Comments on Ambassador Watch: Angry Beavers

Angry Beavers was a great show. SPOOT!

2008-11-22T15:17:00.000+13:00

Angry Beavers was a great show. SPOOT!

AC Grads in Suits, Charlie's right. That's a 100% ...

2008-11-22T12:00:00.000+13:00

AC Grads in Suits, Charlie's right. That's a 100% spot on the money assessment. And why I stand by the assertion that we were never Christians, and why I always felt uncomfortable if someone identified me as same, or asked me if I was one. Christians were "the harlot daughters of the Great Whore of Babylon" after all.

We were never Christians.

2008-11-22T11:57:00.000+13:00

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Hi Gavin,Just a note to say thanks for putting AW ...

2008-11-22T06:26:00.000+13:00

Hi Gavin,

Just a note to say thanks for putting AW up, in whatever form. Since the days of the old website, your service has been one of the best sources of COG-related news and information available.

We certainly don't mind you taking the occasional vacation as you did recently -- you definitely deserve a break from time to time! But please don't make the vacation permanent anytime soon. I'm sure sometimes it doesn't seem worth the hours you put into it, but you benefit more people than you know.

Libro

(I second Paul's motion -- Viva el Byker Bob!)

AC grads in suits:That is the best explanation I h...

2008-11-22T02:42:00.000+13:00

AC grads in suits:

That is the best explanation I have heard of that to date.

Ex WCG make good atheists because we started with ...

2008-11-21T21:05:00.000+13:00

Ex WCG make good atheists because we started with a belief system that deconstructed christianity and reconstructed it into an alternative fundamentalist approach (like the Mormons). When this belief system collapsed there was nothing left. So those good looking AC grads/WCG field reps in nice suits (like those fresh faced Mormon reps) didn't have all the answers after all.

Paul Ray,Gotta pass on the J-bird these days, but ...

2008-11-21T11:27:00.000+13:00

Paul Ray,

Gotta pass on the J-bird these days, but I agree with you about the blog wars. They make for excitement, I mean, I'm sure everyone's been glued to the blogs over the past week or so, but they can result in severely hurt feelings if one party or another doesn't have the common sense to back off at just the right juncture. Believe I'll take the high road here (no pun intended!)

The funny thing is, I don't believe a lot of the rhetoric is personal. I mean certain people have at least three of my email addresses if they really wanted to have personal discussion regarding any of these matters. That it all plays out instead on the forums and blogs shows me that some are indulging in a bit of posturing for the onlookers.

I've said all along, I believe salvation is going to be universal. We'll have to party and have a good chuckle about all of this when we get there. I've heard that my Skybuddy makes some darned good wine!

BB

PS: Dev isn't me, so have everybody be good to him or her.

Anonymous, Sorry, Herbert W. Armstrong didn't cr...

2008-11-21T11:26:00.000+13:00

Anonymous,
Sorry, Herbert W. Armstrong didn't create any ratcages.

I think all these little BlogWars are very silly. ...

2008-11-21T05:41:00.000+13:00

I think all these little BlogWars are very silly. The respective owners need to smoke a joint or at least have a pint.

Byker Bob Lives!

Paul Ray

This is somewhat of an interesting phenomenon. Us...

2008-11-21T04:47:00.000+13:00

This is somewhat of an interesting phenomenon. Usually, when one considers the atheist, one envisions a toughened individual, perhaps somewhat independent, one who goes through life rarely considering things spiritual.

If you ask a typical atheist whether he or she feels persecuted or embattled, they would probably answer in the negative, with the possible exception of certain times of the year, such as Christmas, Easter, and Thanksgiving. Those are the times of the year during which the last visible vestiges of Christianity are permitted to manifest themselves during this, the post-Christian era.

The WCG atheist differs from this mode, at least the visible ones on the forums who are daily confronting past issues from Armstrongism, as well as the religious alternatives that former brethren have often employed as their own solution to the Armstrong problem.

Also, the WCG atheist often has close relatives, who could only be described as being the religiously rabid, e.g. continuing members of WCG or perhaps one of the splinter groups. These relatives may occasionally be confrontational, based on concerns or other emotions.

The WCG atheist has undoubtedly had experience with an extreme religion, one of the worst examples of the breed. This leads to greater passion, a passion which is often seen by believers as nearly a religion unto itself.

Usually, when one thinks of persecution, one thinks of the followers of Jesus Christ. But, one can honestly understand how a WCG atheist could see himself as being persecuted, due to the unique circumstances and pressures which have led each to their non-belief.

It is how each chooses to deal with such circumstances that provides or denies healing. Those of us with WCG backgrounds often find ourselves in the same ratcage, a ratcage that was created by a man, Herbert W. Armstrong. It's tempting for the rats to forget this, and to direct animosity towards one another, whether or not this is actually and logically justifiable. One can see why either atheists or Christians would feel persecuted or embattled under such circumstances.

Just a thought:On personal growth through the vari...

2008-11-21T03:09:00.000+13:00

Just a thought:

On personal growth through the various experiences of the WCG experience, as perceived by each individual.

"We can't wait until we know for certain God exists or that Jesus lived, or that this or that religion is true, before we embark on a journey of self discovery. Such procrastination, said the Buddha, resembles the behavior of a man who has been wounded by a poisoned arrow, but who resists the attempts of his companions to pull the arrow out until he has found out the name, the home town, the stature, the colour and the caste of the man who fired it."

The Gospel Zodiac/Darlison, pg 59

One can spin their story of how the arrow hit them, the time of day, what direction it came from and who did it until ones brains fall out. But a useful blog on such matters needs to be one that helps pull the arrow out and begin both treatment and healing.

Just yelling "I'm hit, I'm hit...%&&$%&%*^^$#* I'm hit," may get someone's attention, but it doesn't get the arrow out. Demanding the arrow stay in a bit longer until it really hurts, isn't ultimately helpful either. But hey, yelling is a part of getting some help with the hit. I just imagine if one is still yelling for help, when help is available, there is a certain detachement taking place.

However, we all perceive our wounds differently and when we tire of the pain, out it comes.

AW, to me, serves as a good arrow puller though we all perceive our wounds differently and our arrows stuck in different places in our bodies. It does make a difference where it hit you, however, when poisoned, not so much.

IMO

I was an admin on the shadows forum. I had to lea...

2008-11-20T19:26:00.000+13:00

I was an admin on the shadows forum. I had to leave when I tried to run things fairly and got pissed on by "J" (hey, that word's in the bible) and I decided it wasn't worth sticking around anymore.

In retrospect I should have stood up a little more. After all, I owned the server, I could have at least insisted that he follow the rules that he created.

Oh well. What's done is done.

"I might remind the Purple one that at Shadows For...

2008-11-20T17:09:00.000+13:00

"I might remind the Purple one that at Shadows Forum there were a number of very kind and very concerned ones that just couldn't accept 'let the dead bury the dead'."

That's right, they viewed us as spiritually "dead" because we never converted, under the onslaught of their omnipresent altar calls.

And don't even get me started on the preferential treatment Christians got away with, from the Christian admins; whereas, the atheists (myself included) got our wrists slapped on a daily basis, for daring to ask questions or raise topics that might "shake the faith". (When it was supposed be 100% equal for everyone.)

Don't even get me started on the number of times threads were hijacked and detoured into harping altar calls, if they threatened to veer into non-believer territory. The way they would work it is, one of us would start a thread in the Atheist Discussion section, one of the Christians would be assigned (or took it upon themselves) to post an altar call, thus "allowing" (yeah right) the Christian admins to move the thread to the "safe" Christian Discussion area, and everyone got to pat themselves and each other on the back about how much they loved Jebus. Sorry, I mean Horus. Leaving the original discussion completely and effectively shut down. (Yeah, that's really "respecting all paths" right there, isn't it?)

Nothing wrong with that, no, nope, nothing at all. "Kind" and "concerned" and "caring" ohhhhhhhh suuuuuuuuuuuuuuure.

And I've a lovely bridge to sell you.

Another example, someone posted an atheist quotations thread (in the appropriate Atheist Discussion section of the forum), titled "Atheist Favourite Sayings", which was immediately hijacked by insulting comments and bitter sarcasm from a Christian believer. Do you know what the Christian admins did about this?

Not a bloody goddamned thing, until it was explicitly pointed out to them that, hey, this might be out of line here you know?? Yet, if one were to even hint at something that didn't 100% agree with the Christian worldview, it was an admin warning for you!

Don't get me started on Shadows. It was a shell game from the start, and I'm only sorry I stuck with it for as long as I did. I might not have some of the "baggage" I am currently dealing with, vis a vis fundamentalist Christianity, if I hadn't.

Oh, and the evidence of my recollections above? Has been toasted. "J" decided to delete all the incriminating material when he "revamped" the forum.

(And look how successful that one was. Not.)

Don't speak to me about how kind and caring and concerned the Christians on Shadows were, anon. They were cold-hearted and self-centred and self-deluded. The way Christians are.

JDS,You mentioned the places where you can usually...

2008-11-20T10:13:00.000+13:00

JDS,

You mentioned the places where you can usually see God working most dramatically, the places where you would normally expect people to be hopeless. Those folks have had everything stripped away from them, and are more open to a genuine spiritual experience. Anyone who has been close to anyone in such circumstances knows this. The problem is that such people, by their very nature and appearance, tend to repel about 99%of the general public, so very few get the opportunity of learning what they could teach us. They know all too well what Jesus meant when he said to pray: "Give us this day our daily bread".

I might remind the Purple one that at Shadows Foru...

2008-11-20T07:40:00.000+13:00

I might remind the Purple one that at Shadows Forum there were a number of very kind and very concerned ones that just couldn't accept 'let the dead bury the dead'. That's more than you can say for the elitist Armstrongists, who would never come back to pick up and help someone. There's lots of lessons to be learned from Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Not too many people are willing to dive into the bowels of hell to help a brother or sister.

A most excellent post Gavin. I found the predeces...

2008-11-20T07:03:00.000+13:00

A most excellent post Gavin.

I found the predecessor to this website back in 2003. I was taken aback and yet sucked in at the same time. I finally put on my big boy pants and could sort through the various opines/perspectives whether humorous, impudent, or bitter anger, and usually appreciate the person behind the comments. I became even more understanding of others once I found myself "de-deaconed" and disfellowshipped from UCG and supposedly outside the bounds of my Lord's grace. I have actually learned a number of things from folks posting here; particularily from Dennis, Larry and you, Gavin. Your personal example of open heartedness to people of various stripes and personal baggage is encouraging.

Larry is absolutely right that God is not finished with any of us yet. I personally believe there are many atheists who will fare far better in the judgement than most ministers of cog-land (or most Christian churches). I know most "non-believers" would find the previous statement humorous since they do not believe in God hence there is no judgement, however, I strongly believe we are all spiritual brothers by us all having the same spiritual origin. The name and understanding of our origin is different in different cultures and places over the ages, but there is the source of life for each of us. Anyhow, the God whom I know in a personal, experiental way after dumping the cultic mindset of cog, does not seem to have a terminal view of humanity so then I cannot and should not either.

Dennis, I have a very hard time attending any church as well. I visit a few churches locally from time to time, but the machine of each is very distracting to the spirit. I find some spiritual benefit either attending or preaching the chapel service at the local homeless and rehab shelter. Since there is no money involved it seems to be a simple and rather focused lot, and I enjoy discussions and prayer with others there as they are usually quite genuine and full of struggle.

Thanks again, Gavin.

jds

"Or did you think that atheists could refrain from...

2008-11-20T06:12:00.000+13:00

"Or did you think that atheists could refrain from their angry swearing and depravity..."

Oh, the depths of depravity that I have foundered in! Swearing! Eating shrimp! Christmas Shopping! Uttter depravity! Do not turn Thine Eye away from me, Oh Great Pumpkin, er, I mean Jesus!

Paul Ray

Anonymous 4:52 wrote:"However, if you try to find ...

2008-11-20T05:25:00.000+13:00

Anonymous 4:52 wrote:
"However, if you try to find fault with the Bible, you can be sure that it will just show a serious fault with your own self."

Sorry, Anon, free exchange of ideas just doesn't allow you to put certain ideas or sources "off limits." This is what Dark Age Christianity did. This is what the world of Islam does, at threat of death. And the terrible results are recorded in the history books in the former's case, and both history and current newspapers in the latter's.

You are in favor of debate...as long as your cherished foundations are protected - that way you don't have to argue for them nor demonstrate them with logic, evidence and fact.

The real world of intellectual exchange just doesn't work according to your limits and restrictions. Better stick to the stifling confines of religion - that way you can evade having to prove and/or document your assertions.

Gadzooks! Man the bazookas! De-rack the rakes! Un...

2008-11-20T04:24:00.000+13:00

Gadzooks! Man the bazookas! De-rack the rakes! Un-pitch the forks!

Light the torches amidst this verdant darkness!

Never again shall we be savaged by the sheeple again!

"I invite a few contributors on this blog to consi...

2008-11-19T23:56:00.000+13:00

"I invite a few contributors on this blog to consider that when more than a few former WCG members transverse from their old beliefs into a new model, many fervently proclaim their "new truth" -- be it atheism or whatever "ism" -- with the same zest and vertical intolerant mindset that they possessed regarding former Armstrong-fueled beliefs."

That was Gavin's point, I believe, and it's one I have been making ever since the evangelizing Christians started not-so-gently trying to push me into their black-and-white mindset back on the old Shadows forum.

The thing that pissed me off about Shadows (oooooh I cussed that means I'm demon-possessed --- NOT) was the hypocrisy, not the religion. They said they were all things to all people, but patently they were not.

At least at ISA, we guarantee that we are NOT "all things to all people", and never intend to be. (At least I never intend to be.)

Trader With Style here - just forgot my Google pas...

2008-11-19T17:09:00.000+13:00

Trader With Style here - just forgot my Google password. I'll add a humble, but hearty "so be it" to Gavin's comments, particularly the "snicker" application.

I invite a few contributors on this blog to consider that when more than a few former WCG members transverse from their old beliefs into a new model, many fervently proclaim their "new truth" -- be it atheism or whatever "ism" -- with the same zest and vertical intolerant mindset that they possessed regarding former Armstrong-fueled beliefs.

If humans are good at anything, they make great "label-making machines," slapping on superfical tags that mean little but sound great. I would suggest that a variant on the Monty Python theme -- "I was an idiot, but then I got better" -- appears to hold little weight here in terms of justification.

We tend to forget that the book of Acts represents a considerable amount of open conflict between 1st century Christians, many of whom were eye-witnesses or 1st generation believers. Was that a bad thing? Measured conflict requires us to consider our belief structures in ways that can strengthen us in important ways. Ad hominem tautology only brings us back to the very things we purport to abhor.

Forgive me for indulging in perhaps a little "master of the obvious" here; hopefully reasonable dissent can continue to challenge and strengthen us as we all find our way.

Gavin said...Genteel debate is more the style I ha...

2008-11-19T16:52:00.000+13:00

Gavin said...

Genteel debate is more the style I had in mind way back when AW relaunched in this format....

Gavin,

The AW blog could be useful for such things as exposing the false prophets on the COG scene, their wrong guesses, and their bad behavior. AW could actually help people by telling the REAL TRUTH (no apologies to David Pack) about what goes on in the COG scene. People cannot get this sort of information from their official church sources.

However, if you try to find fault with the Bible, you can be sure that it will just show a serious fault with your own self. By now you should have seen enough of the "thinking," language, and behavior of those who reject the Bible (including the Sunday keeping sinners who reject it) to know better. Or did you think that atheists could refrain from their angry swearing and depravity long enough to pass themselves off as "genteel" and civilized?

"Perhaps belonging to anything is just not possibl...

2008-11-19T14:14:00.001+13:00

"Perhaps belonging to anything is just not possible anymore."

Why is it necessary?

Well Corky, Christians never get fair treatment fr...

2008-11-19T14:03:00.000+13:00

Well Corky, Christians never get fair treatment from the Press. Some things never change.

Anonymous 12:34. Anonymous commenting is actually...

2008-11-19T12:17:00.000+13:00

Anonymous 12:34. Anonymous commenting is actually recommended as an educational exercise? Wow. This changes everything! Like a banana, I think it's got a certain amount of a peel! It might even help deflect some of those spitballs we've been slinging.

BB