Comments on Ambassador Watch: What can you say?

Dennis: Lest you think we are piling on you indisc...

2008-04-28T06:40:00.000+12:00

Dennis:

Lest you think we are piling on you indiscriminately, please know that my skepticism and criticism is aimed squarely at keeping you from the wolves, not throwing you to them.

A lot of what you have said, on AW and Shadows and PT and here, resonates with me. There may be places where we diverge but hey, that's what the spark of individuality is all about right?

All I can do is echo what many have said in the past and what I am certain many will say in future:

I wish MY pastors had been more like you and less like---themselves.

Pass the Snickers and licorice!

:-D

Oops forgot to leave a link to part two of nutball...

2008-04-26T06:20:00.000+12:00

Oops forgot to leave a link to part two of nutball Byron's YouTube video.

Here is a YouTube link to Byron Katie being the to...

2008-04-26T06:07:00.000+12:00

Here is a YouTube link to Byron Katie being the total asshole that she is.

Try running a search from the link I gave you (the...

2008-04-25T23:51:00.000+12:00

Try running a search from the link I gave you (the button is in the upper right hand corner). There are lots and lots and lots of threads on Tolle and such over at rickross.com.

Tolle apparently is from the same school of thought as "Papaji" or "Poonjapi" the same "Indian" guru that spawned Andrew Cohen, a "guru" who makes the experience of being born and raised in Worldwide look like it was made of flowers and goodness and light. (Here's a highlight: You displease the guru, the guru has his more "respectful" disciples throw blood on you in a concentration-camp-like compound in the basement of the colony.)

Katie Byron and Eckhart Tolle and Andrew Cohen are apparently, to put it in terms we can understand, splinters from the same cult that this "Poonpapi" or whatever he goes by, started up.

Dennis, you can read the books all you like, and if you find something in it that's for you, more power to you. Just don't join up with any group claiming to share its principles. They are bad bad bad bad news, in my opinion.

I watched one of the Oprah segments on "A New Earth". The part that made me shudder was when Miss O said (and these are her exact words):

"Some people are not ready for the truth in The Book, and they just will not understand it until their minds are opened."

(Tolle isn't Bible-based the way our cult was, so she left off the obligatory "by the holy spirit" that we are so familiar with.)

Sound familiar? Trust me Dennis. This good old boy rings ALL the wrong bells.

WW,I did just have a peek at that thread you linke...

2008-04-25T17:59:00.000+12:00

WW,
I did just have a peek at that thread you linked to, and it's about Byron Katie, too.
I'm not sure I'll make it past the first page, where I saw both Landmark Education Corporation and Byron Katie intelligently well trounced.

Here's a couple of excerpts:

"In this one, Katie is dealing with an Israeli woman essentially suffering from PTSD, who needs some basic therapy and human support and understanding. She's afraid of war. Of course she's afraid of war. This is perfectly normal and sane, given where she lives. In fact, it's healthy and important. Her fears of war could lead her to take every kind of appropriate action.

"But according to the New Age Self-Help snake-oil soul "savers," no one need or should ever be afraid, ever be upset, ever be angry or feel guilt or shame or anything "negative." By promoting this patently ridiculous concept, they create the illusion that people actually could walk around in a state of bliss all the time -- and this they call a state of "grace" -- by simply disconnecting from their egos, their rational selves, and their critical minds.
...She actually tells this poor woman that she shouldn't worry about war, because the FLOWERS ON THE TABLE are not worrying about war.
That's right. The flowers. They're not worried. They have no brain. Be like the flowers."

and

"If they just did back-room lobotomies it would be so much easier -- but they'd sell less books.
Landmark and other LGATs of course trade in this counterfeit psycho-babble, at the expense of people's lost minds and souls, but Byron Katie seems to take it to a new level perhaps because she was, for many years, actually barking mad.
Katie's reasoning is more deranged than anything put forth by Landmark Education, though there are basic parallels. She incorporates Landmark's extreme (to the point of completely irrationality) existential you-create-everything and blame-the-victim philosophy, but then she essentially attempts to turn reality completely on its head with her reversal questions. For example, "My father abused me" becomes "I abused my father." This doesn't even begin to make rational sense, it's like insisting you can wear your hat on your feet and walk just as easily, if not better.
So we have a barking mad woman now telling people to just "reverse" their thinking until they can convince themselves maybe nothing is what they believed, maybe everything is ass-backward, maybe everything is just FINE if they only stop thinking rationally . . . and people are calling her a guru and "the real deal."

(End of excerpts)

I'll take the reality of sometimes gettin' pissed, sometimes being happy, sometimes being depressed, etc, over the fake bullshit of her money-making new age garbage, any day.

And I'm sure scientology/landmark automatons will tell you it doesn't get any more real than what they experience.
Yeah, right. Ha!

~Mel

Dennis,I'll pass on reading it, but if you know of...

2008-04-25T15:52:00.000+12:00

Dennis,
I'll pass on reading it, but if you know of some CliffsNotes type thing on it, or a good overview of the ideas I'd be interested in reading more of what his theories are.
I did read that he was heavily influenced by Krishnamurti. Years ago, reading that fellow's books made my head spin.
I haven't read anything on Rick Ross's site about Tolle. Iirc, I did read some conversations between Monica Pignotti and others about Tolle. I understand that those offering criticism of Tolle on Oprah's board got shouted up.

Not looking to make a big thing about it here, just thought you could offer a bit on what he teaches about ego.
I see it as a good thing to have a strong sense of self that is healthy and even reactive.(I'd make a bad scientologist!)

As you may have surmised, I cringe at some of the "over-absoluteness" and great claims of super-duper knowledge in the teachings of many new-age gurus that can be downright mentally abusive.

I like what Eckhart Tolle has to say in both The P...

2008-04-25T11:49:00.000+12:00

I like what Eckhart Tolle has to say in both The Power of Now and The New Earth. I'd give "The Power of Now" a try and see what one thinks is so wrong with that way of being and understanding the minds way of being ever stuck in the past where resides anger and depression and the future where lives anxiety and fear. Neither being real anymore or yet.

Rick Ross obviously has never read Tolle if I go by what he says the man teaches and believes. Ross explains Tolle much like fundamentalists explain eveyone elses religion.

I find a lot of comfort in Ekchart's perspectives which to me are't just his, but how the mind actually works.

By the way, Gavin, I snagged this picture, with fu...

2008-04-25T11:17:00.000+12:00

By the way, Gavin, I snagged this picture, with full credit to both Bill F. and yourself, for the Ronald Weinland Drinking Game.

If anyone should decide to visit, be sure and listen to the musical accompaniment while you are there!

I would be leery of anything Tolle-related, Dennis...

2008-04-25T08:47:00.000+12:00

I would be leery of anything Tolle-related, Dennis: He already has at least one thread on the Rick Ross Institute's web forum.

Ron Reedy was one sick dude! People in Pasadena c...

2008-04-25T07:32:00.000+12:00

Ron Reedy was one sick dude! People in Pasadena could not stand they self righteous nazi. Whenever Germany invades this country during the tribulation, Reedy will gladly jump ship so he can torture and abuse people. He already has the background!

Hi Dennis,Are you saying the ego is a bad thing? P...

2008-04-25T03:52:00.000+12:00

Hi Dennis,
Are you saying the ego is a bad thing? Please clarify or elaborate if you can.
Maybe I am misreading what you are saying, and I'm not too up on what Tolle's theories are.
When I hear something that sounds like "bad bad ego", a red flag raises in my mind.
In years after I left the wcg, I got into various "out-there" new agey stuff(from reiki to alien things). It kind of came to a head when a friend and loved one got immersed in the Landmark Education Corporation(formerly EST), and I then did some searching and found out about methods of brainwashing, including the use of psychobabble and pseudoscience which are heavily used by so many new-agey gurus. And the "ego is bad" thing is often a part of the package they sell.
That searching, and the knowledge gained, caused me to snap and get away from that stuff.
Hence, my "wait a minute..." reaction when I hear praises of a new age guru's theories, or the (perhaps only perceived in this case) idea that ego is bad.

I should mention that I believe not everything new age gurus teach is total bunk. But I do believe that much of it needs to be taken with large grains of salt, and is often in essence just common sense notions wrapped in esoteric packaging, and that common themes such as "ego is bad" and disagreement being seen as negativity are largely used as tools of manipulation.

~Mel

must be difficult going to Jerusalem to launch Ame...

2008-04-25T02:28:00.000+12:00

must be difficult going to Jerusalem to launch American Two Witnesses and then have to come home after the judges voted you off the show!

M. T. Hall

People should be treated as the treaters would wis...

2008-04-24T23:07:00.000+12:00

People should be treated as the treaters would wish to be treated. That's a life thing,not a church thing. Everyone is a small part of the same one grand thing.

To me, Eckhart Tolle hits our human ego needs, and the false, needy,controling self, right on the head in his newest book, The New Earth.

It's funny to me. Ron Weinland huffs and puffs death and selfcentered God connections above and beyond all others while little , rather geeky Eckhart, "the Yoda" Tolle, quietly helps people see that it's ego that creates behaviors and fantasy like RW's.

Which one is a better witness to truth?

I've prolly said this along the way, but going to see my handicapped brother every week in a state hospital from age 5 until college overworked my fairness and compassion modules and fried them as a kid. So they are locked open..ha. I have no illusions where I got the idea I wanted to be part of "the deaf shall hear, the blind shall see, and the lame shall leap as a hart..." Sounded good to me.

PS, I've screwed up plenty of times, just for the record :)

Dennis said,"Oh Great, NOW you tell me! The Bible ...

2008-04-24T22:03:00.000+12:00

Dennis said,"Oh Great, NOW you tell me! The Bible says, if you do this...then I'll that...alas...."

MY COMMENT - Dennis, I can tell from your writings that you have a tremendous sense of integrity, and knowing right from wrong. Its the hardest thing to see your ideas ignored just because you were not part of the "IN crowd".

You tell it like it is. The idiots you mention don't have anything over you. You were just ahead of your time in the WCG.

Richard

MY COMMENT - Dennis, I hate to be the one to tell ...

2008-04-24T13:50:00.000+12:00

MY COMMENT - Dennis, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but life isn't fair!

Richard

Oh Great, NOW you tell me! The Bible says, if you do this...then I'll that...alas....

Dennis said, "Next thing I see, Mike Morrison is w...

2008-04-24T13:36:00.000+12:00

Dennis said, "Next thing I see, Mike Morrison is writing about Midrash and the Gospels and it's all ok for him."

MY COMMENT - Dennis, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but life isn't fair!

Richard

I do understand where you're coming from and those...

2008-04-24T12:09:00.000+12:00

I do understand where you're coming from and those experiences with ministers and such. I honestly feel I do and I would not mean to diminish those observations in any way.

In hindsite, I was somewhat of a fish out of water with WCG. No one bothered me or got on me when I never gave BI sermons which to me would be a topic that never mattered in the NT. No one turned me in for telling people to both go see a doc and give me a call for anointing in any order. I hated "head tables" and undid any "ministerial priviledge" within my power that was embarassing or stupid.

Weinland replaced me in Ohio and I heard a lot of "please help us' stories and "well he ain't like you Dennis." I got the same stuff when I was just south of Lexington , Ky and Ron Reedy was to my north and in Binghamton when Dave Pack was to my West.

The main criticims I had to put up with were from zealous members , just a few and any number of zealous elders and deacons who wanted me to put them on the inside with me, whatever that meant to them, and I didn't. Or I changed the elder's plan that everyone MUST sell 25 cases of oranges to everyone can decide what they can do and only do what they can. While patting me on the back when there, this one elder then told everyone after I left, I was the worst thing that ever hit Binghamton,NY. This was because I was not pushy with people and make them do things for "their character." This man is a UCG elder of note and I hope he has mellowed.

Shoot, I wrote articles about the Birth Narratives of Jesus for WCG "homework" for ministerial updating that curled their toes and got me labeled by the administration for that one. Next thing I see, Mike Morrison is writing about Midrash and the Gospels and it's all ok for him.

We all know what happen to those ahead of their time. Is that burning flesh I smell..ha ha.

I blather....

"The apocalyptic believer postpones living now, an...

2008-04-24T06:02:00.000+12:00

"The apocalyptic believer postpones living now, and never prepares for posterity."

Well-said, Bill F., very well-said. All of us are living proof of that mentality (and growing up under it), and hopefully that, combined with all the rest of it, is what will finally make Weinland's followers realize what they have gotten themselves into.

"...but I simply did not see much compassion among...

2008-04-24T02:02:00.000+12:00

"...but I simply did not see much compassion among Armstrongists. They were pre-occupied with legalism and judgementalism..."

I agree. What "love" they had, they reserved for friends and family (though a condescending love, if the person was "un-converted"); they had no compassion for the rest of humanity. This is a direct result of Armstrong legalism. They were taught that "love" was not feelings and acts of compassion toward others, but was "keeping the commmandments." This was "true love."

The Apostate Paul

Neo said, "When he walked into a congregation on t...

2008-04-23T21:05:00.000+12:00

Neo said, "When he walked into a congregation on the Sabbath, the typical Armstrongist minister was at his egotistical pinnacle. He was the most important person in the world. He had life and death control over the great unwashed that comprised the audience. He had been trained to believe that he was vastly superior to the dumb sheep that he led and he, amazingly, believed this. This is not a model conducive to compassion".

MY COMMENT - It was my WCG experience that Neo's comments were generally true and representated the ministry in general. He described a young Ken Westby to a tee.

I think I mentioned before on AW that the age of the ministers also played in. I believe I posted an apology I received a couple years ago from current UCG minister F.K. for a sermon he gave in Washington, D.C. in 1969. Minister F.K. said in his apology e-mail that in 1969 he was too young to be a Pastor.

The fresh out of Ambassador College "green around the ears" with NO real life experience ministers were the ones that are described best by Neo's post.

Again, no offense to you Dennis. I didn't know you or your family in the 1960s WCG. By the way, one exception to my observation was Chuck Dickerson, who I read in the Journal recently passed away.

Richard

I generally don't ridicule the average Joe who fin...

2008-04-23T18:45:00.000+12:00

I generally don't ridicule the average Joe who finds some value in Armstrongism. God guides all paths and for the grace of God I'd still be in that mess. Its my personal belief God works with all, even in their error.

But Ronald Weinland's pre-emptive curse of cancer on those who would mock him....well, it just begged a good mocking! Such self promoting nutcases need mocking - not superstitious silence. Every true nutcase always tells his audience, "Those that didn't believe me died!"

The sad part of the apocalyptic meme (rightly called a mind virus) is that those who hold to it, think they are saving their skins. Jesus said those that seek to save their lives will lose it.

The truth is, none of us get out of this life alive, nutty preacher mind-ray induced cancer or not.

What matters is how well we LIVE NOW. The apocalyptic believer postpones living now, and never prepares for posterity. Why do that when the end is near? Life can end in a cut on the finger with a flesh eating staph organism. None of us have any guarantee of long life on earth.

The truth of the Apocalyptic mindset is that is a death cult, people caught in it do not really live life, they only bide their time until the return of Jesus. Apocalyptic followers have their spiritual engines in neutral gear, and they rev the engine each time some tidbit of news seems to support their interpretation of a very strange book that barely made it in the canon presided over by a Sun worshiping emperor. But they never leave the spiritual garage.

Its perhaps not as overtly destructive as fringe middle eastern Islamic sects and their suicide bombers or Nazi occultism (its no accident those two are linked in history). They represent not a celebration of life and God, but rather the destruction of life in the name of God or genetics.

I never heard of Ron until last year, but from his statements, Ron Weinland wouldn't know yarmulke from a propeller beanie. It just seemed to fit the man.

I've never viewed Hoeh as harmless but as a danger...

2008-04-23T17:25:00.000+12:00

I've never viewed Hoeh as harmless but as a dangerous architect of Armstrongism. Kind of analogous to the role of Dick Cheney

You really have to wonder how or why Weinland star...

2008-04-23T16:59:00.000+12:00

You really have to wonder how or why Weinland started this whole thing in the first place. Take it apart. Play the tape slowly backwards and forwards.

This thing about the pope reminds me of David somebody (forgot his name), who writes about interviewing or watching some of our politicians, and suddenly seeing them morph from human to lizards or reptiles, and back to humans again. He believes this indicates that they are part of an alien conspiracy. I was on one forum, and one of the regulars privately emailed me a link to this David's website, apparently having bought into the whole lizard thing and expecting that I would grasp the significance, too.

BB

I entirely agree. And it looks like the three stoo...

2008-04-23T15:47:00.000+12:00

I entirely agree. And it looks like the three stooges currently serving as the witness's "evangelists" are behaving in a manner well-befitting Armstrongist 2ICs: They may very well be planning a coup.

Dennis: Of course we speak in generalizations. You...

2008-04-23T15:25:00.000+12:00

Dennis: Of course we speak in generalizations. You do it all he time. We are all capable of making the necessary adjustments to these statements.

You may have attended a much different church than I did, but I simply did not see much compassion among Armstrongists. They were pre-occupied with legalism and judgementalism. They did demonstrate sometimes concern for others but even that was a little warped -- they were competing for a higher position within the Armstrongist hierarchy and a better position in the future Kingdom of God.

If a church is steeped in these ideas, it does impact thinking and behavior. There may have been a few shining lights of compassion around, at least ostensibly, but you kind of wonder why, if they were true in this spirit, they would be at home in an Armstrongist congregation.

Another generalization for you: Ministers were the least likely people to demonstrate compassion to anyone else. Rare acts of charity were typically delegated to deacons. When he walked into a congregation on the Sabbath, the typical Armstrongist minister was at his egotistical pinnacle. He was the most important person in the world. He had life and death control over the great unwashed that comprised the audience. He had been trained to believe that he was vastly superior to the dumb sheep that he led and he, amazingly, believed this. This is not a model conducive to compassion.

Again, Weinland is not exceptional but is, rather, typical of the Armstrongist ministry.

-- Neo