Comments on Ambassador Watch: Nuking the nutcases

All I can do is point out how irrational their sta...

2007-09-06T01:42:00.000+12:00

All I can do is point out how irrational their stance is, and challenge them to explain the contradictions in their newly found "freedom."

We can disagree with each other on our degree of hatred of HWA and Armstrongism and we can disagree on the existence of gods. We can even disagree over evolution but that is because we are free to do so and you can't stand that can you?

TOM"It would be pointless to attempt to rebut Mr. ...

2007-09-03T01:53:00.000+12:00

TOM"It would be pointless to attempt to rebut Mr. Cline's erroneous thesis, as most of the cabel are of a mind set that is impervious to reason."

Paul>That, as the kids say, is a "cop-out." If you can refute a position using relevant data, then refute it, and do not be concerned whether or not your audience accepts it or not.<<

**********************************

Your suggestion would be a good idea for people who were not associated with WCG. For it is likely that their minds might be opened to an honest, objective and impartial evaluation of the facts. In addition, their minds would not have been warped and twisted by the bitterness of having paid thousands of dollars in tithes and offerings to a church, which they now believe was founded and mis-managed by a charlatan.

On the other hand, 99.9% of those who left WCG, and have joined one of the many divided churches in cog-land, become practice scoffers or, like dogs, returned to their own vomit of Sunday worship and Christmas observance, have been afflicted with a supernatural blindness, which it is impossible to cure. So since I am unable to make the blind see or the deft hear, it would be pointless to post a rebuttal of any of so-called scientific or doctrinal theses that now proliferate the web sites and blogs in cog-land. All I can do is point out how irrational their stance is, and challenge them to explain the contradictions in their newly found "freedom."

Suffice to say, however, that Jesus must have been...

2007-08-30T06:17:00.000+12:00

Suffice to say, however, that Jesus must have been mistaken when he used the phrase, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

A lost sheep may or may not know he is lost, but he ought to know that he is a sheep. But in British Israelism, the lost Israelites are so "lost" that they don't even know that they are really Israelites. (Oh yes, they are Israelites, even though they have no Israelite DNA, aren't circumcised, and don't observe the Torah).

But if they don't even know they are Israelites, how then could it be fair of God to send them into captivity for their violation of a covenant they had no idea they, being Israelites, should have been observing? Surely it is only those who are aware of their obligations who could reasonably be held accountable for their failure to live up to their obligations.

Therefore we must conclude that only Armstrongists of Israelite descent will be carried away into captivity by the Germans.

So much for that Place of Safety . . . .

Neotherm said... Corky wrote: "Matter and energy h...

2007-08-29T06:32:00.000+12:00

Neotherm said...
Corky wrote: "Matter and energy has a good a chance of pre-existing the birth of the universe as a Super, Duper, Intelligence capable of creating something from nothing."

This is an unfounded assertion. You would need to tell me what argument you use to support this idea.

The assertion is founded on the fact that from nothing, nothing comes so there had to be something already existing. This is common knowledge among normal people.

"It would be pointless to attempt to rebut Mr. Cli...

2007-08-29T06:05:00.000+12:00

"It would be pointless to attempt to rebut Mr. Cline's errorneous thesis, as most of the cabel are of a mind set that is impervious to reason."

That, as the kids say, is a "cop-out." If you can refute a position using relevant data, then refute it, and do not be concerned whether or not your audience accepts it or not. You would be surprised at how many people who left the COG's welcome fact and will shift their view to accomodate facts. I mean, after all, critical thinking was a must in exiting the COG.

Paul

Gavin>>There, I feel much better now that's off my...

2007-08-29T04:34:00.000+12:00

Gavin>>There, I feel much better now that's off my chest! ;-)<<

If it was a good idea to get that off your chest, you must have been very ill.

However, you only posted the information about the book because it supports your misguided belief that HWA was a charlatan. If anyone dares to write a book supporting what HWA taught, you and the cabal of regular scoffers would pour scorn on it.

Gavin>>PS, Tom. If you have a dictionary -or even a spell checker - you might gain a bit more credibility by avoiding mistakes like "associted", "associtaed" and "errorneous."<<

You must be either desperate or have nothing useful to say if you have to jump on a couple of spelling mistakes to score a point. In intellectual circles that is described as clutching at straws. But what do drowning men do?

Well, as all of you Herbalists say, "I guess we'll...

2007-08-29T03:22:00.000+12:00

Well, as all of you Herbalists say, "I guess we'll find out".

You'd think that in the years since 1975, everyone would have "found out".

BB

"Yeah, right. Cline has probably never read anythi...

2007-08-28T17:53:00.000+12:00

"Yeah, right. Cline has probably never read anything by Herb. Cline doesn't mention Herb. It could be that he's never heard of Herb. Cline doesn't mention WCG, LCG. UCG, PCG, RCG or any other CoG. Obviously you haven't bothered to engage even minimal brain cells before entering outburst mode."

There you go again Gavin, speaking for someone else. You really shouldn't do that. You have no idea what Cline has or hasn't heard. Why don't you write the man and ask him? You might be surprised.

Talk about minimal brain cells...

This entire thread is a "rant". No facts, no data, no history. Just an opportunity for the Orthodox to "rant".

I guess it makes them feel good...

"Eric Cline's book, From Eden to Exile, is another...

2007-08-28T16:50:00.000+12:00

"Eric Cline's book, From Eden to Exile, is another rant against HWA."

Yeah, right. Cline has probably never read anything by Herb. Cline doesn't mention Herb. It could be that he's never heard of Herb. Cline doesn't mention WCG, LCG. UCG, PCG, RCG or any other CoG. Obviously you haven't bothered to engage even minimal brain cells before entering outburst mode. You certainly haven't read the book before frothing into outrage. If you had you wouldn't make such a downright dumb statement. Cline does talk about the Ten Tribes, but that has nothing specifically to do with Herb. Lots of sects have weird theories about the tribes - including half the population of Utah.

Tom, if you want to argue the point, that's fine, but at least have a point and don't try to wing it with this kind of ignorantly myopic pretense.

There, I feel much better now that's off my chest! ;-)

PS, Tom. If you have a dictionary - or even a spell checker - you might gain a bit more credibility by avoiding mistakes like "associted", "associtaed" and "errorneous."

Eric Cline's book, From Eden to Exile, is another ...

2007-08-28T16:24:00.000+12:00

Eric Cline's book, From Eden to Exile, is another rant against HWA. The book will be welcomed by the growing cabal of disillusioned scoffers, who were once associtaed with WCG. And I deliberately used the associted, because it is evident from the nonsense they now believe, that they were never truly converted.

It would be pointless to attempt to rebut Mr. Cline's errorneous thesis, as most of the cabel are of a mind set that is impervious to reason. Suffice to say, however, that Jesus must have been mistaken when he used the phrase, "the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

"The fact is, God exists..."Evidence?Also, there i...

2007-08-28T12:37:00.000+12:00

"The fact is, God exists..."

Evidence?

Also, there is no such thing as a "non-Creation scientist," for that implies that there are "Creation scientists." There are scientists, and there are delusional people who in all other respects fulfill the role of the scientist excepting critical thinking.

Why would Corky believe that there is a God? Would you also expect Corky to believe that there are space vampires and leprechauns? If not, why? For there is as much evidence for the existence of space vampires and leprechauns as there is for God (and Allah, and Zeus, ect.)

Paul

Corky wrote: "Matter and energy has a good a chanc...

2007-08-28T10:27:00.000+12:00

Corky wrote: "Matter and energy has a good a chance of pre-existing the birth of the universe as a Super, Duper, Intelligence capable of creating something from nothing."

This is an unfounded assertion. You would need to tell me what argument you use to support this idea.

On second thought, don't tell me.

-- Neo

"The fact is, God exists and I think you know it a...

2007-08-28T10:19:00.000+12:00

"The fact is, God exists and I think you know it and I think it really bothers you"

Corky ungarbled it..

"No, the fact is, I don't believe God exists and you do not "know" that one does yourself. And no, it doesn't bother me in the least."

The fact is, God exists and I think you know it an...

2007-08-28T10:01:00.000+12:00

The fact is, God exists and I think you know it and I think it really bothers you.

No, the fact is, I don't believe God exists and you do not "know" that one does yourself. And no, it doesn't bother me in the least.

Matter and energy has a good a chance of pre-existing the birth of the universe as a Super, Duper, Intelligence capable of creating something from nothing.

Because since from nothing, nothing comes, it's impossible anyway.

Anonymous:I am not sure what you meant to write --...

2007-08-28T09:28:00.000+12:00

Anonymous:

I am not sure what you meant to write -- somewhat garbled.

But if you are willing to make your decision based on something as superficial as a side comment made by a creationist, my guess is that your mind is closed and your are not into this very deeply.

-- Neo

"The fact is, God exists and I think you know it a...

2007-08-28T09:08:00.000+12:00

"The fact is, God exists and I think you know it and I think it really bothers you."

Typical if all else fails and I can't make you understand me attack on what someone "must" really think or knows and their true motives for seeing things differently than the author.

Those who so easily and flippantly explain to the ignorant that which God has no doubt told them personally about how all things are, are the reason most could care less for creationist explanations.

Corky: The Creator has always existed and didn't...

2007-08-28T07:52:00.000+12:00

Corky:

The Creator has always existed and didn't come from anywhere. He did not fabricate, as the New Testament tells us, the universe out of already existing material but created it ex nihilo, out of nothing.

There was nothingness with regard to time, space, energy and matter. It is the physical universe that is under discussion.

Like most non-Creationist scientists, you have started with the assumption that something already exists but you have no explanation for how that could be.

So the next step is to say that the universe in all of its organization, complexity and careful design has always existed -- hence, no act of creation. (Logically this is the fallacy of believing in an effect that has no cause.)

But the universe is entropic and is gradually becoming more disorganized. There is nothing to make us believe that it has a past, eternal history. In fact, to the contrary, everything (red shift, radioactive decay, Big Bang) indicates that it started at a single point in time. One day all the stars will burn out just like one day in the past, they all became energized.

In fact, the idea of an eternal time continuum extending backward forever does not work. Time was created and began at a point. If the time continuum were to run forever into the past, the present would never, ever catch up to where we are now. Today would never happen.

The fact is, God exists and I think you know it and I think it really bothers you.

-- Neo

the default state is nothingness. Nothingness is s...

2007-08-28T05:33:00.000+12:00

the default state is nothingness. Nothingness is simple -- it has no organization. Our universe is complex. Moreover, nothingness will not give rise to something because nothingness has no dynamics or organization or teleology. It is the absence of existence. So the universe was created. Who created it is another question.

Who says the default state is nothingness before the formation of the universe? "so the universe was created"? I thought you said there was nothing, where did the material come from, where did the creator come from if there was just "nothing"?

So, there wasn't "nothing" there was at least a creator and material for the creator to work with.

That "absence of existence" sure took a leap in your mind, didn't it?

Have a religious reformation in Europe. Call it P...

2007-08-28T03:26:00.000+12:00

Have a religious reformation in Europe. Call it Protestant. Notice that you can't have any freedom to practice the religion, so when the opportunity to colonize a new territory becomes available, become one group of the melting pot of people who will colonize and found a new nation. As that nation grows, watch all manner of diverse peoples with diverse belief systems join you.

Now, fast forward the time clock to the twentieth century and listen to a radio preacher explain that this new mongrel nation, now the most powerful in the world, is one of the lost ten tribes of Israel, his theory being based soley on the immigration from England. Determining the particular tribe of the individual, Manasseh or Ephraim, was based soley on whether that individual chose to immigrate or stay home.

Now, watch the radio preacher rant and rave that the new nation is going to be severely punished for forgetting laws which it never knew in the first place (remember, if anything, Protestantism was the guiding force of the founders). The radio preacher never seems to make the connection that if the USA was blessed in the first place, such blessings, if they were to be an effective encouragement from God, would have to have resulted from keeping the tenets of Protestantism. How can a nation forget sabbaths, holy days, and dietary laws which they never knew? How could a loving God bring horrible tribulation on a nation for forsaking laws that they never practiced in the first place?

There are many words which could be used to describe the proponents of British Israelism. Gullible comes to mind. When it comes to theories, BI does not even rise halfway to the stature of the theory of Evolution.

BB

To explain the futility of British Israelism is al...

2007-08-28T00:57:00.000+12:00

To explain the futility of British Israelism is almost as useful as explaining rainbows to earthworms.

Anonymous wrote:....had a total population of just...

2007-08-27T20:53:00.000+12:00

Anonymous wrote:

....had a total population of just 50,000 in the 10th BCE; with Israel at 45,000 and Judah at just 5,000.

........350,000 and the population of Judah was only about 100,000 (page 208).

Kevin Edgecomb over at www.bombaxo.com
has some interesting theories into the population numbers given in the OT for the various tribes.

Kevin noticed the numbers don't quite add up right. It appears they are either inflated by a factor of 10 or perhaps 100 (what's a few powers of ten among friends?).

It seems Israel, surrounded by large and powerful warring countries, did a puffer fish number, and inflated its population counts in its texts to discourage overly ambitious nations from attacking.

Does this mean the bible is a lie? Or does it mean Israel did what it had to, like now, to stay alive? These are the kind of questions Bible inerrancy promoters fail to address.

Its a shame Preachers remove the humanity in the book in an effort to deify it.

Destruction,doom and gloom.,.we are having a red m...

2007-08-27T18:57:00.000+12:00

Destruction,doom and gloom.,.we are having a red moon in NZ in the next day or two.

Repent,drape sackcloth around yourselves you sinners and give your fortune to your favourite COG.

Seamus

Sleeping or gone on a journey.450 ministers need t...

2007-08-27T15:00:00.000+12:00

Sleeping or gone on a journey.

450 ministers need to pray that they can be found. Put the sacrifice on the altar and soak the wood with water. 450 prophets will join you. Tarry 'til we come.

At least one minister gave a sermon in the past week that the United States was being punished with bad weather for their bad behavior as described in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. He was the one who quoted Herbert Armstrong in the Pasture General report.

One has to ask the question, if the United States is Israel, then just at what time has any of the churches of God been a credible witness to the country to persuade the people away from sin? Where are those who the people can believe because their example gives them credibility? Instead of the churches engaging in bad behavior themselves?

Has no one looked at a map of Israel and found that the King of the North would like be an Arab?

Just which church filled with the mentally ill should the American people believe? And why?

Ah, the missing 10 tribes.Perhaps they are all liv...

2007-08-27T14:42:00.000+12:00

Ah, the missing 10 tribes.

Perhaps they are all living in the Himalayas chasing Yeti.Even the name Sher-pa could be Jewish in origin as the word Him-alajah.

Then,maybe they moved to Louisiana where they have the Chevy on the Levi.

Seamus

Just what is the difference?There are those who be...

2007-08-27T14:39:00.000+12:00

Just what is the difference?

There are those who believe that 60 Million years ago, Xenu killed 100 Billion people in volcanoes and that their engrams cloud our thinking until they are audited out. A lot of people believe this and are very certain in their faith.

So just what is so different between the belief in Xenu and British Israelism. Both belief systems rest on the writings of a man and are an outgrowth of fantasy.

In one case, it is unprovable speculative fiction based on unrelated stories in the Bible. In the other case, it is speculative science fiction.

Here is a challenge to Armstrongists: Prove that British Israelism is superior to Scientology to the satisfaction of Scientologists. Go ahead. You will justly earn their contempt.

Here's one more challenge: Cite the fruit of the spirit that British Israelism has nurtured and caused to grow in people.

In the end, concern with physical Israel seems far removed from spiritual Israel. If not one ordinary Israelite of the Old Testament [discounting the prophets and a king or two] never even received the Holy Spirit at any time and in whom there was no faith, of what benefit is it to cling to a thoroughly discredited belief system?

If British Israelism disappeared, would the path to salvation be threatened in any way? What does it have to do with a spiritual life? Even if it were true -- and it is not -- what spiritual benefit does it have, especially considering the divisions, the bad example and the false prophets it has generated?

And while you are at it, prove that the Waldensians don't make liars of Herbert Armstrong and Dr. Hoeh.

Have you not read from the Apostle Paul, "from such turn away"?