Comments on Ambassador Watch: Faithful flock's flinched fleeces

Okay, think. The beast whom Mystery Babylon rode w...

2007-11-17T16:29:00.000+13:00

Okay, think. The beast whom Mystery Babylon rode was who?

The kingdoms, territories and peoples of the Roman Empire, chiefly the eastern lands that once were a part of the empires of Babylon, Media-Persia, Alexander, and the Seleucidae.

And who was hated by the beast?

Rome was hated by the Beast.

Rome didn't hate Rome. Rome hated Jerusalem.

No, Rome didn't hate Rome, the peoples and lands under the Roman yoke hated Rome. Rome had no special animus for Jerusalem that Rome didn't have for the other peoples they'd conquered and enslaved.

Think man: Mystery Babylon the Great sits upon seven hills, and is the great city that rules over the nations of the earth. That's Rome, not Jerusalem.

Yes, I know some argue that there were seven hills in and aroud Jerusalem too, but prior to and during the time of Christ and the Apostles, Jerusalem was never known as the city of seven hills -- only Rome was. Nor was Jerusalem later famous as the city of seven hills. The attempt to find seven hills in Jerusalem is just a desperate attempt to make a favored interpretation fit the text, when the obvious interpretation is staring us in the face.

It's also fun to watch Preterists try to explain how Jerusalem could be dominating the known world at a time that the Roman Empire is besieging and sacking it. The last time Jerusalem was a city that ruled over an empire was during the reign of Solomon, about a thousand years before St. John wrote the Apocalypse. In the time of the Apostles, there was only one city that could be described the way "Babylon" was described in Rev. 17-18, and that's Rome.

At some point armstrongism's BS story will be refu...

2007-11-11T07:25:00.000+13:00

At some point armstrongism's BS story will be refuted.
See how the mormons explain their own twist of the descendants of Israel story and DNA away.
“Nothing in the Book of Mormon precludes migration into the Americas by peoples of Asiatic origin. The scientific issues relating to DNA, however, are numerous and complex.”

Sound like something the legal dept. of worldwierd would send out to someone who bitches they were taken for a financial bleeding!

Anonymous said... Those who call themselves "Assyr...

2007-11-11T07:18:00.000+13:00

Anonymous said...
Those who call themselves "Assyrian" today are not the same people but they are a people who migrated into the old Assyrian areas later after Assyrians moved on.

Get this straight in your mind. Assyrians were a northern SEMITIC people - Germans are ARYAN people.

It is historically well known that Romans left Italy long ago

What perverse history book have you been reading? Did it ever occur to you that maybe, just maybe, "some" Romans were Italian?

Some attempt to do a revisionist whitewash on HWA,...

2007-11-11T06:25:00.000+13:00

Some attempt to do a revisionist whitewash on HWA, claiming that he was only wrong in his understanding of the dates of the events. The dates were the chief vehicle by which HWA created a false sense of urgency that motivated people to do what they would never have done otherwise. And, it didn't bother him or anyone else amongst the team of young men he assembled to help him build his church that 1975 was HWA's second or third "misunderstanding" of prophecy.

They also needed to constantly change the details. HWA was kind of an "Axis Sally" during WWII, preaching that the USA was going to lose the war, and the tribulation would begin. When the USA emerged victorious, they could not believe it! They began preaching that Hitler had secretly escaped, (despite evidence that he had killed himself in his bunker), and was secretly living in South America, and that the world would soon be shocked by his return to lead a revitalized Germany.

Yep. You can only tell that God was working through HWA by the man's special understanding of prophecy. Obviously, the Holy Spirit was a very deep influence in HWA's life, and everything he taught was right. Just like William Miller, David Koresh, and Jim Jones.

BB

Those who call themselves "Assyrian" today are not...

2007-11-11T06:16:00.000+13:00

Those who call themselves "Assyrian" today are not the same people but they are a people who migrated into the old Assyrian areas later after Assyrians moved on. They appropriated the name just as has happened with many.
It is historically well known that Romans left Italy long ago, but people living in Rome call themselves "Roman".

"Hey Paul, watch out for that "beast", it has seve...

2007-11-11T05:10:00.000+13:00

"Hey Paul, watch out for that "beast", it has seven heads and ten horns so it must be . . . are you ready . . . Hitler's Germany."

Aarrrggghh! Your derisive attitude will only prolong your torment at the claws of the Great Tricerabeast! How long will you wallow in your unbeliefness, Oh unbeliever! The Tricerabeast will not suffer a fool, for he is the servant of the Almighty...or Satan...I forget who is causing/allowing the Great Tribyulation.

Paul

Tom said . . .After the above insane comment, in m...

2007-11-11T04:12:00.000+13:00

Tom said . . .

After the above insane comment, in might actually be a good idea to ask the Boston strangler to comment on the safety of women.

Take a deep breath, Tom, it's not the end of the world, that was "at hand" 2,000 years ago.

Take another deep breath, it's not going to end tomorrow either.

Take another deep breath, I will interpret Revelation any way I want to, you interpret it whatever wrong way you want to, there are plenty of biblically illiterates who will agree with you.

Hey Paul, watch out for that "beast", it has seven heads and ten horns so it must be . . . are you ready . . . Hitler's Germany.

Bwa-hahahahahahahaha hah

Corky>>>That Jerusalem is "Mystery Babylon" see th...

2007-11-11T01:00:00.000+13:00

Corky

>>>That Jerusalem is "Mystery Babylon" see the article at:

http://ex-christadelphian.blogspot.com/<<<

After the above insane comment, in might actually be a good idea to ask the Boston strangler to comment on the safety of women.

"Okay, think. The beast whom Mystery Babylon rode ...

2007-11-10T17:23:00.000+13:00

"Okay, think. The beast whom Mystery Babylon rode was who? And who was hated by the beast?"

You mock the Tricerabeast! The Tricerabeast of Prophecy will rend you with teeth of iron! If you live near the seacoast, move inland, for anyone with sense can see on the magazine cover that the Tricerabeast will rise from the water!

Paul

"Interpreting "Mystery Babylon" as Jerusalem or th...

2007-11-10T17:13:00.000+13:00

"Interpreting "Mystery Babylon" as Jerusalem or the Jews is popular with Preterists, but it is an interpretation unattested anywhere in history in the early centuries of Christianity. The earliest known interpretation is that Mystery Babylon was Rome."

Okay, think. The beast whom Mystery Babylon rode was who? And who was hated by the beast?

Rome didn't hate Rome. Rome hated Jerusalem.

No really, you can post a comment about not caring...

2007-11-10T13:16:00.000+13:00

No really, you can post a comment about not caring about who Assyrians are and really not care.

Who said you cared about who the Assyrians are? What you care about is that there are those who do care who the Assyrians are, and/or that there are those who don't care but make observations and comments about those who do.

There never was one true unified Church of God in history.

I suppose it depends on what one means by "one," "true," "unified," and "Church of God." It also depends on what one means by "history." You quote the utterly unreliable Freke and Gandy, so it doesn't appear we have the same definition of the word "history."

Have you ever actually read literalists writings?

Yes, but it doesn't appear that you have read any Gnostic writings. Of if you have, you weren't paying terribly close attention to them.

Not to mention the "elementary doctrines" that Paul wanted his disciples to LEAVE BEHIND as a Gnostic would expect, includes repentance, faith, baptism, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment...all the rituals and dogmas so precious to the literalist church past and present.

First of all, Hebrews is not exactly classified as one of St. Paul's epistles. Second, your goofy interpretation of Heb. 6:1-2 is unsupported by the actual text, which says nothing about abandoning rituals and dogmas so precious to the literalist church. "Not laying again a foundation" cannot mean "abandoning" -- unless we are to suppose that the author of Hebrews wanted the foundation ripped out from underneath the superstructure of Christian faith and practice?

Your views and interpretations have no more basis than and do just as much violence to the text as Herbert Armstrong's, and I warrant you've got just as many qualifications and just as much authority to hold forth on these matters as he did.

By knowing what happened in the first century pert...

2007-11-10T13:02:00.000+13:00

By knowing what happened in the first century pertaining to Jerusalem (Mystery Babylon) and the 3 1/2 year (forty two months) war in Revelation happened in 66 - 70 AD.

That's one possible interpretation of Revelation, but there's no way to know if it's the right one.

Not without a secret decoder ring, that is.

Interpreting "Mystery Babylon" as Jerusalem or the Jews is popular with Preterists, but it is an interpretation unattested anywhere in history in the early centuries of Christianity. The earliest known interpretation is that Mystery Babylon was Rome.

Not that any of that can actually be proven, of course.

Not to mention the "elementary doctrines" that Pau...

2007-11-10T09:19:00.000+13:00

Not to mention the "elementary doctrines" that Paul wanted his disciples to LEAVE BEHIND as a Gnostic would expect , includes repentance, faith, baptism, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment...all the rituals and dogmas so precious to the literalist church past and present.

To Paul, the "meat" of the literalists was mere milk. In the COG movement and most others, those topics are the whole point of their church organizations and message.

Joseph Campbell said it nicely, I believe, when he...

2007-11-10T09:10:00.000+13:00

Joseph Campbell said it nicely, I believe, when he noted,

"My favorite definition of religion is 'a misinterpretation of mythology.' And the misinterpretation consists precisely in attributing historical references to symbols which properly are spiritual in their reference."

There is no money from others to be taken or control over others by fear or retribution when the individual realizes the shallow spirituality offered by literalism.

"Literalists saw Gnostics as traitors who were undermining their attempts to unite the Church in the face of oppression by offering a theological justification for cowardice. Gnostics, on the other hand , saw Literalists as fanatical extremists leading the gullible to pointless suffering with false promises. The Jesus Mysteries, Freke and Gandy, pg. 227

Paul himself, in his genuine writings tends towards a more Gnostic thinking to many and is only later made to appear anti-gnostic.

Those who aren't sure if they literally did or dreamingly did float into the third heaven and saw things that could not be reported but had to report they couldn't be reported, ala Dave Pack, have issues.

No really, you can post a comment about not caring...

2007-11-10T08:43:00.000+13:00

No really, you can post a comment about not caring about who Assyrians are and really not care.

There never was one true unified Church of God in history. There were several layers of the Christian perspective extant even as seen in the NT. After all, one of the problems to "John" was someone going around teaching that Jesus never came in the flesh just a short time after "everyone" knew he did, or were told he did.

Literal or psychic Christians were baptised by water into the Outer or literalist mysteries of Christianity. For them the story of Jesus was literally true, he walked the earth, died and rose.

Mythical or Pneumatic Christians were second tier. They understood the story of Jesus as allegorical myths that pointed to a personal spiritual path. (Like hearding cats, which is why they were less popular with Apostles.)

Mystical or Gnostics found their identity in the Logos or Universal Daemon ( higher self). They tended to transcend the need for the Jesus story being the be all and end all. Since the Jesus story was so similar to paganism, they tended to mix them all into one grand mystical whole and drive literalists nuts. Of course the literalists drove them away.

Like Celsus, Gnostic Christians viewd literalism as superficial and simple minded. Origin himself was rather amazed that anyone would take such stories literally, since they are clearly allegorical.

"I believe that every man must hold these things for images under which a hidden sense lies concealed."

"I do not think anyone will doubt that these are figurative expressions which indicate certain Mysteries through a semblance of history and not through actual events." (of course he was wrong on the doubters)

Have you ever actually read literalists writings?

Jared Olar said... Anyone can understand the book ...

2007-11-10T08:22:00.000+13:00

Jared Olar said...
Anyone can understand the book of Revelation and you don't have to have the secret decoder ring of the so-called holy spirit to do it.

Maybe not, but you still need a "secret decoder ring." How else would one be able to interpret the four angels bound in the Euphrates as four Roman legions stationed at the Euphrates?

By knowing what happened in the first century pertaining to Jerusalem (Mystery Babylon) and the 3 1/2 year (forty two months) war in Revelation happened in 66 - 70 AD.

The destruction of Jerusalem had already happened and "Revelation" was to inform those in Asia of it and that the resurrection and judgment would "shortly come to pass" and at last, the kingdom of God would be realized.

That Jerusalem is "Mystery Babylon" see the article at:

http://ex-christadelphian.blogspot.com/

...and ultimately who gives a rat's ass?You do, fo...

2007-11-10T07:52:00.000+13:00

...and ultimately who gives a rat's ass?

You do, for one, or else you'd not have posted your comment.

The day "THE CHURCH" literalized the Bible into Sunday School stories is when human consciousness took a nosedive. Bring back the Gnostics...they had it first!

Had what first? Human consciousness? The Bible? Sunday School stories? The Church?

Have you actually read any Gnostic writings?

The Wholeworld Church of God in #3 of their statem...

2007-11-10T07:50:00.000+13:00

The Wholeworld Church of God in #3 of their statement of faith:

"We believe at this end time that we must follow the teachings shown
to us in The Bible by the apostle of the Worldwide Church of God as
the Philadelphia Era of the church. (REV. 3:7-13)"

Nuff said?

Anyone can understand the book of Revelation and y...

2007-11-10T07:49:00.000+13:00

Anyone can understand the book of Revelation and you don't have to have the secret decoder ring of the so-called holy spirit to do it.

Maybe not, but you still need a "secret decoder ring." How else would one be able to interpret the four angels bound in the Euphrates as four Roman legions stationed at the Euphrates?

...and ultimately who gives a rat's ass? Theology...

2007-11-10T07:45:00.000+13:00

...and ultimately who gives a rat's ass? Theology is not about special nations or bloodlines. That idea is what keeps this world reeling in stupidity, carnage and death.

The day "THE CHURCH" literalized the Bible into Sunday School stories is when human consciousness took a nosedive. Bring back the Gnostics...they had it first!

Hoeh was always going to do a booklet on the Assyr...

2007-11-10T07:42:00.000+13:00

Hoeh was always going to do a booklet on the Assyrians and he once visited Trier in Germany. Legend has it that Trebeta established an Assyrian colony there in 2000 BC.

He wrote a big PT article back in the 1960s entitled, "Germany in Prophecy," and it could easily have been turned into a booklet, but it remained available only as an article reprint. The article mentioned the Trebeta legend, as did his Compendium of Pseudo-History.

Back in the late 1970s or early 1980s, there was a WN article about a visit of some WCG ministers to Trier, with photos of an old inscription and fanciful artistic representation of the legendary founding of Trier by Trebeta, son of Ninus, King of Assyria.

This also gives Trier the ability to claim that the city is derived from an earlier civilization than Rome. I am sure this is a source of civic pride and brings in some tourist dollars.

The legend first appears in German chronicles during the 1100s A.D., during the height of the Investiture Controversy, when Pope and Emperor clashed over the authority to install and invest bishops. It is thought that the legend of Trebeta was concocted as a way to bolster the antiquity of the Germans, making them far older than Rome and therefore, so the argument would have gone, having precedence over the Pope in investing a bishop with incoming-producing farm land.

But there is quite a leap from this legend to the belief that Germans are Assyrians. It is comparable to finding evidence of Viking colonization in North American and racing to the conclusion that Native Americans are descended from Vikings. To my knowledge, the booklet was never published.

True, even if a handful of Assyrian colonists moved to Germany in far off antiquity, that wouldn't make all Germans Assyrians. It wouldn't even make ANY Germans Assyrians, though it might give some Germans a tiny drop of Assyrian blood.

Tom said . . .You commenting on the authenticity a...

2007-11-10T07:33:00.000+13:00

Tom said . . .

You commenting on the authenticity and veracity of the book revelation is like asking the Boston strangler to comment on the safety of women.

I could say the same about you but I won't because it's not true. Anyone can understand the book of Revelation and you don't have to have the secret decoder ring of the so-called holy spirit to do it.

Besides that, I have credentials that you don't know of, only I don't use them to start a cult and live off people's superstitions.

I heard of yet another split the other day, it's t...

2007-11-10T07:31:00.000+13:00

I heard of yet another split the other day, it's the Wholeworld Church of God - HQ in Tennessee - wwcog.org. What's next, the "Wholegrain Church of God"? No Whitebread sermons !

On the German/Assyrian issue, Hoeh took most of th...

2007-11-10T06:03:00.000+13:00

On the German/Assyrian issue, Hoeh took most of the Semitic branch of mankind and placed them in the modern Western European domain in order to support the idea of British-Israelism.

So Armstrongites would contend that the people we know as Assyrians are not really Assyrians and the Germans really are. For this, alas, there is no historical or genetic evidence. Just the writings of a advertising man and a "historian" with a "doctorate" in history from Ambassador College.

Hoeh was always going to do a booklet on the Assyrians and he once visited Trier in Germany. Legend has it that Trebeta established an Assyrian colony there in 2000 BC. This also gives Trier the ability to claim that the city is derived from an earlier civilization than Rome. I am sure this is a source of civic pride and brings in some tourist dollars. But there is quite a leap from this legend to the belief that Germans are Assyrians. It is comparable to finding evidence of Viking colonization in North American and racing to the conclusion that Native Americans are descended from Vikings. To my knowledge, the booklet was never published.

On the other hand, the Jews, keepers of the scripture, identify the Germans as being descended, at least in North Germany, from Ashkenaz, a patriarch descended from Japheth. While the Armstrongites are willing to acknowledge that the Jews are the keepers of the scripture and know all about how to manage the Holy Calendar, they otherwise do not believe the Jews know what they are talking about.

But if the Germans are Japhethic and resemble the people of Britain phenotypically and are geographically near them, it provides a dilemma for the "Semites are Northwest Europeans" group.

The interesting thing is that Hoeh discovered that ancient Irish chroniclers kept track of their ancestry. They identified the Welsh, for instance, as descending from Gomer, as do the Jews. But he attributed this to "monkish" tales designed to conceal the identity of
The True Israel, an assertion, to my knowledge, he never substantiated.

Fractal geometry. It is amazing to me how that in the Armstrongite fold there were concentrated so many people who had a desire to go out and start their own churches. I have seen that happen in local areas as well as at the national level. It virtually assures the perpetuation of Armstrongism. Each fractal bearing the attributes of the original.

-- Neo

>>>The whole book of Revelation is news of the des...

2007-11-10T05:24:00.000+13:00

>>>The whole book of Revelation is news of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 AD. That the resurrection and judgment and the thousand year reign didn't take place immediately following that destruction is not our fault. It's the fault of yet another misinterpretation of the OT prophecies by the early christians.<<<

You commenting on the authenticity and veracity of the book revelation is like asking the Boston strangler to comment on the safety of women.