Comments on Ambassador Watch: Confronting the Rumors about Incest (Final Part)

I am just sourcing the first book I come across at...

2016-05-24T22:17:32.348+12:00

I am just sourcing the first book I come across at the internet so I am not a scholar at all.

The book contains some more gems, I see.

Some scholars argue that the Romans were cultural relativists, willing to let each conquered nation practice its own bizarre traditions as long as they received the appropriate amount of taxes.

Napthali Lewis describes “theusual pattern of Roman provincial government” in Egypt as “based on a policy of easytoleration of local custom where it posed no threat to or offered no interference with thesuperimposed Roman administrative apparatus.” He asserts that the Roman mission wassimply “to ensure internal tranquility and to deter attack from without.”

In this theory, Roman laws were only for Roman citizens, negating any need to enforce the incest litigation against non-citizen Egyptians. However, contemporary Roman administrators went to significant lengths to root out the local Gallic and Britannic religious customs of human sacrifice of slaves; they also interfered in variousother private social customs, especially religious ones like the practice of Judaism and Christianity.

Especially the practice of human sacrifice was abhorrent to Roman Culture. Perhaps therefore the difficult entry of Christianity in that culture.

So in some cases there seemed to be more of a taboo on Christianity.........

Another quote from this particular book I just came across.

Why then are the Gauls and their peculiar institutions treated one way and the Egyptians another? The Egyptians, in the Roman literary conception (which did notconsistently distinguish between local and immigrant populations) were a deeply strangeand perverse society; they were also an ancient and well-respected nation, one of the cradles of civilization. The Gauls, in contrast, were viewed as uncouth barbarians with little to teach the proud Romans. While the Romans undoubtedly held Egyptian incest indisdain, there was nonetheless respect for Pharaonic Egypt’s history and culture. On aneconomic level, Egypt’s enormous tax revenues and wheat surpluses were key to thefunctioning of the Empire. Gaul and Britannia were barely profitable.

(I am somewhat reminded of the text, lukewarm and increased with goods")

nck

2016-05-24T22:09:15.667+12:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

BB Please, I am not an advocate of this. I am not...

2016-05-24T22:00:28.458+12:00

BB

Please, I am not an advocate of this.
I am not talking about the current understanding on the subject.
Although the Romans weren't in favor of it at all.

http://www.academia.edu/205164/Incest_Laws_and_Absent_Taboos_in_Roman_Egypt

There are levels that can be distinghuished but fall under the definition.
-different levels of kinship (cousins 2nd, 3rd degree even practiced in our society a hundred years ago)
-The particular disussion I had with mr Jones. Probably no blood relation at all. Only a legal relationship between the culprits. (therefore the use of somewhat, perhaps those roman church members would have laughed at the whole affair, knowing the ins and outs of that father marrying a 27 year old bride, younger than his son, who committed the "incest" with his (legal) "stepmother" .

It was my point that Paul was aghast at the lukewarmnness of the reaction of the greco roman church members, increased with goods because their trade with Egypt?. Just putting a different perspective on the bible versus than the 18th century protestant perspective.

Therefore the use of "somewhat". Not because of any endorsement of the practice.

We could have another discussion on the word "child".

Wasn't Mary supposed to have been 16 year of age or so. (The same age as empress Sissi of Austria?)

Again it is my firm scientific evidenced believe that the brain is evolving until the 25th year. However time, culture and circumstance have defined what constituted social relationships in the past.

I can imagine a world where people die in the droves being 36 years of age. A 15 year old person would be advanced in age in that society. (although not as defined by biological factors.

nck

Sweet mother of crap, nck! "Somewhat" o...

2016-05-24T19:42:45.956+12:00

Sweet mother of crap, nck! "Somewhat" of a taboo???

BB

But I do understand the difficulty in interpretati...

2016-05-23T05:34:55.070+12:00

But I do understand the difficulty in interpretation.

In a thousand years scholars will be discussing:

The people that wandered through the desert to found their own state. They murdered anyone they encountered especially those with differing opinions and religion.
Following that spree was the Exodus from ......Syria......

nck

What I mean is, You are right incest is somewhat o...

2016-05-23T05:17:37.839+12:00

What I mean is, You are right incest is somewhat of a taboo.
My point is the interpretations of the (protestant) scholars who read a message in Paul's letter that is completely not there because they lack an understanding of the (cultural) context in which things are said.

This side discussion originated by the "interpretation" that Paul acted on hearsay. My point is that he either had or had not reliable witnesses OR he was a fraud as dangerous as anyone acting on hearsay. Then I started musing on Roman law for the sake of an interesting discussion.

nck

It seems the bible scholars don't know their R...

2016-05-23T05:07:37.938+12:00

It seems the bible scholars don't know their Roman Law from their stepmother as do some of the pundits here!

nck

nck, as you acknowledge in your remarks, most Bibl...

2016-05-23T04:48:00.328+12:00

nck, as you acknowledge in your remarks, most Bible commentaries label this incident as incest. That doesn't necessarily mean you're wrong, but it does make it more probable. After all, we're talking about the scholars! Also, as a student of history, virtually everything I've read on the subject of Roman law and sexual standards indicated that incest was regarded as prohibited behavior. Yes, the emperors and Ptolemaic pharaohs engaged in the practice, but we all know that most of them regarded themselves as above the laws and social standards of the societies they ruled. It is an indisputable fact that the vast majority of all of the cultures that have existed down through the centuries have regarded incest as taboo.

Strange no scholar has come up to correct me. Perh...

2016-05-22T23:02:57.115+12:00

Strange no scholar has come up to correct me. Perhaps the subject is not important.

I have changed my mind.

A man was sleeping with his father's wife.

-In Roman Law a woman even his first wife was regarded property of the Patres.
-The Romans however were very big in ADOPTION. Jesus is literally speaking Roman Law when he speaks that we can be "adopted" as sons, etc etc thereby calling him abba father. etc etc
A man could inherit the family name and be a son like a blood son. Most emperors inherited a family name by adoption. For instance Julius (GAIUS) ceasar.

So the problem would be the betrayal of a father by a adopted son.
While all the bible commentaries use the word incest. (I am not sure about that.)

Again. This betrayal of a father by an adopted son would strike at the heart of Paul's message. That Christians could become sons of God.
The lukewarmness by which these Roman citizens took this to the local court instead of looking at it from the Christian perspective would strike at the heart of Paul's existence.

So there you have my new take on this story.
No incest. But a story of betrayal of the (holy) father by the christians.
Could please someone with a degree in Roman law comment on my assertions if they feel it adds anything to the common good?

nck

Josephus professed a high degree of admiration for...

2016-05-22T10:24:26.526+12:00

Josephus professed a high degree of admiration for the organization of, the discipline, and the military prowess of the Roman soldiers. As a Jew, he was also a Romanophile. The emperors most likely had no idea that the writings of Josephus were derivative of Torah.

BB

I like BB's comment on Josephus. It seems the ...

2016-05-22T09:32:44.021+12:00

I like BB's comment on Josephus.
It seems the Empire of Japan also acknowledged the wisdom and knowledge in the oracles of the ancient people of the jews. They seemed to have wanted to learn more about this ancient culture. Especially after they had humiliated themselves into oblivion and an obvious emissary from this ancient people talked about a plan from their God who seemed to be intent on world domination through Kamikaze (devine wind) or Ruach. First archeological artifacts and cultural and legal knowledge was exchanged. Later high technology know how.

nck

I am really not qualified to discuss the bible. Es...

2016-05-22T09:03:22.763+12:00

I am really not qualified to discuss the bible.
Especially not with the blog owner having degrees and all. I make a fool of myself attempting to interpret.

I like wide ranging conversations though.

I am confused as to whether the "higher standard" should be applied "because of the community" and the stricter judgment because of the "people" OR because they are the standards of God.

You didn't want to quible on the "incest" in the passage.
It is an important point though.

The "son" and "mother" might just have been the same age.
The female in Roman Law was the property of the father.

True incest however was a very Imperial thing to do. Also the Egyptians married their sisters.

To the dismay of Paul these Roman citizen Church members take this case of "theft" to the local court. A much lower standard is applied than the standard of God that Paul would like to have applied in the Church.

Then Paul says. I am not with you present, but I am qualified to judge this matter from a distance. It was (made) clear to him that the Church would take moral judgement from the worldy courts, while they should have applied the moral code of the statutes of God.

The worldly courts don't pass moral judgment they just function to uphold peace and order in society by upholding the implicit agreements of society as a whole.

From my interest in Roman Law you can safely assume that, although I very much understand the Anglo Saxon jury system I am not convinced a jury produces better results than a judge trained in the Roman system weighing the facts that are presented.

So I am not taking your comment on being self - righteous personal. It is perhaps a philosophical difference in the application of who is to judge on what evidence presented. There are different systems. One, at worst, may come across as self righteous, the other as a local lynch party by the mob. I am willing to acknowledge that untrained people may be sincerely wrong. (As I stated at the beginning of this posting.)

nck

2016-05-22T05:26:34.311+12:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

nck, if we (you and I) confined ourselves to talki...

2016-05-22T05:25:36.130+12:00

nck, if we (you and I) confined ourselves to talking about things which others might objectively chararacterize us as being expert about, these conversations probably wouldn't be as interesting or wide-ranging. As for the question of the passage used from Corinthians, although I am often critical of the editorial decisions that have us our present chapter and verse designations, I'm not convinced that they aren't appropriate here. It seems to me that Paul introduced Roman law as a transitional element between two different issues going on within the congregation. I will not quibble over whether or not sleeping with one's stepmother should be considered incest. Whether or not some of the folks who shared this story with Paul were servants in the household is pure speculation. However, I do agree with you that Paul would have been very careful about such allegations. If you could see your way to acknowledging that those of us who have reached a different conclusion about the evidence against HWA could also be careful, I would be willing to say that you're not self-righteous.

Factors to consider: 1) Roman officials appear t...

2016-05-22T05:22:07.860+12:00

Factors to consider:

1) Roman officials appear to have resisted, and attempted to avoid crucifying Jesus. They were manipulated by the Jews. This could not have been lost on Paul.

2) Paul believed that it was part of his calling to give powerful witness and testimony, and saw and used an opportunity to gain access even to Caesar himself.

Jewish law had a long and storied history that actually predated both Helenism and Roman law. The works of Josephus were written for Caesar's benefit, to familiarize him with the long term history of the Jewish people. This was one of Josephus's stated purposes in writing his opus.

BB

Now, yes many of the household staff could have wi...

2016-05-22T02:31:31.654+12:00

Now, yes many of the household staff could have witnessed the act. As a matter of fact Christians were the household staff probably, since it is the religion of the poor and opressed. It only became High Class after emperor Justinian made the religion fashionable.

So NO I don't think Paul heard this through any kind of HEARSAY as defined by a modern encyclopedia. He might just have heard this case through a very trusted source, which is not Hearsay, who might even have been one of the staff/slaves in the household.

As you can see I am painting a picture here in broad strokes. A professor in Roman Law, or a Scholar in Jewish Law or one more knowledgeable than I am on the apostle Paul might comment quite different from myself.

However I am showing you a different perspective so that yoru contemplations are energized again so that they may come to a new or better conclusion.

Law is a difficult subject. One should take it into context.
Perhaps Paul was a self conceited person acting on hearsay. Perhaps he was skilled in the Law of Roman empire and the proceedings of the Jewish faith.

As a former prosecutor, who had been through a massive personal transformation regarding his tragic past, I do not feel Paul was someone who would be judging lightly on a matter that seemed to affect the church, because he had heard some rumors through the grapevine.

And yes everyone is held to the same standard, although they might be punished differently because of their different make-up/level of knowledge/skills etc. But all fall short. I might just appoint you right now as a magistrate at one of the most important courts in the Roman empire. You will be held against the same standard as anyone else. But I might just be the one who gets punished by such appointment.

nck

0031 was message 2 I am reposting message 1 withou...

2016-05-22T02:31:01.831+12:00

0031 was message 2 I am reposting message 1 without the wikipedia link since it gets deleted.

nck

Miller Jones,

You are an interesting person and commenter.

However you ask to many questions in which you are not an expert.

Let me first state here that I am not an expert AT ALL although I did pass one Roman Law exam. I will therefore only make observations.

Paul was quick to invoke standard Roman Law when it involved his own punishment.
So he either was totally self-righteous OR he knew something on the standards of Roman Law.

Now first of all you PRESUME incest.
Again not an expert just a quick glancer, I read "fornication" in this case a guy sleeping with his fathers wife. SHE WAS probably not his BLOOD MOTHER. The guy was old enough and women did not live into their thirties at that time. So his real mother was probably dead.

In Roman Law this was not about IMMORALITY. This case was about THEFT of his fathers PROPERTY.

wikipedia entry link about legis actionis

The legis actiones states that the BURDEN OF PROOF lay with the PLAINTIFF.
(the father probably)

I was talking about context. So I figured I should...

2016-05-22T00:31:17.784+12:00

I was talking about context.
So I figured I should read the next verses too.

I read
"
Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church?"

Now I am very sure the Legis Actionis was applied.
Since it states that people could appoint there own judges, who would than rule.

NOW it seems Paul has heard the case not only through a trusted source. This case had been through legal court. EXACTLY as I require in all of my postings on this matter.

Paul was thus very sure, this case of THEFT had happened. Although he judges it as a case of FORNICATION.

Therefore Paul scorns those who have taken this issue to a CIVIL COURT, instead of taking this to their brethren and have an in-house judgement.

I trust the Romans more. They were better in building edifices, law and fighting than the Greeks.

nck

http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/05/w...

2016-05-21T23:41:30.673+12:00

http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2016/05/will-god-judge-everyone-by-same-standard.html?m=1

Why limit to one aspect? I mean obviously one huma...

2016-05-21T09:40:29.362+12:00

Why limit to one aspect? I mean obviously one human function would be that of a center of perception, and yes, we do interface with other centers of perception. There is evidence that plants also do this. Evolution is a synergistic process. But, we are much more than this. Jeez, I hope nobody thinks to reduce us to the status of fertilizer factory!

BB

nck, you are mistaken.

2016-05-21T09:31:17.239+12:00

nck, you are mistaken.

Skeptic, You are a datacluster, interconnected th...

2016-05-21T04:41:44.730+12:00

Skeptic,

You are a datacluster, interconnected through a global network.
And I have the data to convincingly evidence that.

nck

I'm skeptical on most matters. I don't be...

2016-05-20T09:46:53.295+12:00

I'm skeptical on most matters. I don't believe anything without convincing evidence. But guess what? I believe we're human.

jeez. BB

2016-05-20T02:10:50.889+12:00

jeez.

BB

BB, RP didn't intend this. I provided the fou...

2016-05-19T19:27:08.814+12:00

BB,

RP didn't intend this. I provided the foundation. It is not a set up.

Since we have been interacting for some time now we tend to become a swarm.
https://www.ted.com/talks/steven_strogatz_on_sync/transcript?language=en

Or for those who believe we are human. We might be converging knowledge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_intelligence

nck