Comments on Ambassador Watch: The same but different

2008-03-22T06:52:00.001+13:00

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Don't forget the Indians who believe they are Mana...

2008-03-22T06:52:00.000+13:00

Don't forget the Indians who believe they are Manasseh.

Name three splinters from Jehovah's Witnesses. (I ...

2008-03-21T16:50:00.000+13:00

Name three splinters from Jehovah's Witnesses. (I can name just one off the top of my head.)

Name three splinters from Seventh-day Adventism. (No, COG7 doesn't count! I can name only two.)

Now name ten WCG splinters. No sweat! Only ten though? I can probably list twenty without coming up for breath...

I think this is largely a function of the fact that we're former Armstrongists: we know the WCG, we know its history well (probably too well). If we'd been JWs or SDAs, I imagine we'd be more familiar with their history of splinter groups.

Not to change the subject, but speaking of a sect (or group of sects) that is "the same (as the WCG) but different," you might find this news report on the Black Israelites to be quite fascinating: sort of an African-American version of Armstrongism, with the strain of racist pseudohistory and obsession with the identity of the tribes of Israel.

http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/
display.php?id=34768

The largest and most well known COG splinter is th...

2008-03-21T16:42:00.000+13:00

The largest and most well known COG splinter is the Roman Catholic Church. Think About It

I've thought about it, a lot. The seventh-day Sabbatarian "Church of God" movement didn't exist until the 1800s. The Catholic Church existed well before the 1800s. So, unless you believe in time travel, there's no way the Catholic Church could have arisen from any self-styled (seventh-day Sabbatarian) "Church of God."

having some similar beliefs does not make one organization an offshoot of another...

True -- but originating from an organisation does.

baptists have similar beliefs to the roman catholics, but that does not make them an offshoot.

True. They're not an offshoot of the Catholics because they have similar beliefs. Rather, the similar beliefs are there because they're an offshoot of the Catholics. What makes the Baptists a Catholic offshoot is the fact that they originated with an English Puritan named John Smyth and several others like him -- the Puritans came from the Anglican Church, which came from the English Catholic Church.

Bamboo Bends said: That's the Adventist view of events

It's also the historical view of things. (You're probably confusing "Adventist" with "Seventh-Day Adventist" -- but there are First-Day Adventist groups.)

The SDAs, JWs, and WCG are all offshoots of the Millerite movement, which thought the world would end in 1844.

The Millerite movement is also known as the Adventist movement. Most Adventists became seventh-day Sabbatarians, and of those the largest number formed the Seventh-Day Adventist denomination in 1860. The remainder eventually became the Church of God (Seventh-Day), unwilling parent of the Radio Church of God/Worldwide Church of God.

"My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birth...

2008-03-20T04:18:00.000+13:00

"My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthday, and also his wedding anniversary July 31st.

In fact, the year I was born, 1957, marked his 65th Birthday and 40th anniversary of HWA. (Please note the symbolic numerology, and begin mailing me tithes!)"

Both Flurry and Pack probably pounded their fists after reading Bill's post, gritting their teeth with envy. I'm serious. These guys would use those dates in their sermons to further solidify their positions as HWA' Heir. Bill, you might just hear yourself referenced in upcoming sermons:

"It's come to my attention that certain elements in the splinters are trying to imply that they are Mr. Armstrong's Heir in the Work by pointing out that dates coincide..."

And ect.

Paul

Aaron Dean probably doesn't give a rat's ass what ...

2008-03-19T18:19:00.000+13:00

Aaron Dean probably doesn't give a rat's ass what the UCG higher-ups think. He'll probably go along, because that's what he does, but it's not likely he'll lose any sleep over it.

Ah, the "we control you" mentality. What a scream.

Dear Braveheart Tom:I remember when you posted as ...

2008-03-19T17:47:00.000+13:00

Dear Braveheart Tom:

I remember when you posted as "VistaAdmin". Were you a coward then?

Lussenheide I am sorry. I thought you where the gu...

2008-03-19T13:33:00.000+13:00

Lussenheide I am sorry. I thought you where the guy? that makes the videos about herb. He also was on the painfultruth website claiming the same thing some years ago. What does Aaron got to do with this?

I am not "The Video Guy". On another note, some ve...

2008-03-19T12:50:00.000+13:00

I am not "The Video Guy".

On another note, some verified information from a reliable source on another forum....

It seems a letter has been sent to the elders in UCG...regarding Aaron
Dean. What sin according to UCG did Aaron commit? He spoke to an
outside audience...other than one sanctioned by UCG officials. He is
prohibited from speaking ANYWHERE for the next several months. And the
report that I received is that some of the folks he spoke with are
considering attending or have attended UCG because of his talk with
them. Oh how typical!! When will they learn to stop shooting
themselves in the foot???

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthd...

2008-03-19T12:44:00.000+13:00

My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthday, and also his wedding anniversary July 31st.
Aww. I remember the video guy saying the same thing. So you are him?

My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthd...

2008-03-19T12:27:00.000+13:00

My birthday happens to correspond with HWAs birthday, and also his wedding anniversary July 31st.

In fact, the year I was born, 1957, marked his 65th Birthday and 40th anniversary of HWA. (Please note the symbolic numerology, and begin mailing me tithes!)

Im not an adherent, and just learned about the Norse pagan day posted just above called "Lithasblot".

Interetingly enough, it too is on July 31st!

Here is what a quick google search found about this day...

Lithasblot 1941 was allegedly the time when the magical lodges of England performed rituals to keep the Nazi forces from invading their country; which may have worked, since Hitler eventually abandoned plans to invade Great Britain. Lithasblot has long been associated with ceremonial magic and magical workings.

As a child I thought that all my July 31st birthday ever meant societally and historically, was that it was going to be hotter than hell outside, and you better eat your dixie doodle ice cream bar quick!

I am now privlidged to know that my birthday is now associated with both a cult and pagans! LOL!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Walpurgis is from April 22 through May 1st. Sounds...

2008-03-19T11:37:00.000+13:00

Walpurgis is from April 22 through May 1st. Sounds like all the work of the Feast

Talk about splinters. We have forgotten about the ...

2008-03-19T11:09:00.000+13:00

Talk about splinters. We have forgotten about the ancient Norse gods such as Thor and Odin. Thorsday is next Thursday, and every Thursday for that matter. People still worship these gods in fact about 15,000 people do. The next holy day is Walpurgis 22 April, Lithasblot is 31st of July.Their Holy Day schedule can be found www.wizardrealm.com/norse/index. or just google around Norse god worshiping. Happy Walpurgis Day to you all. Can Halmark start marketing Walpurgis day cards? Can we use our rights to ask for that day off? Can we make some money marketing gifts for Walpurgis Day?

DennisDiehl said...>>PS Tom all that aren't like y...

2008-03-19T10:28:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl said...

>>PS Tom all that aren't like you aren't the enemy.<<

Tom Mahon said...
Aren't they? Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us." So I prefer to believe Jesus, you won't be surprised to learn!"

Where exactly did you find that quote of Jesus? I think you made it up and are adding to the scriptures as Jesus warned against in the book of revelation, and all the horrible things you wish upon Paul and others will happen to you if the fairy tale were to come true. You added to scripture, and twisted what Jesus said.

Paul, you have nothing to worry about from Toms imaginary horse. His imaginary God is so powerless that he can't even stop a simple mosquito from biting a child in a jungle and infecting it with the deadly malaria virus. So much for his loving Gods power.

On the other hand, scientists have devised ways to prevent malaria and heal malaria victims. Something Toms God is powerless to do.

Am I worried about Toms deranged, homicidal (and powerless) deity? Hmmm... Nope!!!

Thomas Munson

It's interesting to reflect that in all the years ...

2008-03-19T09:33:00.000+13:00

It's interesting to reflect that in all the years of my own WCG membership, I don't recall the actual word 'church' being examined critically - odd, considering the exact meaning of different words was so often considered critical to true doctrine. It appears 'church' evolved, as language does, from the Greek kuriakon, which does not appear at all in the Greek manuscripts (kuriakos does, twice, but not kuriakon). Kuriakon essentially means 'place/house where homage is paid to the overlord (any lord)'.

The correct word for the body of Christ - ekklesia - should be in English 'assembly' or 'congregation'. This focuses on the people, not an organisation or structure built over the people. It focuses on the empowerment of local fellowship groups - to appoint their own elders, etc, etc.

The word 'church' itself creates its own enslaving structural environment of hierarchy, exactly as it was intended to do so. The KJV translators were instructed to prefer 'church' over the correct options for 'ekklesia', unlike Tyndale who only used 'church' once - to describe a pagan temple (its more correct use).

Odd indeed that this 'truth' escaped scrutiny.... and still escapes the scrutiny today of the many offshoots. They fail to see that their structure is wholly worldly, not scriptural at all.

Do spiritual horses have spirit hoofs, or real hoo...

2008-03-19T09:10:00.000+13:00

Do spiritual horses have spirit hoofs, or real hoofs? I mean, will a spirit hoof hurt? Or does the spirit horse turn his spirit hoof into a real hoof the instant before it strikes the skull of a terrified atheist?

Paul

"They are spiritual horses. Your puny weapon will ...

2008-03-19T09:08:00.000+13:00

"They are spiritual horses. Your puny weapon will be about as effective as a hoot in a whirlwind."

Oh yeah, what if I have a spiritual 7.62mm round fired from a spiritual automatic weapon?

What about witchcraft? Would that work?

Thanks for the remark about my atheism preventing me from being in the Wonderful World Tomorrow. It only furthers my resolve. I don't want to be there. Who wants to be ruled by a drunken child molester who treats those under his control like animals?

Paul

Tom, you are one sick puppy.

2008-03-19T09:05:00.000+13:00

Tom, you are one sick puppy.

Lussenheide said...>>>The opportunity to preach, o...

2008-03-19T08:20:00.000+13:00

Lussenheide said...

>>>The opportunity to preach, or teach or publish is virtually unlimited. SDAs have no restrictions on someone deciding to form a ministry or to publish.<<<

This is not surprising. The JWs don't have any sacred doctrines to protect, but the church of God does! Note Paul's admonition to Timothy thus: "Take heed to yourself, and unto the DOCTRINE; continue in them: for in doing this you shall both save yourself, and them that hear you"(1 Tim.4:16).

The sacred doctrine of God's church, which were revealed to the church through Christ, teach God's elect what to believe and how to worship God.

OTOH, pagan churches may change their doctrines as and when they wish, for they worship the devil!

Paul wonders:>>>I wonder if the Cannanites were gi...

2008-03-19T07:50:00.000+13:00

Paul wonders:

>>>I wonder if the Cannanites were given ample warning to repent before the Israelite Hammer fell?<<<

It doesn't matter whether they were warned not or not. "For as many as have sinned without the law shall also perish without the law."

>>>By the way, I wonder if a 7.62mm round will stop a Horse of the Apocalypse?<<<

They are spiritual horses. Your puny weapon will be about as effective as a hoot in a whirlwind.

>>>Will these horses break down my front door, or will they wait for me to go out, and catch me unawares?<<<

Breaking down your front door won't be necessary. You will be forced to flee your home, and they will be waiting!

>>>I wouldn't mind being trampled to death early on in the Tribulation, though.<<<

Sadly, this wish will not be granted. You will be trampled, but not permitted to die.

>>>Above all, I do not want to live in the Wonderful World Tomorrow if it's run by you, Theil, Spanky, and Herb the Drunken Molester.<<<

I don't know what will happened to Spanky or Thiel, but if you continue being an atheist you won't be there.

'...I wonder if the Cannanites were given ample wa...

2008-03-19T07:00:00.000+13:00

'...I wonder if the Cannanites were given ample warning to repent before the Israelite Hammer fell?...'

In Abraham's time God was patient with 'the iniquity of the Amorites' - not expelled until the Exodus.

Then there was Melchizadek - Prince in Salem, a Canaanite city at the time of Sodom.

And would the latter not be a warning to them?

It's hard work trying to find and align oneself wi...

2008-03-19T02:26:00.000+13:00

It's hard work trying to find and align oneself with the one true pure mythology.

Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us....

2008-03-19T01:01:00.000+13:00

Jesus said, "Those who are with us are against us."

Blasphemy. Jesus never said that, or at least it just isn't in Scripture, but we should come to expect this sort of thing from an idolater.

The reason for all the schisms: Herbert Armstrong was the Church of God. He was God as God is God, but not God. People worshiped him. It gave them empowerment. It gave him what he wanted: Arrogant empowerment to at last have people listen to and believe in his silly ideas which never amounted to anything. Not only did they not amount to anything, but after he died, they fell apart -- betrayed by the very people he entrusted to carry on his ideas after his death -- the only life after death he could have.

Two sorts of people seemed to be attracted to the WCG: Conspiracy theory nuts who wanted to believe that everyone in power was lying and the world was going to hell in a handbasket and the ultra conservatives who wanted to believe in law and order, stability, predictability and status quo. Many of the latter seem to have become the Republican dog owning pastards. There were also others who lived in fear in their pathetic lives who wanted to believe that they could and would be somebody important some day if only they did what they perceived Herbert Armstrong wanted them to do: They were trampled victims in this life, but in the future they could be God. Unfortunately, they were trampled by Herbert Armstrong's cash machine and don't seem to have a future.

In such a chaotic environment filled with dread and hubris, there was absolutely no future after the death of Herbert Armstrong: The dream of his ideas ended and reality set in. His false prophecies became a deep disappointment to many and the power hungry who lusted in the pride of life and wanted to BE IN CHARGE attempted to take over, but the environment was gone forever and there isn't anyone much anymore who would believe in the nonsensical 50s stuff which has been transmogrified into threats from radical Arab Islamic terrorists -- something which could have been predicted by those looking at Scripture, but somehow lost on Armstrongists.

If Herbert Armstrong were such a decent God fearing man, one would think that God would have continued his line, but, alas, much like Eli and others in Scripture, his day came and went and so did his blood line which was utterly cut off, unless you want to count the non minister minister, Mark, presiding over less and less and less.

Pretenders who can't even get Scripture right want to ride the coat tails of Herbert Armstrong as "the man" -- the narcissist who wanted to be somebody and have people believe his ideas, filled with the pride of life. He held the WCG together with the force of his will and all that money that people gave to him to support the propagation of his ideas.

His ideas are worthless.

So now people have to rethink their positions and regroup. Many are stuck with his ideas and won't give them up -- but find hundreds of other flavors. Others attempt to use Herbert Armstrong as a talisman in their idolatry to support their little tiny "work" and give it credence. For example, even thought they don't agree with Herbert Armstrong, particularly in when the holydays should be kept, the Church of God in Truth plays Herbert Armstrong tapes every third week or so: It's just plain weird to hear a dead man from the grave shout at the top of his voice about homosexuals, but there it is.

Now it is true that some of the smaller groups all go to the Feast together. There are some who are from United, Living and others who attend with groups that have nothing to do with the groups they gather with from week to week. The "Brethren" are just fine together and there can be a great deal of cooperation.

The competition and divisions mainly come from the leadership determined that they have the best grasp of what "Mr. Armstrong"'s ideas were and pride themselves in pushing his agenda forward, even though, by this time it should be clear that he was an abject failure and nothing much is left of either his empire or his silly ideas. In creating smaller and smaller groups, the cultmeisters do the theological gene pool a favor by gathering the spiritually weakest at the shallow end of the gene pool and thus contribute to the survival of the fittest with the stronger making progress to a more deep and clear understanding.

Unfortunately for the Armstrongists, they never get any closer to knowing God as The Father, having been blinded by the shiny gold idol they have set up on a pedestal and are busily worshiping, not realizing that the false prophet end time apostle is actually dead now and has no more power to either help them or hurt them except by the constant invocation of his unholy name.

DennisDiehl said...TOM>>>"Jesus said, "Those who a...

2008-03-18T22:26:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl said...

TOM>>>"Jesus said, "Those who are NOT with us are against us<<<

DD>>>He did? I believe this was more the context.

John says some other group of people have been healing people in Jesus' name even though they were not part of the group but Jesus is pleased and says "...For he who is not against us is for us." (9:40).<<<

It was not a group of people. The passage in Mark says, "And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw ONE casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us"(Mark 9:38). And Jesus replied, "Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can likely speak evil of me."

Two points are worth noting here. One, unlike the people in cog-land, the disciples understood that Christ is not divided and God is not the author of confusion.

The second point is, Jesus was teaching that God would only give the power to perform miracles to people he counted faithful. So even though the man was not travelling around with Christ and his disciples, he was still with and for Christ.

DD>>>I do agree that this concept was redacted in Matthew and Luke to take on the more sinister meaning.<<<

It only becomes sinister to those who believe that Christ is divided, and that every splinter group is a church of God.

DD>>>But I just can't find...

"Those that are with us are against us."<<<

I think this might have been either from the Mayan calendar or the Gnostic gospels. I am surprised you couldn't find it, for you seem to be very familiar with the history and teachings of the Mayans, and the inspired origin of the Gnostic gospels.

Glad to see that the Biblical stuff is on another ...

2008-03-18T19:02:00.000+13:00

Glad to see that the Biblical stuff is on another site, I am not biblically oriented.

I think about the self absorbtion in Pasadena during the hey day of WCG before the Bible was deemphasized (perspective changed) by a group of ex-YOU kids.