Comments on Ambassador Watch: Larry's answer

"Could a "laymember" "set" a minister straight in ...

2008-07-05T04:12:00.000+12:00

"Could a "laymember" "set" a minister straight in any way without fear of retribution?"

Lay-ministry might've had the guts to try. Can't say the members would've. We certainly never did. Hell, we were afraid for our eternal salvation, the one time the lay-ministry threatened disfellowshipment. Never mind the fact that they never would have gotten away with it.

(Although sometimes I wish they had. We might have been deprogrammed a full ten years earlier, if they had.)

"Could a lay-member set a minister straight?"No, b...

2008-07-04T23:37:00.000+12:00

"Could a lay-member set a minister straight?"

No, but the lay-ministry often tried, and made the lives of the members more miserable than the actual ministurds, in some case.

(We had real Gestapo for deacons and elders. Pasadena's response? They sent us the more "laid-back" pastors. Best entertainment to be found anywhere, on a Saturday, was watching the "politics" fly thick and fast!)

"As for setting a perpetrator straight..."Could a ...

2008-07-04T06:10:00.000+12:00

"As for setting a perpetrator straight..."

Could a "laymember" "set" a minister straight in any way without fear of retribution?

Paul Ray

Charlie said, "Methinks this particular anonymous ...

2008-07-03T21:28:00.000+12:00

Charlie said, "Methinks this particular anonymous is, was, or wants to be a minister. The lay people in the old WCG not in any position to '...Set the perpetrator straight.' Even more so if you were a child."

Not so, Charlie. I could never have been a WCG minister. Not cut out for it.

I'm dismayed at the crude treatment of congregants that one reads about on this blog. In my experience this was extremely rare. I remember the kindness and humility of men like Richard Rice and Charles Dorothy. When I was at AC the constant emphasis was on serving, not lording. It was a tall order, obviously too tall sometimes, for young men without much of a senior ministry to emulate.

The child's dilemma can be the most unconscionable; I agree with you there. Apparently those who suffered most were born into church families. I wasn't. But "spare the rod and spoil the child" was American gospel, and I merited my fair share, even without GTA's skewed thesis for guidance. Nonetheless, "Bless the beasts and the children, for in this world they have no voice...".

As for setting a perpetrator straight, there were times when GTA or HWA had to listen to, and heed, justifiably outraged individuals, or else. Other admonitions of the same two people involved entreaty, after prayer and sometimes even fasting. I mention them by way of example.

No one in a country made free by the shedding of blood should have to endure humiliation from a phony cleric who lords it over his flock. Unless the ministry is a sham, men of good intent should always be able to find compelling ways to deal with ministers in sore need of enlightenment.

Sue said... "Steve said... Not to change the subje...

2008-07-03T16:19:00.000+12:00

Sue said...

"Steve said...

Not to change the subject, but has anyone heard about what's going on in UCG? Something is afoot and it happened suddenly. Seems they are moving some "ministers" around the country and are not disclosing why they are doing so to their dumb sheep yet. Have they lost a few hirelings?"

I have heard that there is "warring" going on...This from UCG folks themselves, so don't any of you UCG folks shoot me...not too many details as of yet though...I try to have facts before I write...Sue

Steve/Sue,

About half the people who show up at the UCG appear to be UNREPENTANT and TOTALLY UNCONVERTED. Furthermore, the UCG ministers all think they learned how to play politics really well. You can be sure that there will be serious problems with that bunch. The size might ultimately decrease, but some people will be able to brag about the large number of new COG groups springing up.

Yet another anonymous person lacking empathy said:...

2008-07-03T08:41:00.000+12:00

Yet another anonymous person lacking empathy said: "To hear you say life in the WCG was in some way parallel to WW2's Nazi terror, I wan't to say you're completely wrong -- but perhaps your situation was horrible enough to make you feel that way. I hope not, but we all heard a few horror stories. If you or anyone else experienced that kind of mistreatment, you should have set the perpetrators straight, in no uncertain terms."

Victim on the stand: "I was brutally raped, beaten, robbed, and left for dead by the defendant!"

Defense attorney to victim on the stand: "How were you dressed? Did you tell him to stop?"

Methinks this particular anonymous is, was, or wants to be a minister. The lay people in the old WCG not in any position to "...Set the perpetrator straight." Even more so if you were a child.

Hear hear!

2008-07-03T04:39:00.000+12:00

Hear hear!

"May the rest of your life be abundantly and forev...

2008-07-03T03:42:00.000+12:00

"May the rest of your life be abundantly and forever blessed, far beyond your most cherished dreams."

Thank you for the kind words and rest assured that what you wish has already occurred- it began the day I stopped believing in imaginary beings.

Paul Ray

Great -- so we have a Gestapo apologist, UCG's ex-...

2008-07-03T02:44:00.000+12:00

Great -- so we have a Gestapo apologist, UCG's ex-members reporting the business-as-usual unrest that UCG is always fomenting, frothing at the mouth over, or generally "enduring" (and have been, since their split), and finally, yet another tired altar call for the CoGMeMeMeMeMeMe splinter.

Have we covered all the bases now?

'...have you an acceptable solution to D&R?...'Wha...

2008-07-03T00:52:00.000+12:00

'...have you an acceptable solution to D&R?...'

What do you think of the article Divorce - is it for Christians? at www.cgom.org in the ARTICLES section.

Constructive critique, please

Bamboo, you're putting words into my mouth. Even ...

2008-07-02T19:09:00.000+12:00

Bamboo, you're putting words into my mouth. Even Jesus had a highly questionable explanation of D&R, drawing his teaching from the ideal of Eden. Eden was long past when he said "from the beginning it was not so." The way it was in the beginning was an ideal that evaporated along with animals that ate straw like oxen and people who could live unclothed without shame. His kingdom, and that teaching, very definitely were not of the world in which he lived, nor ours.

With all your wisdom, have you an acceptable solution to D&R?

Anonymous wrote: ❝On the dark side, D&R was...

2008-07-02T16:42:00.000+12:00

Anonymous wrote:

❝On the dark side, D&R was an horrible disgrace, and is probably to this day wrongly explained. No argument there. Yet we weren't alone with bad teachings about marriage and child-rearing. That doesn't excuse us, but it does display the capacity of religious groups to err in matters of great importance.❞

Only a WCG apologist would try to get away with bragging ❝Hey, we're not half as bad as we used to be!❞

Paul Ray said, "What does this (the outstanding re...

2008-07-02T13:00:00.000+12:00

Paul Ray said, "What does this (the outstanding record of some AC students) have to do with the plight of the laymember? For an apologist, you have to do better than this."

First of all, I'm not an apologist. I'm simply telling you how it was at AC, and in the church as a lay member. I fail to see how respect for the 10 commandments and living a moral, ethical life could have been harmful. Misapplied, it might have been awful, but as intended, they're a fine summary of good living.

You said the good reputation of AC/WCG in Pasadena was "like saying the local townspeople held the SS guards in high esteem because they held themselves high and dressed neatly."

Not so. Pasadena residents were free Americans with no reason to feel pressured to flatter the WCG or its AC. We merited our good reputation. It had no relationship to the terror behind frightened Germans sucking up to SS guards.

I remember a Hollywood studio exec telling me, when I asked to borrow an irreplaceable, one-of-a-kind item. "You're from Ambassador College? OK. I know your reputation. Here you are. We know you'll bring it back."

Personally speaking, I lived it for 40+ years, sometimes well, other times poorly. My experience was full of the best and worst of times. I knew everyone, and reaped both good and bad down through the years. We all went through similar experiences, as do most people in the free world. I'm still convinced that the good outweighed the bad, and still strive to live many of the ways learned at AC.

When you single out AC and the WCG for your most disparaging words, I feel your vision is unfairly narrow. The vast throngs who attended the Feast of Tabernacles were having the time of their lives. They didn't come of their own free will to embrace excrement or experience the cultic equivalent of the holocaust. It might have been true of a few misguided souls, but they make life miserable wherever they go.

On the dark side, D&R was an horrible disgrace, and is probably to this day wrongly explained. No argument there. Yet we weren't alone with bad teachings about marriage and child-rearing. That doesn't excuse us, but it does display the capacity of religious groups to err in matters of great importance.

Making the healing doctrine a test of faith was unconscionable -- but I personally experienced miraculous healings, as did thousands of others. There was and still is a measure of validity in that teaching. If you disagree, please know there is precedent for what we taught, however improperly. Check out James 5:14 in Adam Clarke, at least for starters.

3 tithes were Biblical, but wrongly explained. Nonetheless, they did and still do have merit, when applied with understanding. The main problem is that most of Israel no longer lives in the land and tithing is a holy-land-based agricultural policy, created to support a functioning Levitical priesthood during Temple times. Some people, both Christians and Jews, extrapolate tithing on income from the Israelite policy, and it helps them to be part of something bigger than themselves.

To hear you say life in the WCG was in some way parallel to WW2's Nazi terror, I wan't to say you're completely wrong -- but perhaps your situation was horrible enough to make you feel that way. I hope not, but we all heard a few horror stories. If you or anyone else experienced that kind of mistreatment, you should have set the perpetrators straight, in no uncertain terms.

To leave that kind of thing unchallenged doesn't derive from healthy awe/fear of God, but from wrongly attributing Godly approval to men of despicable ways, ordained or not -- no matter who tells you otherwise. The N. Kingdom had every right to abandon Rehoboam when he got too big for David's throne.

Paul Ray, if your life were made miserable through its connection to the WCG, I'm personally very, very sorry. It was not that way for everyone, including me. Perhaps in your personal situation it was. If so, then I sincerely hope you will stay confident in your outrage, that it is just and warranted. But dwelling on it will perpetuate your pain, letting the bad guys win. Please allow that they weren't all bad.

May God bountifully lead you through it all, to a life in every way the opposite of what you experienced earlier at the hand of imposters. May the rest of your life be abundantly and forever blessed, far beyond your most cherished dreams.

"Steve said... Not to change the subject, but has ...

2008-07-02T05:46:00.000+12:00

"Steve said...
Not to change the subject, but has anyone heard about what's going on in UCG? Something is afoot and it happened suddenly. Seems they are moving some "ministers" around the country and are not disclosing why they are doing so to their dumb sheep yet. Have they lost a few hirelings?"

I have heard that there is "warring" going on...This from UCG folks themselves, so don't any of you UCG folks shoot me...not too many details as of yet though...I try to have facts before I write...Sue

I did not "watch people swallow excrement for year...

2008-07-02T02:31:00.000+12:00

I did not "watch people swallow excrement for years." Most of the people I know who graduated AC...At AC the focal point of our lives was Biblical, wrapped in prayer."

Ah. That explains alot. I suppose being trained at West Point, whether you continued on to God's Officer Corp or not, could allow for some mental whitewashing.

"Good stuff was being learned by a lot of exemplary students. And some of it was not much good at all. But when students transferred to other colleges, they generally placed among the finest on those campuses."

And? What does this have to do with the plight of the laymember? For an apologist, you have to do better than this.

"The opinion of people in Pasadena regarding AC and WCG people was very high. That was the reality and it cannot be denied."

Once again, so what? This is like saying the local townspeople held the SS guards in high esteem because the held themselves high and dressed neatly. Who cares?

"This isn't to whitewash error or the disgusting conduct of some."

But it clearly whitewashes the collective conduct of all. Which is disgusting.

"But a large number of the people I knew at AC and in the church was seriously applying the Bible in daily life, and it served us well."

That's really swell. Meanwhile, back in reality, the WWCG was an abusive cult. You can read countless testimonies by former members. The actions of the cult are public knowledge.

"...but that's no way to make a just appraisal of an enterprise."

Actually, it is through AW and many other websites, books, magazine and newspapers articles, newsletters, and personal correspondence (wallowing in the sewers to you) that we find the whole sordid history of the WWCG, from which other people can make a
"just appraisal" of the WWCG.

Paul Ray

Anonymous said, "Herbert Armstrong was a man of fo...

2008-07-02T00:45:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said, "Herbert Armstrong was a man of formidable accomplishment".

MY COMMENT - Oh really?

Yes, I remember the story he use to tell of a business associate who use to say (according to Armstrong), "Mr. Armstrong is no ordinary man".

The reality is Herbert Armstrong was a con man who always wanted to be important, successful and always wanted to be wealthy. Notwithstanding his claims, the truth is Armstrong stumbled on the religion busness when he was hustling aluminum siding earlier in the Great Depression. Armstrong sold siding to an Adventist minister and was very impressed by the fact that the Adventist minister had money. He came home and announced to Loma that he had found the new family business.

Herbert Armstrong started the Radio Church of God with money as his motivation. By the time my family came into contact in the 1950s and 1960s, Armstrongs End Time fear religion business had taken off.

As a young teen in the Church in the 1960s, I remember what I heard and the prophecy statements made by the Armstrongs, the leading evangelists and the ministers. Herbert Armstrong built his fear religion business out of greed, and it came across with ever communication Armstrong made for money - usually under threat of eternal damnation.

Armstrong was constantly badgering the dumb sheep (who had very little to begin with) for more money.

As I have said before, Herbert Armstong dined with the classes because he LIED to the masses. As a teenager growing up in the Church in te 1960s, I never dreamed I would some day grow up and have a full lifetime to live. It was never preached in the WCG that life could go on. The message was always the same - time is short and send more money to HQ.

So, I guess if you admire a con man, then yes, HWA was a man of formidable accomplishment. I guess the same could be said of Ken Lay of Enron, or the WorldCom white collar crooks that are now in jail.

Richard

Paul Ray, I did not refer to Herbert Armstrong as ...

2008-07-01T23:05:00.000+12:00

Paul Ray, I did not refer to Herbert Armstrong as a great man. I merely made reference to little people cutting greater ones, meaning those of greater accomplishment, down to their own size. No apologies. Herbert Armstrong was a man of formidable accomplishment.

I did not "watch people swallow excrement for years." Most of the people I know who graduated AC or devoted their lives to what they believed at the time was a Godly work consider their experiences profitable, and by no means a matter of swallowing excrement. We all know about the surly side of things there, and it's not a preoccupation of anyone I know.

At AC the focal point of our lives was Biblical, wrapped in prayer. Good stuff was being learned by a lot of exemplary students. And some of it was not much good at all. But when students transferred to other colleges, they generally placed among the finest on those campuses. The opinion of people in Pasadena regarding AC and WCG people was very high. That was the reality and it cannot be denied.

This isn't to whitewash error or the disgusting conduct of some. But a large number of the people I knew at AC and in the church was seriously applying the Bible in daily life, and it served us well.

Anyone who chooses to wallow in the sewers of AC/WCG -- or any other corporate group -- will find plenty of offal and excrement, but that's no way to make a just appraisal of an enterprise.

"Folks seem happiest when they're criticizing ever...

2008-07-01T06:12:00.000+12:00

"Folks seem happiest when they're criticizing everything that happened at the hand of Herbert Armstrong. Little people cutting the accomplishments of a greater one down to their own size.Of course he made mistakes. Some of them were reprehensible."

And I have no doubt that you extend the same glowing courtesy to other luminaries such as Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, David Koresh, Joseph Smith, ect. Right? Right?

Like any other WWCG Apologist, you're reprehensible. Plain and simple. You watched people (perhaps even had it dished out to yourself) swallow excrement for years and here you are, giving some good fatherly chastisement, telling the survivors that it wasn't all that bad. Just when I lose interest in the history of the WWCG someone like you sticks up out of the mud (like an Nazi apologists or a Holocaust denier) and I am suddenly reminded why it is very important to keep the rotted corpse of Herbert Armstrong up on display for all to see. Beware, Ye Who Enters!

P.S. By what criteria do you us to state that Herbert Armstrong was a great man?

Paul Ray

Connected in a round about sort of way, I found th...

2008-07-01T05:58:00.000+12:00

Connected in a round about sort of way, I found this article of interest at the ICSA site: http://icsahome.com/infoserv_articles/bussell_harold_whyevangelicalsvulnerable.htm

While he has a slant towards Christianity (meant as a peacable caveat for those among us who are non believers) I did find a number of his points rather interesting. Especially in regards to confusion over unity vs. uniformity given all those rants about "unity" we listened to.

larry: //- Wow!! I think someone here owes me an a...

2008-07-01T01:23:00.000+12:00

larry: //- Wow!! I think someone here owes me an apology. -//

Steve: //- MY COMMENT: Why?? No one else gets one. -//

Not quite true. Dennis and Douglas publicly apologized to each other several months ago for... for...

Oh, now what was that spat about, again?

There wasn't anything wrong with being a Laodicean...

2008-06-30T16:23:00.000+12:00

There wasn't anything wrong with being a Laodicean back when Laodicea was a thriving town. Nor was there anything wrong with being a Pharisee. I have two books entitled, "Jesus the Pharisee," written by two competent authors who make strong cases for their title. It's wearying to watch people knocking words around like shuttlecocks and alas, not comprehending the terms they're so eloquently misusing.

Pharisees, for the most part, were the best part of the heart and core of Judaism when Jesus lived. He wasn't a megaphone-wielding wannabe preacher following the parade, barking at them from the outside in. He was always inside the disputes he had with his fellow Jews. Good grief, he was Jewish, you know?!! That's what Jews do!

Had he lived in Laodicea, he would have been Jesus, the Laodicean Pharisee, and among the best of the citizens of the town. As it was, he was from a crummy town called Nazareth, nowhere near as reputable as Laodicea. "Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth?"

Oh well, little of consequence gets serious attention here. Folks seem happiest when they're criticizing everything that happened at the hand of Herbert Armstrong. Little people cutting the accomplishments of a greater one down to their own size.

Of course he made mistakes. Some of them were reprehensible. He was in a position where his decisions made big differences in people's lives. Tell me about it! Would God that all MY decisions, and my conduct, had always been perfect!

Is it possible to get through life without having a rug or two jerked out from under? Is it possible to be part of a "religious" group without encountering scoundrels? How about Israel, God's personal choice for a Kingdom of Priests, a holy people? Were they all gentle sweetiepoops, sipping Perrier and practicing perfection day in and day out?

When I hear people upbraiding the downside of Armstrong's WCG, I like to think of Rahab, the whore who lied to save Israelite spies who showed up at her brothel while reconnoitering Jerico. When the walls came tumbling down, all that was left of them was Rahab's whorehouse -- and the madame herself found her way into David's and Jesus' genealogies. Not bad for a crafty whore, I'd say. She knew, from the johns who frequented her business, that Israel was a juggernaut, an irresistible force that could not be defeated. She quickly moved to Israel's side, knowing full well what side of the bread her butter was on. For her reward, no less than God honored her savvy. Try cutting that one down.

Have you never read that Joseph, after being sold into slavery by his own family, only found good in their crude actions -- saw the hand of God in what they had done to him. And after he had examined their motives anew, he forgave them, weeping upon them all, and providing handsomely for them for the rest of their lives.

I still have a copy of the little booklet, Seven Laws of Success, written on a highway somewhere in France, while Richard Armstrong drove too fast through the countryside. It's a helluva little book, worth its weight in platinum. I still have friends I met at AC, and a wife who was introduced to me by an AC roommate who, O horrors!, occasionally stole my beer.

I'm not in any of the WCG churches at this point. I can't be. Their purpose in my life has passed, but it was an invaluable experience. By some extraordinary grace I was spared the grief of D&R, and for that I'm very grateful. But life for anyone immersed in a religious or similar group will have parallels with those in other groups, whether Baptist, Orthodox, Catholic, Episcopal, SDA, JW, Jewish or Buddhist, you name it. They've all got their princes, and their rats.

Eventually we all move on, gather the goods, cut the losses and spoil the grandkids if we're so lucky. And we've all got heads full of Biblical passages which, if re-examined and studied with greater wisdom, should provide immense pleasure for the rest of our lives. There's very little to be gained through wallowing in the mud of past mistakes.

I am delighted to be able to provide you guys such...

2008-06-30T15:15:00.000+12:00

I am delighted to be able to provide you guys such entertainment.

And yes, Steve, I am a saint.

And Gavin, I didn't actually answer the question I originally posed.

"Come on Larry, get a grip! You know the ultimate ...

2008-06-30T14:30:00.000+12:00

"Come on Larry, get a grip! You know the ultimate insult in WCG circles is to call someone Laodicean!"

I always thought that calling someone Pharisaical was just as bad.

I'm surprised that no one has called Larry Pharisaical yet. Surely this is just an oversight.

Tom said, "Is that a religious location, or a plac...

2008-06-30T13:41:00.000+12:00

Tom said, "Is that a religious location, or a place of infamy? A visit to Bethesda might do you the world of good."

MY COMMENT - Cute, Tom. I suppose you have been to Washington, D.C. and know Bethesda is a suburb. No, I cannot visit Bethesda Naval Hospital.

By the way, I am not the Richard who made the last post about you being a Dick.

Richard

2008-06-30T13:12:00.000+12:00

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