Comments on Ambassador Watch: Have camera - will schmooze

So what you are saying is that Hulme is trying to ...

2008-02-20T03:27:00.000+13:00

So what you are saying is that Hulme is trying to pay his tuition for the doctorate by making church members pony up $65/copy in addition to grabbing their first, second, and third tithes, not to mention whatever special offerings they are called to give, in order to "finance the work".

Yeah there's no problem there.

I realize this post is a bit late, but my sense is...

2008-02-12T07:52:00.000+13:00

I realize this post is a bit late, but my sense is that D. Hulme is a relatively private, reserved person and this is reflected in the decisions to keep much of the COGaIC things out of the public eye.

From what I understand, his book is his doctoral thesis for a degree relating to Mid-east history/international relations. It's easy to take potshots at the various characters in the acogs, especially those who do say and outrageous things but in the case of his book it is not just shoot from the hip self-proclaimed scholarly work.

Ugh. Nuff said.We're starting a Tales from the Cu...

2008-02-07T03:55:00.000+13:00

Ugh. Nuff said.

We're starting a Tales from the Cult series at our blog. Stop by when you get the time.

"Not trying to be obtuse here, it's just that sinc...

2008-02-03T09:40:00.000+13:00

"Not trying to be obtuse here, it's just that since I left WCG in '75, I'd never heard of David Hulme until subscribing to the internet and discovering all of the WCG related sites and forums."

Actually, COG-AIC is very benign compared to the other COGs. However, like all other splinters, they have an aging membership with the young ones leaving in large numbers.

Charlie,If I could explain exactly what wigs me ou...

2008-02-02T09:43:00.000+13:00

Charlie,

If I could explain exactly what wigs me out, I would be farther along in dealing with it. Not being religious, nor having any desire to be so, my ecclesiophobia doesn't unduly impact my daily life and therefore will probably remain untreated. ;)

As for my reaction, it is a purely hind-brain response; the particularly gothic-looking churches (high anglican ones do the same thing to me it's an ecumenical kind of phobia that way), just generate a flood of memories and recalls.

I mean, google "gothic church interiors" and you will see what I mean (or at least where I'm coming from). The ornate altars at the front, the stained glass windows, the statues that are life-like or larger, they just feel (subjectively and instinctively) like the end of the world.

The Armageddon and apocalypse, the great whore of babylon, the seven- and ten-headed beasts, the fire-and-brimstone invective rained down weekly from the pulpit about them there eeeeebul catholics, I look at those churches and it's stuck on permanent loop in my head.

I'm a sucker for history and museums and old buildings, and intellectually I can appreciate that the cathedrals were in all likelihood built by stonemasons who didn't even subscribe to the religion practiced in the monuments they were erecting. I would like nothing better than to be able to completely appreciate the great art inherent in these buildings that, in some cases, predate the country itself.

Emotionally is another matter entirely, unfortunately, and it's one of the few vestiges of the cult programming that remains entrenched.

Purplehymnal said: "Not that I'm becoming an apolo...

2008-02-01T10:10:00.000+13:00

Purplehymnal said: "Not that I'm becoming an apologetic for the RCC; the pictures of the insides of their churches still wig me out."

What wigs you out? They are some of the most beautiful churches I have ever been in. Not that I think it is necessarily the best way to spend the church's money but they do tend to get centuries of use out of their buildings, whereas the WCG only got a few decades.

I am a presbyterian and our sanctuaries tend to be very plain, but pleasing at the same time. IT is fairly rare to see stained glass in a presbyterian church although the one in my town as well as the one I attend both have stained glass. My particular building was built in 1826 but I think the building will be standing long after the demise of my denomination, which if the direction of the presbytery is any indication, won't be too long from now.

Ooooooops sorry, didn't mean to offend with the co...

2008-02-01T09:48:00.000+13:00

Ooooooops sorry, didn't mean to offend with the comment about the RCC churches..... :O

Not that I'm becoming an apologetic (sic) for the ...

2008-02-01T09:00:00.000+13:00

Not that I'm becoming an apologetic (sic) for the RCC

Yeah, that's MY job!

:-D

"I'd have to wonder if the same phenomenon happens...

2008-02-01T07:00:00.000+13:00

"I'd have to wonder if the same phenomenon happens amongst Catholics and Jews, both of whom have incredible internal records substantiating their belief systems."

I can't really comment on the Catholic side of things (beyond the stuff I've already said about Constantine which I won't babble on about anymore), but from what (admittedly little) I've seen, read, and researched about the Judaic system, for all their legalism, they seem far more open than most.

I.e., there seems to be no instant ostracization or "You're gonna be a crispy critter!" if you say you don't believe in god, or if you choose to follow some of the rules and not all of them, after a certain point. It seems like there is an allowance made, for an extremely wide spectrum of observance, as well as belief, under this giant umbrella that is Judaism.

Which is another thing that sends the evangelicals up the wall: "You have a religion but you don't control and browbeat people and carry a great big stick at all times?! You pagan devils!!!!"

(That's a summary of the "bible study" that was in the most recent issue of Northern Light, the Canadian WCG's propaganda organ, by the way.)

The Catholics, on the other hand, were so extremely demonized by the WCG because they were Herbie's only competition. You think our brainwashing was bad? Objectively examined, the RCC's brainwashing is worse.

The adverse effects, however, are not nearly as bad, nor nearly as toxic, in the RCC as they were in the WCG.

Not that I'm becoming an apologetic for the RCC; the pictures of the insides of their churches still wig me out.

Byker Bob,I think that most churches hemmorage you...

2008-02-01T03:55:00.000+13:00

Byker Bob,

I think that most churches hemmorage young people during their college years and mid-twenties. My experience with the Presbyterian and Catholic denominations is that in their late twenties / early thirties, as they get married, settle down and have children, many of them come back to church. I don't remember very many returning to the COG's...I know I didn't.

Going back to archaeology, or at least a related t...

2008-01-31T18:28:00.000+13:00

Going back to archaeology, or at least a related topic, it seems that mainstream Christian churches share one problem with the ACOGs: Many of the young people leave almost immediately following graduation from high school.

The mainstream churches blame this on the effectiveness of high school science classes in neutralizing the Old Testament. There's actually an internet ministry dedicated to strengthening creation science to counteract the mass exodus of young Christians.

In the New Testament, Jesus validates such Old Testament figures as Moses, Elijah, and King David, and Paul refers to Adam. The weakest link of the Bible is probably Genesis, as science, archaeology, and history have all been used to successfully attack it. If the kids buy into that, in their minds the NT seemingly falls right along with it.

I'd have to wonder if the same phenomenon happens amongst Catholics and Jews, both of whom have incredible internal records substantiating their belief systems.

BB

Someone wrote:"Mr. Hulme's sect, as it is often re...

2008-01-31T08:18:00.000+13:00

Someone wrote:

"Mr. Hulme's sect, as it is often referred to, is not secret at all, and your concern is based on lack of knowledge of how it operates."

The "lack of knowledge" about the group is because of the secretiveness.

Another little "special knowledge" group.
Isn't that special?

David Hulme was indeed the face of The World Tomor...

2008-01-31T07:55:00.000+13:00

David Hulme was indeed the face of The World Tomorrow in the 80s, and was the only TV we were allowed to watch "on the Sabbath".

Either I wasn't discerning enough at that age, or Hulme had mastered his delivery style by that time, because I never noticed any of the laughabilities posted earlier upthread. I just recall being absolutely positively bored by the let's-visit-the-middle-east segments.

The history of the COG-AIC is interesting, and is far more accessible, as someone pointed out earlier, than what is available on the Internet from the group itself.

The fact that he married someone thirty-five years his junior is disgusting, but considering the political environment he came out of, hardly surprising.

Nice to know they're not lining themselves up for a Kool-Aid moment in the spotlight, like Weinland has planned for the end of April, however.

Libro,Thanks for filling in the gap for me also. I...

2008-01-31T06:46:00.000+13:00

Libro,

Thanks for filling in the gap for me also. I left in 1976, and had never heard of David Hulme.

Richard

/-- Not trying to be obtuse here, it's just that s...

2008-01-31T06:30:00.000+13:00

/-- Not trying to be obtuse here, it's just that since I left WCG in '75, I'd never heard of David Hulme until subscribing to the internet and discovering all of the WCG related sites and forums. --/

Actually, that's kind of neat. You missed out on Herbert Armstrong's last decade, but you're only behind on one or two names!

As a kid, I don't recall David Hulme being mentioned much before '86. He would occasionally travel with the Apostle, but that's about it. I think he spent some time in Japan to help fill the gap Rader and Gotoh left behind.

When Armstrong died, Tkach didn't take over the TV show. Instead, he gave it to three presenters: David Hulme, Dave Albert, and Richard Ames. All three were uncomfortable in front of the camera that first year, but Ames seemed to get used to it first. Albert had the ability to take even important topics and make them boring. And Hulme was a hoot -- my folks and I would watch just to see that next really bad hand gesture. It was especially side-splitting when we hit the fast-forward button on the VCR.

But fun aside, Hulme was one of the voices of the World Tomorrow. He was one of the instruments God was using to preach the gospel to the world! So while we laughed whenever it looked like he was getting frustrated with the teleprompter for being too slow, we also admired him. And of course, as time went on, his delivery improved. During his tenure as presenter, he took us to interesting places -- I remember particularly a tour of the ruins of Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamos, and all the rest. Thanks to his British accent, he was able to come across as "scholarly" to us Americans.

Fast-forward to '95. Joe Tkach Sr. gave his wonderful sermon telling everyone that no, God wasn't going to fix WCG and put everything back to the way it was. This was Tkach's church, and if you didn't like it, don't let the door smack you in the behind on the way out. Now that the people knew that, a bunch of ministers could walk out and start UCG.

Hulme was United's first president. Remember, he was one of the faces of the World Tomorrow, so everyone figured he would be respected by people who were trying to choose between UCG, LCG, PCG, and all the rest.

But Hulme wasn't happy being president of a church he couldn't control. Besides, he missed being in front of the camera. So he spent a million bucks or so on a TV special that was supposed to be the start of UCG's effort to preach the gospel. And then the film sat in the can while everyone argued over it.

In the end, Hulme was blamed for putting the church in debt. He was also very much against moving the UCG Home Office (that's HO, not HQ!) from southern California to Cincinnati, despite his lip service to the UCG way of making decisions. Relations worsened between Hulme and the rest of the Council of Elders, and they decided to remove him from the presidency.

So he picked up his toys and left. Now he has COG-AIC. UCG obviously decided they didn't want to air his super-duper TV special, so they gave it to him. It's been on cable once or twice.

And that's the story -- at least up to where Charlie and Bill picked up.

Libro

Hulme's Sect is basically remnants of various UCG ...

2008-01-31T03:33:00.000+13:00

Hulme's Sect is basically remnants of various UCG churches from that split. The majority of their membership is over 60 and some of them are very nice people...others are downright weird. Hulme is living his dream right at the moment. He has a few thousand people to fund his lifestyle, research, globe-trotting, and keep his young wife in nice clothes, homes, and cars. What do the tithe-payers get for their buck? A nice looking periodical, sharp front man for the cameras and the occasional DVD. They still think the end is near although I don't believe they spend a great deal of time on prophecy, just reflecting on how corrupt the world is...It doens't take a profit to figure that last part out though. I agree with Dennis Diehl's assessment of David Hulme which is posted earlier in this thread.

anonymous said...""Mr. Hulme's sect", as it is oft...

2008-01-30T19:14:00.000+13:00

anonymous said...

""Mr. Hulme's sect", as it is often referred to, is not secret at all, and your "concern" is based on lack of knowledge of how it operates."

I realized some time ago that there is no sense in trying to defend anyone or any organization on these forums.....as a general rule, the regulars at these places have no interest in anything that contradicts their view. (and I'm ok with that)
So just let them be.....besides, the reading can be interesting here at times.

Is Hulme extremely toxic, like Gerald Flurry and D...

2008-01-30T18:58:00.000+13:00

Is Hulme extremely toxic, like Gerald Flurry and David Pack? Or is he benign toxic, like UCG?

Not trying to be obtuse here, it's just that since I left WCG in '75, I'd never heard of David Hulme until subscribing to the internet and discovering all of the WCG related sites and forums.

Just as a general rule of thumb, I don't believe there is any such thing as a good ACOG splinter. Too much extra-biblical stuff and outright error. The "new" WCG hold no appeal, either.

BB

Something to hide, unwilling to risk exposure of w...

2008-01-30T18:34:00.000+13:00

Something to hide, unwilling to risk exposure of wrong doing and beliefs or both.

"Of course, expecting those same members to pony u...

2008-01-30T17:50:00.000+13:00

"Of course, expecting those same members to pony up $65 for his own version of Mystery of the Ages,..."

Actually, the $65 book is a rather dry academic monograph on the Middle East. It's the dissertation that earned him a PhD in international relations at USC.

"The unique ability to create distorted drivel out...

2008-01-30T15:38:00.000+13:00

"The unique ability to create distorted drivel out of fantasy to build completely dysfunctional environments."

Or deities.

Paul

Neo said:"Read about the influence of Ales Hrdlick...

2008-01-30T14:31:00.000+13:00

Neo said:

"Read about the influence of Ales Hrdlicka and his influence on North American archaeology."

That's exactly right. Hrdlicka could ruin a career at will in his quest to debunk Clovis man in America over 12,000 years ago.

However, he was eventually run over by good science and evidence of Clovis man from Washington State to Florida (I have three very nice fluted Clovis points sitting right here) The same is happening and will happen on many topics Bible literalists hold so dear as "knowledge increases"

Knowledge increasing IS a sign of the end of an age, but not quite as we had once thought :)

Annonymous wrote:"Mr. Hulme's sect", as it is ofte...

2008-01-30T13:40:00.000+13:00

Annonymous wrote:
"Mr. Hulme's sect", as it is often referred to, is not secret at all, and your "concern" is based on lack of knowledge of how it operates."

MY RESPONSE: Not secretive?? Their FOT sites are closed to "members only" (no visitors from other COGs allowed). Hulme has spoken the edict of "no dating or marriage outside our church", (again including other COGs), also incidentally after he had already conveniently remarried a young girl in her early 20s who was some 35 years his junior!

His member site newsletter etc. used to be available to the public via the internet, but is now required to be accessed via password only. What's so special to be hidden? Even Tkach's WCG lets anyone look at its member "Together/WCG News".

Hulme members do not post on forums, do not contribute to the Journal, and to my knowledge, I have never seen one of them visiting any other COG, and I live in Southern California, a strong Hulme hamlet.

So again I ask, is it because of secretiveness or is it simply a matter of arrogance??

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

I was once going to be an archaeologist and spent ...

2008-01-30T13:06:00.000+13:00

I was once going to be an archaeologist and spent some time in college studying in this field. I found anthropologists and archaeologists to be some of the most inflexible people alive, other than Islamic fundamentalists. The literature contains many examples of people who attempted to inject new findings into the archaeological canon and found themselves crucified. Read about the influence of Ales Hrdlicka and his influence on North American archaeology.

Fundamentalism is objectionable in any form, whether "Christian" or atheistic or archaelogical.

-- Neo

2008-01-30T13:04:00.000+13:00

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