passion music, Mozart’s masses, Mahler’s Resurrection symphony…

Anonymous said... 'No human being is rubbish, not ...

2008-02-09T09:12:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said...
'No human being is rubbish, not even the incorrigibly wicked.'

They are 'rubbish' only in the sense that having fully rejected God's mercy and His offer of salvation, they are without Spirit, they die - like A & S - and are burned up in Ge'Henna.\No 'everlasting torment'.

And that offer of "salvation" is . . . what, exactly? To believe in far out, idiotic nonsense?

And, how is that supposed to make a person "righteous", exactly?

'No human being is rubbish, not even the incorrigi...

2008-02-09T06:15:00.000+13:00

'No human being is rubbish, not even the incorrigibly wicked.'

They are 'rubbish' only in the sense that having fully rejected God's mercy and His offer of salvation, they are without Spirit, they die - like A & S - and are burned up in Ge'Henna.\No 'everlasting torment'.

With respect for Mr. Schroeder's opinion, and his ...

2008-02-08T12:22:00.000+13:00

With respect for Mr. Schroeder's opinion, and his very insightful words, I disagree, for much the same reason Byker Bob does; being born and raised in the church, I had no choice. I was thoroughly brought under the mind-control of cult, and truly did believe what was being offered to me was "the truth".

Even my decision to leave the church was made for me; if the changes had never happened, and Joe Tkach Sr. had never given the sermon from the mount, and status had remained quo---I never would have left the church.

I did not start making decisions on my own until much later in my life than I should have (and I learned the hard way the consequences of making such decisions in an uninformed manner). That is as a direct result of the church and its mind-control.

With respect, Mr. Schroeder's comments are correct. For those members who had the choice in the first place, our parents. We, unfortunately, were not quite so lucky in that regard.

Regarding "Hell", might I once again refer the interested reader to Pam Dewey's excellent and thorough biblical exegesis, What Do You Really Know About Hell? I found her insights to be quite correct.

As for the nature of the commenters here, I think it's interesting to watch as some commenters switch sides either at random, by choice, or through design (whether they take that design to be self-inflicted or supernatural), some vociferously deny everything but their own beliefs, some deny everything but their own unbeliefs, and others just deny there's a holy flamewar going on at all!

Smile, you're on Candid AW! :-D

Annon:And think just how even more relieved we'd b...

2008-02-08T11:16:00.000+13:00

Annon:

And think just how even more relieved we'd be to realize that the Annanais and Sapphira story is a spoof on Peter and an attack on his so called leadership in the church according to Paul and Luke.

Peter, who said one thing (he'd never leave jesus) and did another, (fled and denied him) is taking two Christians who said they'd do one thing (give all) and did another (held back)

It's NT politics, not member killing. :)

"No, He never denied that He was good. He merely a...

2008-02-08T11:10:00.000+13:00

"No, He never denied that He was good. He merely asked, 'Why do you call me good? There is none good but God.' That is as much as denial that He is good as it is a denial that He is God."

Well that certainly is a new spin to an old scripture.

No, actually it's a very old "spin. Actually, I believe, it's the earliest known "spin" on that scripture. I mean, really, do you think Christianity, which insists that Jesus is God and therefore sinless, would have accepted such a statement as divinely inspired if it really meant what you think it means? Christians see that text, not as a denial of His goodness, but as Jesus inviting his interlocutor to consider what it might mean if Jesus really is good as his interlocutor called him.

I assumed that almost everyone who contributes to this blog:

a) understand we do not have an immortal soul

b) that 'hell' destroys what is in it

c) that only those who choose the second death will be there

Well, that's what you get for assuming. Was there a good reason to believe that just Armstrongists or skeptics post comments here? But besides the Armstrongists and skeptics, apparently there are also, for example, orthodox Christians who comment here, and Christians generally believe that the soul is not annihilated at death.

d) my own view: the latter will die before being cast as rubbish into the fire. cf Ananias and Sophira (Ge'Henna - the Jerusalem rubbish dump)

No human being is rubbish, not even the incorrigibly wicked. We must be careful that the biblical imagery and metaphors for final damnation do not become an occasion for dehumanising anyone or looking upon them as though they were rubbish. Last century there was something called the Holocaust, in which millions of people were dehumanised so they could be killed and then cast as rubbish into the fire.

I assumed that almost everyone who contributes to ...

2008-02-08T04:35:00.000+13:00

I assumed that almost everyone who contributes to this blog:

a) understand we do not have an immortal soul

b)that 'hell' destroys what is in it

c) that only those who choose the second death will be there

d) my own view: the latter will die before being cast as rubbish into the fire. cf Ananias and Sophira (Ge'Henna - the Jerusalem rubbish dump)

I find it rather frightening to find there are peo...

2008-02-08T02:55:00.000+13:00

I find it rather frightening to find there are people who genuinely believe that their god is prepared to torture people for an eternity if they have not lived exactly the way this god wants them to for just a few short years in this life.

How comfortable would the few that were ‘saved’ feel, knowing most of their former loved ones were suffering agonies for an eternity, while they themselves rested in peace and tranquillity.

Fortunately that is not the way things really are. The real God says that He ‘has no pleasure in the death of the wicked’, and that ultimately He would have ‘all men to be saved’.

With free will, there will no doubt be a very few that will refuse God’s gift – but when a person genuinely understands the full impact of what is ‘on offer’, and there is no doubt in there minds, it’s going to be a rare individual that would turn it down.

Even 99% salvation may be failure.

Neotherm said :I do believe that few people will r...

2008-02-08T01:01:00.000+13:00

Neotherm said :

I do believe that few people will receive salvation. But it is not because God cannot communicate his message. It is because most people will not hear it. In the current Western world, the message is more accessible than anyone could have ever imagined back in the first century.

And what, in your opinion, is that message, Neo? I've read the Bible from cover to cover dozens of times. And the only real message in there that I see that is worth discussing is, "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you." Which I try to put into practice.

I do this, not because I am "religious" or think I am "saved." And I don't do this to please any Deity so that he won't cast me into some Hell. I do this because it's the best way to live. Call it karma. You go around pissing off people and bad things will come back on you.

And I suppose that the majority of people live this way, or try to. So I think you are way, way off base in your religious belief that only a tiny percentage of people will not end up in Hell -- if there even is such a place.

What surprises me more than anything is that nobody here even challenged you about this very depressing belief that you have. I mean, you've got most of us here in this Hell too! But you say you are among the saved? All I can say to that is, you've got one hell of a faith there! But it's very bad karma for you. Because it just may be that you will end up in this Hell and the rest of us will be watching you, on the outside looking in.

Dennis wrote:"Of course the crisis healed in a way...

2008-02-07T21:00:00.000+13:00

Dennis wrote:

"Of course the crisis healed in a way I had not anticipated at the time!"

Ha!
And about the getting off balance and falling down along one's way...
Reminds me of a quote which goes something like:
"It's not whether or not you will fall down, but rather, when you do fall, how gracefully you get back up again."

And Neotherm, thanks for taking issue with the idea that cult victims are totally responsible for their cult involvement.
There are psychological dynamics at work which tend to usurp a person's ability to exercise free will.
Steve Hassan, for instance, recognizes there is "choice" in such milieu; however, the choices are "bounded".

Armstrong wasn't about informed consent. He was a manipulative control freak.

I think JD made some good balancing comments. But...

2008-02-07T19:07:00.000+13:00

I think JD made some good balancing comments. But, I would like to point out that while parents most certainly made their own decisions regarding Armstrongism, many of their children were involuntarily dragged into the scam, and brainwashed at least for a while. These kids often had to endure the sadness of their immediate family turning their backs on beloved grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins, simply because these people were not part of the cult.

The children were also deprived of proper medical care, and their education was negatively impacted by parents being impoverished through false teaching regarding tithing, and the shunning of college or university educations other than Ambassador.

If you spent about ten years in the cult with your parents, it was very difficult to break away! I know of some who went hog wild as they abandoned an oppressive value system and searched for a more balanced one to replace it. Some didn't make it.

I also believe it's a bit disingenuous to blame the worst abuses and worst cultic behavior on the enthusiastic young ministers whom HWA had personally taught. When things go bad in war, the General is held accountable. If there are renegade soldiers or officers, it's the General's responsibility to take corrective action.

Having said all of that, I believe most of us who post here are the freedom choir! We did take personal responsibility for our actions, took steps to "unbrainwash" ourselves, and have largely straightened out our lives. Unfortunately, bad religion is like a bad drug, in that it leaves dead spots in the minds of those who survive. The whole concept of "family" can be one of those dead spots, particularly if loved ones are still infected by cultic thought processes.

BB

Jesus could have sinned? Whaaaat?Then Jesus wasn't...

2008-02-07T17:08:00.000+13:00

Jesus could have sinned? Whaaaat?

Then Jesus wasn't God, because God cannot sin.

I mean, this gets really mind-numbing, the things people will declare with such certainty.

It's like Dan saying earlier that God gave his son "knowing he could fail." (Oops, I forgot the ALL CAPS.) And following up with the notion that Satan knew it, too.

Well, not having been there at the time, I prefer not to boast of such knowledge, but the inherent contradiction of a God-being having the potential to sin is enough to hearken the Jack Daniels from its cupboard, no?

Come on, people, stop reciting -- think!

Forgive me if I repeat someone else's comments, I ...

2008-02-07T17:05:00.000+13:00

Forgive me if I repeat someone else's comments, I didn't go back and read 150 plus posts...

But Jesus did not come to die for peoples sins. He didn't even die on the cross, he survived the crucifixion.

God can forgive sin anytime he wants to. There is no sacrifice for sin nor is there a need for a sacrifice for sin. All of this "stuff" is Roman mystery religion theology. Much of it is Mithraism.

Jesus was real. He came to reform Judaism. He was the son of God but he was not God.

He came and taught things that no else taught. But you can't find what he taught in the Canonical gospels. They have been too heavily edited. Nor can you find what he taught in Paul's writings. Paul never existed.

Christianity as we know it, including the Christianity practice by the Churches of God is a massive fraud.

Jesus came to teach people what was genuine in Judaism and to how to enter the Kingdom NOW.

We all have eternal life abiding in us. We just need to let it grow, i.e. let the Kingdom grow within us.

There is no lake of fire. We we are not to live our lives in fear and dread. That too is mystery religion, specifically to allow priests to control people.

But there is punishment and separation from God for those who choose to live badly.

Oh yes, the OT also is a massive fraud. Sorry. It is worse the New Testament. Jesus knew that, and that was part of his message.

But again; Jesus is real and salvation is real. It is just somewhat different then most of us think.

Have I lost you? probably...

Mr. Diehl,I truly have a hard time grasping why yo...

2008-02-07T16:46:00.000+13:00

Mr. Diehl,

I truly have a hard time grasping why you find this such a difficult question. Jesus could have sinned, but didn't, but was tempted such, that He could have. Thankfully He didn't sin. IF HE HAD, GOD THE FATHER WOULD BE ALL ALONE.

The Father had to give Jesus to humanity with the understanding that He might lose His eternal companion.

None of have had to face, ahead of time, the possibility of losing an eternal companion who we are totally in agreement on all things.

Something helpful.My son sent me this today as a b...

2008-02-07T14:36:00.000+13:00

Something helpful.

My son sent me this today as a bit of encouragement to dad. Leave it to him to have saved a haunting quote from my past for such a time as this.

“No matter how extreme a situation is it will change. It cannot continue forever. Thus, a great forest fire is always destined to burn itself out; a turbulent sea will always calm itself. Natural events always balance themselves by seeking their opposites, and this process of balance is at the heart of all healing. This process takes time. If an event is not great, the balancing required is slight. If the event is momentous, it takes days, weeks, years, even lifetimes for things to return to normal. Actually, without these small imbalances, there could be no movement in life. It is being kept off balance that keeps life changing.”

“How do you walk from here to there, by being balanced? You can’t move when your balanced. Because what is walking? Walking ahead is a controlled crash! It’s a constant catching of one’s self until you end up where you wanted to go. If I say “I will be balanced in my walking, I can’t move!” You have to get off balance to start the trip.”

“Total centering, total balance would only be sameness. All of life is a continual process of destruction and re-healing. That is why in an extreme situation, the wise are patient, and the patient are wise. Whether the situation is illness or your own anger, you should know that healing always follows upheaval. So we’re in a time of healing, that always follows a crisis. The opportunity in every crisis is to heal.”

Dennis Diehl
Feast of Tabernacles 1995

Of course the crisis healed in a way I had not anticipated at the time!

Jordan said:No, He never denied that He was good. ...

2008-02-07T12:54:00.000+13:00

Jordan said:

No, He never denied that He was good. He merely asked, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God." That is as much as denial that He is good as it is a denial that He is God.

Well that certainly is a new spin to an old scripture.

"Why do you call me good? Well ok, you can but there is none good but God, and ummmm, me of course, but don't tell anyone."

Was Jesus good? He him self said he was not good. ...

2008-02-07T12:43:00.000+13:00

Was Jesus good? He him self said he was not good. Only God was good.

No, He never denied that He was good. He merely asked, "Why do you call me good? There is none good but God." That is as much as denial that He is good as it is a denial that He is God.

May God forever bless those with courage and initi...

2008-02-07T11:14:00.000+13:00

May God forever bless those with courage and initiative to form their own opinions and to live within them. Whom else dare He trust?