Comments on Ambassador Watch: The Dwight Stuff

Hi there, Deborah Armstrong here (Dwight Armstrong...

2008-04-07T07:18:00.000+12:00

Hi there, Deborah Armstrong here (Dwight Armstrong's daughter).

Wow... it is really amazing to see how many people remember my father's music.

To end speculation on where they originated from: No, my father did not make up the words. He did compose the music, and the muisc only.

The words came from psaltered versions of the psalms as some have posted. Since these were Old Testiment, they did not include verses about Jesus. I think also that Herbert wanted it that way. In any case, my mother, Karen Armstrong, put a lot of work into helping to arrange the hymns, lyrics to music and in some cases certain words were changed so that the music flowed better.

Someone commented that my father was not compensated for his work. This is not true. Herbert did pay my father a salary. True, the mortgage on our home was not paid off when he died, but that is how it is for most of us these days, isn't it?? I have no complaints or bitterness about the way my father was compensated. We were not "rich" but we were not poor either. And yes, my father paid tithes faithfully until his death and did attend church services when health allowed.

He also wrote dozens of hymns that were never published. Herbert was planning to include them in a new hymnal in the 80's, but he died before the hymnal came out. I believe that the editorial staff simply chose not to include my father's new hymns, which is a shame, since he wrote many of them while he was dying of cancer.

Yes, I admit some of his music was very "minor" in it's flavor. I think it's a stretch to call them "dirges" though... especially considering some of the hymns sung in other churches!! And at least they are not the overly cheerful "Jesus" music sung in some churches either or on Christian "Rock" stations! Gah - I really don't care much for "Christian" music! *shudder*

Interestingly, when I traveled to Jerusalem and I heard Jews singing hymns on the Sabbath, by the wall of the temple - I was amazed at how much the music reminded me of my Father's. Maybe some of his own Hebrew background came out in the music? He certainly did love minor keys.

In any case, my father was a quiet, humble person - almost the opposite personality of his brother Herbert, but he did take a lot of pride in his music. He kept to himself and wanted nothing to do with church "politics."

And his middle name was not "David" as someone posted - it was "Leslie" - my middle name too!

"but for sake of simplicity] backwards to see if t...

2007-02-13T07:39:00.000+13:00

"but for sake of simplicity] backwards to see if they contain... messages? Something from the Young Ambassadors or Pasadena Feast Choir which remotely suggests something comprehensible, but not having a meaning related to the song?"

I did that once on the campus station. The powers that be weren't amused.

Say -- and this seems to be on topic -- has anyone...

2007-02-12T15:29:00.000+13:00

Say -- and this seems to be on topic -- has anyone tried playing the Dwight Armstrong hymns [not truly his, but for sake of simplicity] backwards to see if they contain... messages? Something from the Young Ambassadors or Pasadena Feast Choir which remotely suggests something comprehensible, but not having a meaning related to the song?

"...seems to me to be rather like playing your rec...

2007-02-12T12:22:00.000+13:00

"...seems to me to be rather like playing your records backwards trying to find satanic messages."

Both the reference to Malachi and the lyrics were played forward as written....

"Jared Olar what is wrong with these words of........

2007-02-12T12:19:00.000+13:00

"Jared Olar what is wrong with these words of.............. Shine Jesus Shine"

As I said, they're a string of changing metaphors. The lyrics display a decided lack of talent in musical composition. But hey, it's got a great beat and you can dance to it, Dick! I give it a 47!

That being said, I doubt "Shine Jesus Shine" provides any evidence that the Christian God is a solar deity, and finding hidden astrological meanings in Malachi's prophecy of the Sun of Righteousness rising with healing in the folds of His garments (or finding them in any other biblical prophecy for that matter) seems to me to be rather like playing your records backwards trying to find satanic messages. Anyway, I had no idea talking about Dwight Armstrong hymns could so quickly veer so far afield.

Oh, the COGmeisters won't interpret this as being ...

2007-02-12T12:06:00.000+13:00

Oh, the COGmeisters won't interpret this as being enlightening! They'll use us as examples in their sermons of what happens when people leave "God's" church and lose the Holy Spirit. In other words, we end up reaffirming their faith!

Our "enlightenment", to them, is a "reprobate" mind.

Gammer

BB,From what I've read the Baha'i faith has many g...

2007-02-12T12:01:00.000+13:00

BB,

From what I've read the Baha'i faith has many good teachings. And maybe in 150 years someone may say the same about Armstrong teachings, not knowing or having lived it, as many of us have.

You said
"What impressed me in this case was that the Baha'i, while still believing in a literal creation, at least made an effort to acknowledge archaeological and fossil records. Biblical inerrantists, since they single source all of their information, simply reject Neanderthal fossils, ancient cave writings, and many other curiosities."

The earth reveals it's history.

To reject what is obvious is not wise.

God speaks to us in the heavens and in the layers of this earth if one would only open their eyes and not overlook some of the scripture that would help identify what has transpired over eons.

TO ALL THOSE WHO POSTED THANK YOU FOR NOT THINKING...

2007-02-12T11:37:00.000+13:00

TO ALL THOSE WHO POSTED THANK YOU FOR NOT THINKING IN THE BOX. YOU JUST MIGHT LEARN MORE TRUTH THEN YOU ARE WILLING TO EXCEPT. BESIDES, IT SCARES THE HELL OUT OF THE BIG FOUR COG'S. PEOPLE THINKING ON THEIR OWN. MAYBE THAT IS WHY THE PHARISEES HATED CHRIST, HE CONSISTENTLY THOUGHT AND TAUGHT OUTSIDE THE BOX.

Trudie,I am not Baha'i, and I am no longer an Arms...

2007-02-12T10:50:00.000+13:00

Trudie,

I am not Baha'i, and I am no longer an Armstrongite. From time to time, for the purpose of discussion, I will introduce a novel bit of thinking from various eclectic sources. What impressed me in this case was that the Baha'i, while still believing in a literal creation, at least made an effort to acknowledge archaeological and fossil records. Biblical inerrantists, since they single source all of their information, simply reject Neanderthal fossils, ancient cave writings, and many other curiosities. As our friend, the King of Siam would say, "That is most unscientific!"

BB

Should the Bible Hymnal be called " Lewny Tewns" (...

2007-02-12T10:07:00.000+13:00

Should the Bible Hymnal be called " Lewny Tewns" ( the original is copyright)?

Some of those hymns could do with a rename.

"Glorious Things of Thee Are Smoken."

"All People That On Earth Do Smell".

"By the Whoreters of Babbleon".

Some of those lyrics could be described as Flotsam and Jutsum.

Etc etc

Jorgheinz

Psalm 19 (New Living Translation)1 The heavens pro...

2007-02-12T09:54:00.000+13:00

Psalm 19 (New Living Translation)

1 The heavens proclaim the glory of God.The skies display his craftsmanship.
2 Day after day they continue to speak; night after night they make him known.
3 They speak without a sound or word; their voice is never heard.
4 Yet their message has gone throughout the earth,and their words to all the world.

I believe the Creator God was the architect of this universe with a well thought out blueprint and His message was put in that cosmic expanse for all to see, but few heed.

He gives us free will to think, reason and choose the belief in which we feel is the most logical.
(He does not beat us into submission, He gives us freedom of thought )

Since none of us were there to witness the beginning of the creation of this earth and
mankind’s involvement throughout the ages... it is a matter of faith either way in what we choose to believe.

I think it is more logical to believe in the inventor Creator, than what transpired after in
the form of pagan folk lore..

But I don't have any pressing need to engage in convincing anyone either. Just dealing with myself is a full time job.
I'm still a work in progress and keeping the door open to learn as much as I can.

BB

Bahá’í faith has only been around since mid-nineteenth century.

The Baha`u`lla`h is another who claims to be a divine messenger of truth.

Why should one believe him any more than Herbert W?

There are always going to be divine messengers ready to reveal
" new truth "

We can pick and choose among many.
Or we can settle on ONE. :)

I like how you think BB!

2007-02-12T08:44:00.000+13:00

I like how you think BB!

Ah, but the Armstrongites have this all covered, D...

2007-02-12T08:29:00.000+13:00

Ah, but the Armstrongites have this all covered, Dennis. They believe in a literal creation involving the "real" people, Adam and Eve. They believe that the "truth" was delivered and known by humans thousands of years prior to Moses, and that the pagans who named the heavenly bodies and constellations still had elements of truth.

They would never consider the Baha'i teaching that Adam was the first "god conscious" man, others having evolved as evidenced by the fossil record. And, they'd never believe that Noah's flood was a large scale local event, isolated to Mesopotamia, with aboriginal peoples from evolution or other creations not having been affected by the flood. Without a doubt, they'd never believe that the story of Noah was plagiarized from the Sumerians, who chronicled a flood a thousand or more years prior to Noah.

But, then, this is the sort of thing which happens to people when they stick to literalism in their interpretation of one book, unaware of history, allegory, or prevailing philosophies in the surrounding cultures which could have crept into that book.

BB

speaking of hymns..."In the center, around the thr...

2007-02-12T07:20:00.000+13:00

speaking of hymns...

"In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, (SEASONS) and they were covered with eyes,(STARS)in front and in back. The first living creature was like a lion,(LEO) the second was like an ox,(TAURUS) the third had a face like a man,(AQUIRIUS) the fourth was like a flying eagle.(AQUILA) Each of the four living creatures had six wings ( EACH TOOK UP SIX SLICES OF THE SKY TO MAKE 4facesx6parts of sky=24 hours around the sky) and was covered with eyes (STARS) all around, even under his wings. Day and night (FULL 24 HOURS)they never stop saying:

Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,
who was (YESTERDAY) and is(TODAY) and is to come.(TOMORROW)"

ok, I'll go away, but next time you hear Dave Pack squawling about Revelation this and that and motivating people with literalism and "just around the corner," tell him to look up....

...not to mention the 12 sons, 12 tribes, the 12 ...

2007-02-12T06:57:00.000+13:00

...not to mention the 12 sons, 12 tribes, the 12 stones in the Urim and Thumbnumbs, 12 disciples who surround the central Son, 12 apostles, 12 pillars of Hercules, 12 gates in the Holy city, and the mosiac zodiac on the Synagogue floor in Capernum Throw in the 144,000 and the woman in Rev who stands with the stars on her head and the moon at her feet and viola'
astro-theology comes alive!

oh heck, let's throw in..."Surrounding the throne (Casseopia) were twenty-four other thrones,(hour in the day) and seated on them were twenty-four elders. (Hours in the day) They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads. From the throne came flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder. Before the throne, (Casseopia) seven lamps were blazing. These are the seven spirits of God. (Seven stars opposite Casseopia in the North, the Big Dipper) Also before the throne, there was what looked like sea of glass, clear as crystal. (The Milky Way)

It's as above, so below all over again! :)

All four of these stars are arranged three signs a...

2007-02-12T06:23:00.000+13:00

All four of these stars are arranged three signs apart, in the four corners of the heavens - the four fixed signs of the zodiac. These are the four creatures which combine to form scriptural cherubim.

So that's it!

I always wondered why Herbert Armstrong bought that silver and gold stand with the signs of the Zodiac on it!

"But what, say, the Seventh-Day Baptist household,...

2007-02-12T04:36:00.000+13:00

"But what, say, the Seventh-Day Baptist household, or the United Church of God household will discover in sending forth its young people is that in teaching Christ to Gentile converts, the young person will grow in grace and knowledge, and in experience in rightly dividing the Word of God."

I would question whether they would have enough knowledge of which Christ to teach...the Jesus of history, or the Cosmic Christ of Paul. After a time, those Bible readers "converted" to Christ, will start to argue and fuss over which Jesus, which rules are eternal and which are not, what was the message, what about the unsaved, what about law that Paul is for or against depending. And just what is "the truth."

I know of several heart driven missionaries not shackled by denominatinal spin who simply learn as time goes on that people don't change, the love to argue and will stab you in the back for Jesus sake and in his name...amen.

Ideally, what you say sounds nice. In fact, practice and outcome, it's a mixed success.

My local church would have been generally happy for me to take them out of WCG and just be ourselves. They did not, nor did I fully realize that I was not capable of that anymore either, no matter the "group" I had moved on, was somewhat damaged and did't wish to exchange Worldwide drama for local drama.

But it's a nice thought.

Respectfully too..."I" would not be comfortable in...

2007-02-12T04:18:00.000+13:00

Respectfully too...

"I" would not be comfortable in a place where it was always bright with no hope of the peace that darkness can bring literally. Too much sunshine or even SONshine would be too much constant information for me to process.

It is no coincidence that even in the book of Revelation, solar mythology is very obvious. It is no coincidence that the four faced angels are the same constellations of the four seasons....

For example..What about the four creatures/faces of a cherub? The face of man, a lion, an eagle and an ox. Fascinating coincidence perhaps, or another example of "as above, so below."

Look to four of the brightest stars in the zodiac;
Fomalhaut in Aquarius (man) Winter
Regulus in Leo (lion) Spring
Antares in Ophiuchus (serpent holder, or eagle) Summer
Aldebaran in Taurus (the bull) Fall

All four of these stars are arranged three signs apart, in the four corners of the heavens - the four fixed signs of the zodiac. These are the four creatures which combine to form scriptural cherubim.

This seems true to me as an origin of the four faced Angels of Ezekiel and Revelation.

To Dennis:You said: "Groups don't grow well in any...

2007-02-12T04:05:00.000+13:00

To Dennis:

You said: "Groups don't grow well in any kind of grace and knowledge in my personal expereince. They grow in the kind of grace enforced by law and the kind of knowledge that is acceptable to the group. Otherwise the individual is subject to being marginalized for seeking that which the group won't examine and can't afford to adopt as a belief because it brings up the idea of "can't you make up your mind what the truth is?" That can be fatal to a group's credibility. Individuals can change. Groups can try,"

The top-down, centralized governmental structure of the derivative splinters of the former Radio Church of God effectively stymied personal evangelism and missionary activity and killed, or will kill the organization. These fellowships have, within their institutional patterns, the seeds of their own demise—as do fellowships like the Seventh Day Adventists. For within a few generations, few are left who have cleansed their hearts by faith. The organization is spiritually dead. And today, such an organization is the Seventh-Day Baptists, which publicly acknowledges that the fellowship grows by familial association (i.e., the fellowship’s growth comes from baptizing their own children).

The fellowship that will grow is the one which sends forth second generation disciples as missionaries for Christ Jesus, with each missionary teaching first generation converts to cleanse their hearts by faith. It does no good, say, for a Seventh-Day Baptist household to send forth missionaries who do not teach that the Sabbath is to be kept (i.e., to send their young people out as missionaries with 8th-day Baptists). Likewise, it will do no good for a United Church of God household to send forth missionaries who do not teach that all of the Sabbaths of God are to be kept.

But what, say, the Seventh-Day Baptist household, or the United Church of God household will discover in sending forth its young people is that in teaching Christ to Gentile converts, the young person will grow in grace and knowledge, and in experience in rightly dividing the Word of God. The young person will journey beyond where the household is presently theologically located to the horror of the household. This young person will journey closer to that heavenly city of Jerusalem where the temple of God is presently under construction. Therefore, perhaps intuitively recognizing that households such as the Seventh-Day Baptists or United Church of God will fail if their young people actually sell all they have and follow Christ Jesus, these organization place prohibitively restrictive barriers in front of their young people. These barriers are primarily intended to protect the organization—and in protecting the organization, the fellowship prevents its second [next] generation from cleaning hearts by faith, thereby assuring that the organization will disappear into the flotsam of history as spindrift along the lips of the spiritual River Jordan.

Respectfully,
Anonymous

To Trudie and Dennis:Mal 4:2 But unto you that fea...

2007-02-12T03:55:00.000+13:00

To Trudie and Dennis:

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

and 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do [this], saith the LORD of hosts.

When the Sun of righteousness comes is explained in
Rev 21:23-25 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb [is] the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

Jesus will shine then.

Respectfully,
Anonymous

a bit more...it is perfectly fine for anyone to be...

2007-02-12T03:31:00.000+13:00

a bit more...

it is perfectly fine for anyone to believe anything that they wish based on whatever views and study they have done, at any particular time in their life. I was a true believer, both as a Presbyterian and in WCG.

Some are content to stay the same, even for an entire lifetime. There are many scriptures that discourage intellect, discovery and seeking. The seeking that is encouraged is to seek the pre-selected truth and join the group. Groups don't grow well in any kind of grace and knowledge in my personal expereince. They grow in the kind of grace enforced by law and the kind of knowledge that is acceptable to the group. Otherwise the individual is subject to being marginalized for seeking that which the group won't examine and can't afford to adopt as a belief because it brings up the idea of "can't you make up your mind what the truth is?" That can be fatal to a group's credibility. Individuals can change. Groups can try, but look at how recklessly WCG went about it and all they ended up with was a group that has the depth of a Sunday school lesson for kids.

If anything, Jesus promoted indivuality and authenticity in people, and not conformity to a system of beliefs. I define my own present truth (term used in the NT but never really meant by churches and a much better term than "the Plain Truth") as being Non-Condemnational. We all are we all are and it rarely will all be in the same, clones of each other place.

It's why I don't have a pressing need to engage in convincing or winning anyone over to anything. I more enjoy getting people thinking for themselves, no matter the results for them personally. Groups of like minded people are fine and nice, if they don't make demands on one's authentic self or personal ability to see what that they see or not agree with what they don't agree with. It's a more healthy way to live. I know too many who are depressed, angry, vindictive and even dead, who choose to fight what is and probably will for the rest of their lives, to their hurt. I just have to deal with myself and it is a nice freedom, a bit less stressful, and keeps the door open to learning more about the truths humans can come up with and how they did it.

I totally understand that. The idea that Satan has...

2007-02-12T03:07:00.000+13:00

I totally understand that. The idea that Satan has duplicated the story of the real Jesus in non real mythological figures, and that the solar mythologies are concocted after the fact, is common. Satan did this to throw humanity off the track when the real Jesus came. I just don't believe that explanation any more, if I ever did. Personally, I do not believe in Satan, his fall from heaven also well explained in the mythology surrounding the real phenomenon of the planet Venus preceeding the Sun as Lightbringer and then apearing to fall back to earth. Nuther story I guess. It is a way to explain such coincidences in the story of Jesus. The fact that Virgo, the Virgin (the constellation) has been "bringing forth the Sun" prior to it's birth on December 25th from the drift southward at the solstice, is why many saviors of mankind had such a pedigree. As above, so below as the Bible seems to say.

For me, this perspective is more real. I understand why it might not be for others. We are all a product of our studies and willingness to step outside boxes and answer the questions one has always had reserved quietly in themselves until a good time to explore them presents itself.

DennisSir,With all due respect I have read elsewhe...

2007-02-12T02:32:00.000+13:00

Dennis

Sir,
With all due respect I have read elsewhere comments that Jesus was copied from myth and Mithra fables of the sun god.

Personally my belief is that the Almighty Creator God came first and all else are imitations of His plan and purpose to try and deceive mankind and turn them from God.

It appears the deception has succeeded.

Actually I liked Shine Jesus Shine in the brief ti...

2007-02-12T02:31:00.000+13:00

Actually I liked Shine Jesus Shine in the brief time I overlapped being a pastor and coming to different conclusions about my religious life experience. It had an uplifting feel to it and was easy to sing. As pointed out, finding the name of Jesus in any WCG song was near impossible and a glaring anomoly for a Christian church. Of course, with the emphasis on a Jewish Christian church, it could be expected, along with the idea that the message was not about Jesus but the message Jesus brought depending on just what one thought that message was. Actually the NT is the message of Jesus as explained by others, some of whom never met Jesus, and others who claim to have, but can't agree on the story or the meaning of the experience.

oops, sorry for two posts, thought it didn't take....

2007-02-12T02:12:00.000+13:00

oops, sorry for two posts, thought it didn't take....