Comments on Ambassador Watch: From the original AW: "Hic"bert W Armstrong

'How did they "know better?" If the ...

2010-01-10T00:14:31.757+13:00

'How did they "know better?" If the Gentiles knew better (knew what exactly?) then why didn't the Israelites, having dwelt among the Gentiles in captivity, know better, too?'
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It's unlikely that our race 'evolved' from more than one couple (a miracle in itself - two sexually evolving suitably at the same time).

From a believer's point of view, however, God explained to them how their bodies 'worked' (commands, if you like. So all the 'races' received the same guidance - not just (later) Israel.

And as today, even when we know better we don't do the right thing. Nor did Adam, Abraham, David, Paul - all of us.

The 'principles of living' were passed down from mouth to mouth and so the Gentiles at one time knew them - but tossed them aside.

"Re Biblical health laws: 'States Dr. D. ...

2010-01-09T09:11:34.946+13:00

"Re Biblical health laws:
'States Dr. D. T. Atkinson,"

Why not provide biblical evidence instead of Dr. Atkinson's take on the subject?

So far the biblical "health laws" that have been posted on this thread are pretty pathetic, coming from the dude who created bacteria and viruses himself. The ones that are actually useful were used by Gentile cultures predating the Israelites. So much for that.

Tip: If someone in your home contract leprosy, you'd be better off going to a medical doctor for diagnosis and treatment than looking for "marks of mildew" on clothing and for skin lesions with white hairs poking out of them.

Oh, or you could ignore both and just pray. God has a wonderful track record for healings. Unless you lost a limb, that is. If you did, you'll have to wait till Jesus comes back because god doesn't do lost limbs.

The Apostate Paul

So eating unclean meat makes you un-holy and defil...

2010-01-09T09:05:49.727+13:00

So eating unclean meat makes you un-holy and defiles you? I didn't know that food could defile you. Of course, unless you mean this from a physical perspective, and then we are back to square one- where in the Bible did God command the Israelites not to eat unclean meat because it was unhealthy? Where does the Bible say that unclean meat is unhealthy to eat?

The Apostate Paul

"By the way, God had given up on the Gentiles...

2010-01-09T08:55:27.589+13:00

"By the way, God had given up on the Gentiles... Let the Gentiles eat whatever they want - they knew better."

How did they "know better?" If the Gentiles knew better (knew what exactly?) then why didn't the Israelites, having dwelt among the Gentiles in captivity, know better, too?

When exactly did the Gentiles receive this "know better" knowledge?

So are the food laws spiritual defilement, or is it a health issue?

The Apostate Paul

Re Biblical health laws: 'States Dr. D. T. Atk...

2010-01-09T08:42:45.222+13:00

Re Biblical health laws:
'States Dr. D. T. Atkinson, "In the Bible greater stress was placed upon prevention of disease than was given to the treatment of bodily ailments, and in this no race of people, before or since, has left us such a wealth of LAWS RELATIVE TO HYGIENE AND SANITATION as the Hebrews. These important laws, coming down through the ages, are still used to a marked degree in every country in the world sufficiently enlightened to observe them. One has but to read the book of Leviticus carefully and thoughtfully to conclude that the admonitions of Moses contained therein are, in fact, the groundwork of most of today's sanitary laws. As one closes the book, he must, regardless of his spiritual leanings, feel that the wisdom therein expressed regarding the rules to protect health are superior to any which then existed in the world and that to this day they have been little improved upon" (Magic, Myth and Medicine, Atkinson, p. 20).

'There are scripture(s), however, where the go...

2010-01-09T03:51:37.095+13:00

'There are scripture(s), however, where the god of the Bible clearly explains why he did not want the Israelites to eat, or touch, "unclean meat." '
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According to Scripture the 'converted' have dwelling in them the Spirit of God - in their body. For this reason they are to 'be holy'. That is they are to avoid all that could defile the body. I Corinthians 3:16-17).

This echoes the instruction given through Moses in Leviticus 11:41-47: don't 'make youselves abominable'. That's what Paul also says - 'be holy'.

By the way, God had given up on the Gentiles - their choice (Romans 1) - and was then dealing with Israel as a model nation. Let the Gentiles eat whatever they want - they knew better.

"There are scripture(s), however, where the g...

2010-01-08T15:59:46.257+13:00

"There are scripture(s), however, where the god of the Bible clearly explains why he did not want the Israelites to eat, or touch, "unclean meat." No- put down your hands, those who know the answer. Let the the Armstrongites find it for themselves. It's a good opportunity to get their rusty brain cogs moving a bit."

He did not want our forefathers to eat or touch unclean meat because they were His chosen people, sanctified before the Lord.

Just to save time for our kosher friends, there is...

2010-01-08T07:27:12.422+13:00

Just to save time for our kosher friends, there is not one single scripture in the entire Bible that even implies that "unclean meat" is unhealthy to eat. Reality doesn't bear this out, either (unless someone has scientific evidence).

There are scripture(s), however, where the god of the Bible clearly explains why he did not want the Israelites to eat, or touch, "unclean meat." No- put down your hands, those who know the answer. Let the the Armstrongites find it for themselves. It's a good opportunity to get their rusty brain cogs moving a bit.

The Apostate Paul

"You wanted scriptures I gave you scriptures....

2010-01-08T07:07:35.586+13:00

"You wanted scriptures I gave you scriptures."

I wanted scriptures that supported the assertion that the "unclean meat" laws were health laws. Not one of the scriptures you list addresses this. Try again, please.

The Apostate Paul

"Sanitation: Deuteronomy 23:12-13" Wow....

2010-01-08T06:59:26.437+13:00

"Sanitation: Deuteronomy 23:12-13"

Wow. Humans never would have figured that one out on their own...but they did. Ancient cultures predating the Israelites practiced human waste sanitation, no thanks to Jehovah.

"Infection control: Leviticus 13:47–58"

What is a mark of leprosy? Or is it mold? Either way, it seems that the god of the Bible didn't understand the germ theory of disease that he supposedly created, otherwise he wouldn't have had the people and the priest poking around with "contaminated" articles, washing them and inspecting them- they should have just burned them to get rid of the mold, er, um, leprosy. Why didn't god understand that even though the mark of mold, uh, leprosy, was gone, there were most likely spores, er, I mean, bacteria, still present. Or did the ancient Israelites have bleach? Healthy!

"Cross infection, wound care: Leviticus 15"

This is ridiculous. Let us, for a moment, ignore that all of this is clearly ceremonial in nature and pretend that there are health implications here. If you come in contact with a man's "discharge" (whatever that is) or his semen, or a woman's menstrual blood, you are to wash yourself and your clothing. Wow! We should rush this out ASAP! Now we know how to prevent Ebola contamination! Just wash with water! It's that easy! Healthy! But again, many culture predating the Israelites practiced washing with water, no thanks to Jehovah.

"Quarantine: Leviticus 13:1–14:57, Numbers 5:2–4"

What incredible diagnostic tools! Lesions turning white! Lesions with white hairs! Oh, wait, sorry, that's leprosy. Wrong translation. If you keep on reading it looks a bit contradictory. At the first, a white lesion is bad, but later, if the lesions, er, I mean leprosy, covers the entire body and has turned white, the man is clean! Yay! Healthy! Let's get this out to the medical profession. If they only knew how to diagnose and treat infectious skin diseases- the Godly Way!

"Face masks: Leviticus 13:45–46"

??? Could you help me out here?

"Mortuary hygiene: Numbers 19:11, 19, 22 and Leviticus 11:24–28, 40"

Don't touch dead bodies or you will be unclean for seven days? Why just seven days? What if you have become infected with something? Do diseases just clear up after seven days? Healthy!

And these "unclean" people that touch discharge, or mold, or dead carcasses, can they interact with other people while they are unclean??

Don't handle or eat dead animals? That would have some weight if god hadn't allowed Gentiles to eat dead animals, which he did. (Deut 14:21) If it is unhealthy to eat a dead animal, then why did he let the Gentiles do it? Did he hate Gentiles?

"Food hygiene: Leviticus 11:34ff"

If a lizard falls into your beer mug, it's unhealthy to drink now? What about a moth?

"Monogamous unions limit sexual diseases: Genesis 1:27, 2:23–25"

Didn't the patriarchs practice polygamy?

"Justice: Micah 4:2-3"

Can you point out how this pertains to health?

Pathetic. I would expect better health laws from the creator of the universe. It seems that his "health" laws were no better than what previous cultures had been practicing on their own.

The Apostate Paul

"I'll re-post the scripture I posted on a...

2010-01-08T03:07:31.142+13:00

"I'll re-post the scripture I posted on another thread: Go read Genesis 9:3"

Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. The scripture you cite took place before the Flood.

Anon, please tell me what magic took place. If Gen 9:3 was valid before the 'flood' it was obviously still valid after the 'flood' for hundreds and hundreds of years until one day magically, 'everything that moveth' was radically reduced and separated into clean and unclean.

Now, you won't get any argument out of me that some things are good to eat, others not, and some things are just plain disgusting...but that isn't the point. The point is that here the Bible contradicts itself in two ways:

1) The Mosaic laws of clean and unclean meats is in clear contradiction with Gen 9:3

2) The Bible also says the God 'Changeth not', when, if scripture is to be believed, he doth.

I do remember the past and I defintely do not intend to repeat it by becoming and armstrongite ever again. You bible thumpers are the ones that keep repeating your past mistakes, every year as you rehash old sermons and every so many years by moving out your timelines when world events fail to live up to your interpretation of them.

pathetic.

Herbie had good taste,at least in the matter of li...

2010-01-07T15:05:32.949+13:00

Herbie had good taste,at least in the matter of liquor.

The tipple Gavin depicts is a drink fit for a king. Wonderful stuff.I recommend it thoroughly.

Hic!!

Jorgheinz

"What evidence do you have to support your id...

2010-01-07T11:37:02.833+13:00

"What evidence do you have to support your idea that this is a health law? I'm not interested in your opinion, but biblical evidence, ie scripture."

Proof that WWCG was the true church:
Ezekiel 44:23

God's health laws are for our own good. In this life and in the Kingdom when all nations will obey:
1 Timothy 4:8

You think the Scriptures no longer applies because of Gen. 9:3? Think again:
Matthew 4:4;
Luke 4:4;
Deuteronomy 8:3

Why were unclean animals taken in two by two and not by sevens, as the clean animals were?
Genesis 6:19
Genesis 7:2

Who is the authority to trust on clean and unclean foods?
Isaiah 55:8-9
Jeremiah 10:23

We must obey the will of God in all things. Not some things. Not only on some days. In all things and all days until the end of this age:
John 17:2-3
Matthew 7:21
John 14:15
Revelation 14:12
1 John 5:1-3

I gave you the scriptures in Leviticus. Also mentioned in Revelations:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+18%3A2&version=NKJV&src=embed

We are told in the Bible this a lasting law unto succeeding generations.
Deut 14:1-21

Have you been called out of this world to holiness?
1 Peter 2:9
Romans 12:2
Luke 8:13

For those who say "the Old Covenant is done away with":
Matthew 5:17-19

There is only one covenant, between the Lord and His people.

You wanted scriptures I gave you scriptures.

"I'll re-post the scripture I posted on a...

2010-01-07T11:01:41.977+13:00

"I'll re-post the scripture I posted on another thread: Go read Genesis 9:3"

Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. The scripture you cite took place before the Flood.

Here are some examples of Bible principles: Sani...

2010-01-07T04:22:01.097+13:00

Here are some examples of Bible principles:

Sanitation: Deuteronomy 23:12-13
Infection control: Leviticus 13:47–58
Cross infection, wound care: Leviticus 15
Quarantine: Leviticus 13:1–14:57, Numbers 5:2–4
Face masks: Leviticus 13:45–46
Mortuary hygiene: Numbers 19:11, 19, 22 and Leviticus 11:24–28, 40
Food hygiene: Leviticus 11:34ff
Monogamous unions limit sexual diseases: Genesis 1:27, 2:23–25
Justice: Micah 4:2-3

"Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, sayin...

2010-01-06T17:47:20.353+13:00

"Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals ----which you may eat---- among all the animals that are on the earth:"

Great! We are making progress.

So, the children of Israel (not the surrounding Gentiles) were told not to eat certain animals. Does the Bible give us any indication as to why?

What evidence do you have to support your idea that this is a health law? I'm not interested in your opinion, but biblical evidence, ie scripture.

Thanks,
The Apostate Paul

Anon wrote: "Now the LORD spoke to Moses and ...

2010-01-06T15:22:12.171+13:00

Anon wrote: "Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals ----which you may eat---- among all the animals that are on the earth:"

I'll re-post the scripture I posted on another thread: Go read Genesis 9:3

How about that from a God who "Changes not"

"Why don't you quit being evasive and pro...

2010-01-06T10:35:17.376+13:00

"Why don't you quit being evasive and provide us with some specific scriptures."

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+11+&version=NKJV&src=embed

Now the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying to them, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, saying, ‘These are the animals ----which you may eat---- among all the animals that are on the earth:

"Start at the beginning of Leviticus." ...

2010-01-06T09:55:26.178+13:00

"Start at the beginning of Leviticus."

Leviticus is one big health law? Why don't you quit being evasive and provide us with some specific scriptures.

The Apostate Paul

Alcohol, unlike psychedelics, seriously inhibits o...

2010-01-06T08:42:33.323+13:00

Alcohol, unlike psychedelics, seriously inhibits one's consciousness to the point that they become unable to have the proper self-awareness necessary to manifest any productive or complex thought-forms. It is quite apparent, when one looks at the beliefs of the WCG cult and it's splinters, that they reflect this lower level of consciousness.

"What health laws? Scripture, please." ...

2010-01-05T23:17:50.217+13:00

"What health laws? Scripture, please."

You should know Scripture better than I you quote it all the time.

Start at the beginning of Leviticus.

Anon: Glad to see AA worked for you and that Metr...

2010-01-05T19:21:53.133+13:00

Anon:

Glad to see AA worked for you and that Metropolitan Community Church works too! I have friends that were part of it's ministry for many years.

"If God's health laws were law of the lan...

2010-01-05T18:01:21.870+13:00

"If God's health laws were law of the land as well we would not be so persecuted as true Christians either."

What health laws? Scripture, please.

The Apostate Paul

I was a "flaming" alcoholic in WCG, but ...

2010-01-05T15:30:23.210+13:00

I was a "flaming" alcoholic in WCG, but hid the fact as it was considered a "sin" and weakness(1968)..Always looked forward to the Feast as there was tons of alcohol around..In fact Harvey's Bristol creame was my favorite....As time went on, finally was found out when local minister paid a visit and I was "smashed"(1978)Went to Big Sandy feast site in 1984, and there were members (Houston) who had discovered A.A.(some ministers saw sending an alcoholic to A.A.was more successful than just putting one out of the church)...Long story short, I was 3years sober, but needed outside help to truly live life without alcohol..One man had said, "If you don't get help, you will drink again"...I came home and started going to meetings...Still do with 28 years sobriety...A.A.saved my life, and my relationship with my children(grown now)Also my relationships with fellow human beings,get over the self-righteous,judgmental attitude I had; that was the real sickness..I quit going to WCG in 1995, and am a member of Metrpolitan Community Church(B.R.)I view church in a different way today...Do not let it take over my life....I am not surprised about HWA or GTA or other ministers getting drunk....A wonderful example for me to remember is David John Hill who died awhile back...I believe on AW was an article or link about how David Hill sobered up(A.A.)Gave up everything at WCG...He and wife were successful in helping other alcoholics, addicts,etc.to change their lives....He died with not much material possessions, but he was rich in how to really live life and help others....David Hill and his wife touched peoples lives positively,had a personal relationship with God(of his understanding)that HWA or GTA probably never had or felt....Very sad indeed....At that time the WCG was very wrong about getting help for depression or addictions or anything else, for that matter....I am so grateful my eyes were opened(mind and heart also) to see what needed to be changed...and to leave the cult after about 30 years(counting the time before baptism)....

When asked what he thought of the alcohol in the c...

2010-01-05T15:24:51.575+13:00

When asked what he thought of the alcohol in the church, he replied: "I think I shall have another!"