Comments on Ambassador Watch: STP

Weekly update from Joseph TkachApril 2, 2008Dear B...

2008-04-21T11:00:00.000+12:00

Weekly update from Joseph Tkach
April 2, 2008

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

The Ambassador College board of directors, in consultation with the WCG board and the WCG Advisory Council of Elders, has voted to change the business name of our U.S. online graduate degree program from Ambassador College of Christian Ministry to Grace Communion Seminary (www.gcs.ambassador.edu). The name Grace Communion Seminary was adopted as an apt description of the theological content and level of our online graduate program. As a result of this decision, Ambassador College will now be doing business as Grace Communion Seminary.

Many of the people who stayed in WW until the last...

2008-03-15T10:51:00.000+13:00

Many of the people who stayed in WW until the last waltz (90`s the decade not their age !!) think the STP was spewed from the devil, they think it means sunday worship and xmas when it was NOTHING like that.

I Have a copy of it at home and it is more Biblically based than many of the ripoffs of what HWA wrote a million years ago, that just bore brethren to tears with Israel tribes and how wonderful HwA was.
Let HWA rest in peace.
Why oh why do sooooooooo many of the brethren continue to live in the 1970`s ?????? It `s soooo boring. I should know im in United !!!!!!!!!their everywhere !!!!!

I was an AC student at the time, and I helped coll...

2008-03-06T16:25:00.000+13:00

I was an AC student at the time, and I helped collate and put the STP books together. I think we might have been paid for our time.

Tom Mahon said... The word allegory is not a syno...

2008-03-06T06:23:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon said...

The word allegory is not a synonym of the word fable. The Oxford English Dictionary of synonyms or their web site will explain.

allegory:
—Synonyms 2. fable, parable.
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

And don't forget (regardless of whether or not you...

2008-03-06T02:14:00.000+13:00

And don't forget (regardless of whether or not you subscribe to what conservative Catholic Jared Olar likes to call "the conspiracy theory of Constantine"), the canonical bible used in 95% of the christian religion between the 1600s and the last twenty years or so, was based on an Anglican-biased translation of a Roman(catholic)-biased translation of a small portion of the books that were actually in practical use, in the "christian" churches of the day, pre-Nicene Council.

Whoa. Does that mean the Nicene Council was the first STP?

I think I just broke my brain......

'TS: For all the "difficult sayings" of Paul, he n...

2008-03-05T22:14:00.000+13:00

'TS: For all the "difficult sayings" of Paul, he nowhere seems to have mentioned the millennium thousand year period'

There was on-going revelation as long as the original apostles were alive. Paul may have given an outline when he wrote:

1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Corky said...>>>If the story of Abraham and his tw...

2008-03-05T21:50:00.000+13:00

Corky said...

>>>If the story of Abraham and his two sons are an allegory, then all of Genesis is an allegory and an allegory is only another word for fable.<<<

The word allegory is not a synonym of the word fable. The Oxford English Dictionary of synonyms or their web site will explain.

An allegory may be fictional or it may be a true story. You may choose to believe that Abraham never existed, but don't put words in the mouth of Paul by your faulty reasoning.

nelson said...>>>Every word that ever came out of ...

2008-03-05T21:01:00.000+13:00

nelson said...

>>>Every word that ever came out of the mouth of herbert Armstrong was a lie.<<<

"Every word?" This is the kind of comment that betrays a bitter and twisted mindset.

Speaking of herbal wonders, I read somewhere that ...

2008-03-05T19:40:00.000+13:00

Speaking of herbal wonders, I read somewhere that one of the substances in frankincense and myrrh was cannabis.

I don't know if it cured anything, but maybe after you rubbed it on you really didn't care?

OK, Nelson, but really...anybody who has to tell m...

2008-03-05T16:41:00.000+13:00

OK, Nelson, but really...anybody who has to tell me how many days he fasted can bite me, you know?

"Way to go Deity!"Dennis, I do hope your cheerlead...

2008-03-05T16:15:00.000+13:00

"Way to go Deity!"

Dennis, I do hope your cheerleader outfit conforms to proper skirt length guidelines.

I can't help but remember an "unconverted mate" that used to come to church sometimes with her husband.
She liked to wear tight sweaters, and there was lots of um... stimulating conversation about it.
Thankfully, there shall be no provocative tight sweater wearin' in the World Tomorrow.
Go Deity!

Moses was High on Drugs-Israeli ResearcherWow, I w...

2008-03-05T15:51:00.000+13:00

Moses was High on Drugs-Israeli Researcher

Wow, I was reading the comments there, and it sure got some people pissed off!

For those who believe that God created hallucinogenic/psychotropic plants, I wonder what they think the purpose(s) are for such plants.

Such plants have been a part of religious rites throughout known history.

"One would think that the Apostle Paul would under...

2008-03-05T14:15:00.000+13:00

"One would think that the Apostle Paul would understand everything about mapping the Holydays to "the Plan of God" because he claimed he was personally taught by Christ...In all of this, the Apostles never seemed to get beyond Jesus, repentance, baptisms and faith in the sense of the Passover, putting out of sin pictured by the Days of Unleavened Bread. Whether they went beyond to recognize Pentecost as being part of "the Plan" is not clear."

Yes, it's a mystery as to why the Apostles didn't understand the Plan of God as Seen in His Holy Days....because said Plan doesn't exist outside of Armstrongism.

Paul

Nelson,Excellent post, just excellent! On another ...

2008-03-05T13:48:00.000+13:00

Nelson,

Excellent post, just excellent!

On another note, I wish Tom would share some of the horrors he has been part of.

"Complicated by the fact that Old Testament Law di...

2008-03-05T13:46:00.000+13:00

"Complicated by the fact that Old Testament Law dictates that if someone is divorced it is a terrible thing to go back and remarry the same person."

But also teaches a woman has to marry her rapist. "

If a man [meets] a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her ... He must marry the girl ... He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
-- Deuteronomy 22:28-29 (NIV)

Way to go Deity!

If we could ever meet the original Apostle types o...

2008-03-05T13:38:00.000+13:00

If we could ever meet the original Apostle types or later "early church fathers", we'd probably think they were weird, whacky and nuts..

After considering the issues for awhile and contem...

2008-03-05T13:33:00.000+13:00

After considering the issues for awhile and contemplating the ambiance of the New Testament disciples and the Apostles in the First Century, it is easy to conclude that even the "Apostles" were not as advanced as many people think them to be.

One would think that the Apostle Paul would understand everything about mapping the Holydays to "the Plan of God" because he claimed he was personally taught by Christ in Arabian desert in sort of a private tutoring where saw things in the third heavens and other evidences of heat stroke.

In all of this, the Apostles never seemed to get beyond Jesus, repentance, baptisms and faith in the sense of the Passover, putting out of sin pictured by the Days of Unleavened Bread. Whether they went beyond to recognize Pentecost as being part of "the Plan" is not clear. It was only toward the end of the epistle of Peter that he mentions that a 1,000 years is as a day and a day as a 1,000 years to the Lord. For all the "difficult sayings" of Paul, he nowhere seems to have mentioned the millennium thousand year period. None but John in Revelation had any idea about a second resurrection and a Great White Throne Judgment even with the statement of attaining to "the better resurrection".

It was probably enough that the early church only concentrated on redemption and salvation. It may well be that people have overestimated the early Christian Church. There was a dearth of materials and reading between the lines there was quite a lot of controversy because people didn't have the background knowledge to ascertain what the truth really was. There were a lot more issues than the ones resolved in Acts 15.

Which brings us to the STP and the doctrines of the WCG: One wonders at what even the Apostle Paul would have thought of them. From the perspective of the First Century, it certainly looks that there has been quite a lot of embellishment over the centuries and the developments might well leave the early disciples in shock if they were confronted with them.

There are a lot of unproved and unprovable assumptions. There is also quite a number of doctrines which have developed as a result of people's personal opinions. Which just fine if we want to live in the structure of the framework of the 1890s. But in order to make it work, there has to be quite a lot of isolation and there must be compartmentalization to resolve the obvious cognitive dissonance with the realities of the modern world.

Complicated by the fact that Old Testament Law dic...

2008-03-05T13:19:00.000+13:00

Complicated by the fact that Old Testament Law dictates that if someone is divorced it is a terrible thing to go back and remarry the same person.

If I recall right, we still had to write them up i...

2008-03-05T13:03:00.000+13:00

If I recall right, we still had to write them up into the early 80's but the "decision" was the local pastors if I remember right. My sense was that no one at HQ was going to decide anything on that topic. Then it just died out

Didn't D & R get resolved by 1975 or thereabouts. ...

2008-03-05T12:42:00.000+13:00

Didn't D & R get resolved by 1975 or thereabouts. I don't recall it being an issue anymore around 1978 among liberals or conservatives.

It was such a stupid doctrine anyway.

Neo,I understand for sure. If we just do a short s...

2008-03-05T12:33:00.000+13:00

Neo,
I understand for sure. If we just do a short search on the net on the topic of "Divorce and Remarriage" for the Christian, we find the same raging controversies today as they church tried to figure out in the 60's and 70's. The controversey is in the text more than any organization.

I don't know all the behind the scenes drama between the Armstrongs but the topic would divide any church that chooses to seek the one true answer to the topic.

It's a mess of a topic and not one most people today are ever going to agree on or put into any kind of practice. I know several divorced male and female pastors in huge religious organisations who have remarried. There was no bother with considering if they could or not based on "what does the Bible teach." They all would say the Bible is unclear and contradictory on the topic so it just does not enter into any practical considerations these days.

I"m not saying they don't exist, but I have yet to meet a person who says "I am divorced, yet still married in God's site to so and so.." The topic is just dead in any practical application.

It's all open to argument ad naseum.

I had to write D and R cases up over a period of about 10 years. Because of the "a brother or sister is not bound in such cases" perspective I took, every member ended up with "my judgement is that this person is not bound in their previous marriage." This was not because it was 'up to me' but rather I was NOT going to tell anyone they had to stay or leave someone EVER.

I knew the church was doubleminded on it all just like with the stupidity over make-make up and healing. I signed exemption forms for members for immunizations but asked them if this was their belief or they felt pressured by church "teaching'? I told them I had my own children immunized in the normal way and cycle for such things back in the mid seventies.

Somehow, no one bothered me on such topics and in the end at least I have no horror stories to wish I had not caused as far as I know or in good conscience as they say.

They are difficult topics if one is going to seek a "bible answer." and the controversey is unending

Nelson,Nice take on HWA.Paul

2008-03-05T11:57:00.000+13:00

Nelson,

Nice take on HWA.

Paul

Dennis: From you perspective as a minister dealing...

2008-03-05T11:54:00.000+13:00

Dennis:

From you perspective as a minister dealing with people, no doubt it was a serious and agaonizing topic.

But it was also a political football. After GTA did all the work to establish a new basis for D and R, it was canned by HWA.

Later HWA gave an account of having a church member knock on his door and plead with him about D and R. HWA was impressed with the man's deep discouragement. HWA then decided to re-examine the issue. When the doctrine was changed, GTA did not get a credit. It was presented as HWA's sole insight.

I later heard GTA, after he started his own church, say that the one really important thing that he gave to the WCG was a revision of D and R. Something, no doubt, his father would have strongly denied.

While people suffered and lives were broken to pieces, the need for revision was lost in the battle between father and son.

I believe that the various XCoGs have a moral responsibility to seek out all the children who were left without a parent by the D and R fiasco, and seek to make amends, whether psychological or material.

I can only imagine the horror of a child who is told that his Dad is not going to live with the family any more because of a church edict. I think of all the missed happiness and love. All of this because some men did not have the direction of the Holy Spirit and made a bunch of idosyncratic and dysfunctional decisions. By the fruit, you will know the tree.

-- Neo

Fasted for 100 days? How did you survive?

2008-03-05T11:51:00.000+13:00

Fasted for 100 days? How did you survive?

Every word that ever came out of the mouth of herb...

2008-03-05T11:06:00.000+13:00

Every word that ever came out of the mouth of herbert Armstrong was a lie. He lied repeatedly. Every lie was based on one motive, money.

When faced with those lies, he lied some more. When confronted with the suffering he was causing his followers by his three tithe system, he instituted the "tithe of the tithe."

While he drove around in a chauffered yellow cadillac limo, his followers were forced to drive in clunkers and carpool.

While he had private home health care by the very best doctors, his followers were dying because they were forbidden to take even simple antibiotics.

While his ministers viciously walked into member's homes and ordered husbands and wives to seperate because of a previous divorce, he re-married a divorced woman.

His prophecies NEVER MATERIALISED!
NOT EVEN ONE!

While he claimed divine inspiration and knowledge and "new truth," he STOLE every idea and doctrine he promolgated. He even plagerized word for word his major thesis, British Israelism. And, he never apologized or acknowledged the indiscretion.

HERBERT ARMSTRONG WAS A PREDATOR.

He preyed upon those seeking solace in Jesus Christ. He used deceptive mind games to lure into his web and once captured used mental and physical manipulation to twist the unsuspecting victim into a mental morass of contridiction and confusion.

After spending two decades in the web, i have been granted the gift of true repentance and FREEDOM!

Escape wasn't easy. In 1995 i fasted for 100 days. Then, slowly, mercifully, our Lord lifted the veil. Now, what was right in front of my face but hidden behind armstrong's deception is clear.

The plan of God is encompassed in one verse. John 3:16. God does love everyone. He stands ready to deliver anyone who asks. We don't need to follow dietary rules, pay three tithes, observe holy days or sabbaths. Why? Because Jesus Christ has already fulfilled our obligation to observe those rituals! It is done!

It had to be done for us, because not one of us could do it for ourselves. we are truly free!

All that is required is for us to accept it and run, don't walk away from armstrongism.