Comments on Ambassador Watch: Ames at the reins

What a laugh fest!!If you want a list of ministers...

2008-09-29T07:51:00.000+13:00

What a laugh fest!!
If you want a list of ministers to be avoided ... ask any old-timer! How about Paul Shumway?
talk about a power hungry chest-beater! He actually ranks right up there with Pack!
Wait and see how things shake out at LCG ... Unless RCM does something, he will be right up there with the "big boys!" He has destroyed several congregations since he left UCG. Can't wait to see what he does in his new assignment.
I missed the Sabbath where all the ladies and teen girls were required to come up onto the stage and get on their knees ... if their skirt didn't touch the floor, they were sent home. It couldn't be too long either ... this was in the days of the maxi skirt and midi skirt.
I heard all about it when other folks came home from services.

Hi Leonardo,Thanks for the memories!//-- And just ...

2008-09-29T05:02:00.000+13:00

Hi Leonardo,

Thanks for the memories!

//-- And just in case anyone is thinking "These are just the negative recollections of angry and bitter ex-members!" - you'd be wrong. ALL of the people who relayed these things to me were long-time, faithful, and then current members of the WCG, though I've long since lost touch with most of them and don't know where they are today in terms of church affiliation. --//

Rod Meredith has mentioned a few of the things you just recounted. Of course, when he does, it's always with wistfulness as he reflects upon those "wonderful" old days. To him, they are positive recollections.

Libro

(My grandfather characterized some ministers from the time like this: When they said "Jump!" you were expected to ask "How high?" -- on the way up!)

Not doubting you, Leonardo. I'm just agape and as...

2008-09-29T04:31:00.000+13:00

Not doubting you, Leonardo. I'm just agape and astounded at it.

Makes you wonder what sort of questions are on the exams at HWA College in Edmond.

I don't think many people are convinced Meredith i...

2008-09-29T00:16:00.000+13:00

I don't think many people are convinced Meredith is the only person at the vanguard of God's work. If some do, it's probably good they've found something to believe in. At their level of comprehension they need something to hang on to in this crazy world. And as they grow they'll learn to make better judgments.

Why does is seem that most people want a speedy re...

2008-09-28T15:43:00.000+13:00

Why does is seem that most people want a speedy recovery for a man that leads people to believe that he is the only man doing a powerful work or the spear head of the work of God. Maybe it is time he sleeps and waits to meet his maker. What is wrong with that? Or is it that most of these men aren't really sure that they will make it to the Kingdom of Heaven! They claim to be so close to God, but they sure don't want to be by his side too soon.

Richard wrote:"Are you kidding me -- an Ambassador...

2008-09-28T13:42:00.000+13:00

Richard wrote:
"Are you kidding me -- an Ambassador College exam with questions on HWA's autobiography? In a DOCTRINE class???"

No Richard, I'm neither kidding nor exaggerating for effect. I'm telling you the absolute truth. The class was called "Doctrines of the Worldwide Church of God" and on one of the exams students had their knowledge tested on HWA's autobiography.

Apparently Dick Ames thought it was an important matter at the time (Fall semester of 1979).

Libro wrote:"In your chats with old-timers, w...

2008-09-28T13:33:00.000+13:00

Libro wrote:
"In your chats with old-timers, what did they tell you about this time? ['50 & '60's] I'm interested.

Hey Libro - Well, over the years they told me all kinds of stories covering many different issues. One thing I remember them saying was the reason they weren't all that anxious to follow Rod Meredith out of the WCG when he started his Global Church of God in the early '90's (which I understand was quite a disappointment for Rod because he just assumed many members would clearly recognize that God had given him the reigns of the Church in light of all the new changes occuring under Joe Tkack Sr.) was because they remember a lot of the more zany incidences during that period of time took place with Righteous Rod leading the charge!

Then the whole flap with women's facial make-up became a major issue. Yes, I realize many try these days to play it down, saying it really wasn't that big of a deal, but the words you qouted from GTA pretty much set the tone at HQ in those days. Just read some of the old issues of The Good News that are on-line - the strident, oppressive tone of those screetching "get-it-together-soon-or-you'll-fry-in-the-lake-of-fire" articles just cannot be refuted. It's all right there in black and white!

And then there were the almost constant financial problems that threatened to "destroy the Work" that HWA was always reminding members of in his monthly letters - one crisis after the next. Of course, most of this was caused by extremely incompetent business management that was rampant out there at the time because HWA valued loyalty much more than actual competence. HWA's member/coworker letters (ALL of them dating back to 1934) are out there on the Internet as well, just in case anyone doubts what I'm saying here.

Employees often had to wait long periods of time in order to get paid - this was another common occurrance during those "Golden Years" of the Work.

And just in case anyone is thinking "These are just the negative recollections of angry and bitter ex-members!" - you'd be wrong. ALL of the people who relayed these things to me were long-time, faithful, and then current members of the WCG, though I've long since lost touch with most of them and don't know where they are today in terms of church affiliation.

One guy told me that a supervisor he once had (as I recall in the Publishing Department) told him, "I represent God's Government, and if I tell you to go out in the street, get down on your knees and clean it with a toothbrush, then you'll do it!"

Then there was the time during a Church softball game that a thunder-storm moved in overhead, and it started raining. "God's Government" - in the form of a local minister - commanded all the players to keep playing, in spite of the dangerous lightening, thunder and rain, because he was "testing their obedience."

Stories like this are almost endless.

Are you kidding me -- an Ambassador College exam w...

2008-09-28T08:12:00.000+13:00

Are you kidding me -- an Ambassador College exam with questions on HWA's autobiography? In a DOCTRINE class???

Talk about being off the track.

It's true that we have many differing kinds of exp...

2008-09-28T04:30:00.000+13:00

It's true that we have many differing kinds of experiences with the very same people. And this includes the various perceptions commentators here on this particular blog have toward certain ministers.

From old timers I've talked to through the years, a lot of these guys came fresh out of AC in standard fashion: graduated on Friday, ordained on Saturday, married on Sunday, then given a fleet car and sent out to a church area on Monday.

But this formula had some real drawbacks, including a lot of very stressful life changes, all occuring in the course of one weekend.

Subsequently, these overly-zealous, freshly-graduated young fellows got out to their new assignments, and, armed with absolutely idiotic beliefs such as "God won't allow his leaders to make mistakes," many of them proceeded to make life a living hell for people under their charge.

But in all fairness, at least some of them learned over time that beating people up with the club of "God's Government" just wasn't the way to go. Unfortunately, a very large number of innocent people suffered some terrible wounds inflicted upon them by "God's Servants" over the decades.

Add to this frequently-occurring scenerio the fact that much of this nonsense was backed up and reinforced by Pasadena Headquarters, and well, the rest is history.

Hi Leonardo,//-- But during my gig out in Pasadena...

2008-09-28T03:54:00.000+13:00

Hi Leonardo,

//-- But during my gig out in Pasadena I befriended many of the old-time members and employees who were actually around during those years [the 50's/60's], and in private conversation they were virtually unanimous in their recollections that this period of time was anything but "Golden". --//

I've often wished for an "Ambassador Report" dating back that far. Good documentation on the "other side" of any WCG controversy doesn't begin until about the 70's, with Trechak, Jones, Zola, and Gerringer. Their coverage discusses matters going back to the "East Coast Rebellion" of the early 70's, and the administration of the healing doctrine going back to Rod Meredith's '68 letter -- but that's about it.

But in my perusal of old WCG lit, I ran across references to, um, unrest as early as 1957 or '58. Garner Ted wrote a very stern article in the Plain Truth (interestingly, not the Good News) in which he threatened that all who disobey "Mr. Armstrong" (that's the way he referred to his dad) would die in horrible anguish in the Lake of Fire.

What were the issues? Ted represented them thusly: Some people out in the boonies were building entire worship services around The World Tomorrow -- they would get together, listen to the radio program, and then someone would get up and give a sermon/sermonette of his own. And sometimes they would say things contrary to official church doctrine! (Horrors!) This, I gather, is the beginning of the "no bible studies without a minister present" rule.

Ted also says there were some people who dared to believe Pentecost is on Sunday rather than Monday! The nerve! Why, don't you have faith that Jesus Christ leads His Church? If a church is even one tenth of one percent wrong, it cannot be the true Church of God! (Yes, he said that...)

Finally, Ted tells us that all those rebellious women who dare to put makeup on their faces in defiance of Mr. Armstrong's teachings will burn in the Lake of Fire -- with lipstick on their screaming mouths as they gurgle their last breath! (And let's not forget, he's telling them this in LOVE!)

But that's all the details I was able to get. The only side of the story I've been able to hear is the official party line. I asked my grandfather (who was around in the 50's) what he remembered. Apparently it didn't happen where he was, because all he knew was the official WCG/RadioCOG story. He said it caused quite a stir, though. Rod Meredith has mentioned it once or twice, but of course he didn't say anything different either.

In your chats with old-timers, what did they tell you about this time? I'm interested.

Libro

(LCG ministers today try to tell us that makeup was never actually a doctrine, and never a matter of salvation. Right. Dying horribly in the Lake of Fire has nothing to do with salvation or a lack thereof...)

Charlie,I guess your comment proves my point. I k...

2008-09-28T01:34:00.000+12:00

Charlie,

I guess your comment proves my point. I know people firsthand (not an "I've heard....." situation) who've been trashed out by Masterson. I'm glad that was not your experience.

Somebody wrote:Others such as Ron Reedy, Bill Swan...

2008-09-27T19:35:00.000+12:00

Somebody wrote:

Others such as Ron Reedy, Bill Swanson, and Sal Cimino were pompous power hungry a**holes.

My father went through four or five years of hell with Ron Reedy. The Phoenix congregation happened to be his first assignment fresh out college.

Ron Reedy made the statement once in a sermon that "God won't allow his leaders to make mistakes!"

After services my in-your-face ex-WWII fighter pilot father asked Reedy how he correlated that opinion given the example of King David in the Bible, a man after God's own heart.

My father spent the next 4 years having deacons dropping into his business trying to trip him up on one technicality or another in an effort to get him kicked out of the church.

Reedy organized the deacons like an SS Goon squad.

The ACOGs don't want no innalexuals. It just ain'...

2008-09-27T12:47:00.000+12:00

The ACOGs don't want no innalexuals. It just ain't spirichul.

BB

Anonymous said: "I think the comments here are ver...

2008-09-27T12:28:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said: "I think the comments here are very interesting. Some like Dick Ames, others had bad experiences. One poster liked Marc Masterson, while I know others whose lives he totally mucked up/with"

Look, I can't stand armstrongism and as a general rule have come to loathe most aspects of all religion although I am still a believer in God...With that said, I find it hard to believe that Marc Masterson would ruin anybody's life. Not impossible, but difficult to believe.

Anonymous 10:58 wrote:"Several [teachers at A...

2008-09-27T08:06:00.000+12:00

Anonymous 10:58 wrote:
"Several [teachers at AC] were first rate intellects, and often had to leave when lesser lights in high places felt threatened. Dorothy, Grabbe, Kuhn, Geis, Friebergs, an host of others."

I heartily agree with you on this observation, Anonymous 10:58.

In fact, I was privileged to have "sat at the feet" of all of them at one time or another during my sojourn at AC: Charles Dorothy was my instructor for Old Testament Survey II, Lester Grabbe for Elementary Hebrew, George Geis for General Epistles, and Gunar Friebergs for Old Testament Survey I. Robert Kuhn once guest lectured for a Psychology 101 course, typically taught by another excellent instructor, Dr. Robert Oberlander.

And let's not forget Dr. Stavrinedies (pardon me for butchering the spelling of his last name!) - a wonderful instructor of Biblical Scholarship, Classics, and Logic & Rhetoric.

And although he stopped teaching undergraduate classes by the time of my tenure at AC, I still am very grateful and honored to this day for having been able to enjoy and profit from a close friendship with Dr. Hoeh.

So yes, there were indeed some extremely gifted teachers at AC. I mean, Dr. George Geis, for instance - the man was BORN to teach superbly well, his General Epistles class probably being the best single academic class I ever experienced in my entire life.

About a decade or so ago Dr. Geis taught a video class for The Teaching Company on Business Statistics - and I borrowed a copy of it from my local library just to see him again for the first time in about 25 years or so. And it was amazing - Dr. Geis can make even a real yawner like Business Statistics exciting, relevant and invigorating.

However, as you point out, often time these first-rate, natural teachers were often pushed aside by men of considerably lesser caliber in the frequent power shuffles as “Christ was leading His Apostle to set things back on the right track at God’s college!”

I’ll tell you, if Christ truly was behind getting rid of those fellows, then all I can say is I really question His judgment on what constitutes a superb instructor who has the rare ability to make academic subject matter not only extremely stimulating but a joy to learn.

Larry said"I will also add a personal observation ...

2008-09-27T07:34:00.000+12:00

Larry said

"I will also add a personal observation about these people, call them what you will, evil or narcissistic. They instinctively recognize and despise people who are good, and especially those with God's Spirit."

Kinda big into glittering generalities aren't your there Lawrence?

Bamboo_Bends talked above about a conversation he ...

2008-09-27T04:48:00.000+12:00

Bamboo_Bends talked above about a conversation he once had with Dick Ames.

That story triggered a recollection of my own that occurred in a 1979 class at AC Pasadena (and if my memory serves me right it was called "Doctrines of the WCG") where Mr. Ames was the instructor, and after a test was given and graded, he went over it one question at a time during the next class session.

Anyway, part of the test examined our knowledge of HWA's autobiography (and then we seriously wondered why the accrediting authorities always resisted accrediting AC as a legitimate educational institution!), and one question was about HWA's very FIRST job as a teen-ager. I answered on the test that it was working as a draftsmen for some furnace company, or some such thing. Mr. Ames said no, it was his summer job at the resort where the boss praised his character qualities and said he was destined for great things, which inspired the young HWA to study and apply himself from that point on.

Well, I didn't back down, and politely yet forcefully disputed Mr. Ames' "correct" answer, proving from the autobio itself that my answer was actually the right one.

To Dick Ames' credit, he openly admitted in front of the class (since he really had no other options) that I (the lowly AC student) was right, and he (the all-knowing minister/instructor) was wrong.

I knew of other instructors at the college, especially ordained ones, who would NEVER have publically humbled themselves in this kind of situation, and most likely my educational career at AC would have ended shortly thereafter following a stern lecture on the evils of my "bad attitude."

So I acknowledge that at least Dick Ames had the character to openly admit when he was wrong.

Baashabob said: //-- What you have observed and ex...

2008-09-27T04:00:00.000+12:00

Baashabob said: //-- What you have observed and experienced is very typical behaviour for socio/psychopaths. All is sweetness and light. They will charm the socks off you UNTIL they detect you are becoming less compliant with THEIR wishes. The real test will come when you have a serious disagreement with them. Then and only then, will you see their real character. And it won't be a pleasant experience. --//

Point given -- and agreed. I've even been on the receiving end from time to time. But ordinary, non-sociopathic people also show kindness, and that makes it difficult to tell who's who until, as you say, there is "less compliance" or even "serious disagreement."

Bamboo: //-- DICK: Your eyes are red! Are you smoking marijuania? --//

Lol! See, this is a situation of "less compliance." (Kudos for standing up to him, Bamboo.) Does Ames still act that way today? I honestly don't know, because he hasn't been in the same position of evaluating people -- and being expected to intimidate them. For the last decade or so, he could "afford" to be nice. I don't recall hearing any recent stories of "serious disagreement" with Richard Ames and how he reacted. Not saying there aren't any, just that I haven't heard them.

Larry: //-- But what is evil then? There actually is a DSM definition. It is a Narcissistic Personality Disorder. --//

I won't say we all have a little narcissist inside us, but many do -- including yours truly. Many of us had to be taught by Mom and/or Dad that the universe does not hold its breath for us, and we should think about how other people feel before we act.

I fight my little narcissist the most when the bills are due and the bank account is low. :-)

//-- These people think the world revolves around them. --//

Herbert did, Ted did, and Rod does. Does Ames?

He does believe the world revolves around "The Church." He recently participated in papering over a controversy in which a (now deceased) pastor castigated average members for "breaking" the Sabbath, but turned a blind eye to his (the pastor's) own son-in-law's Sabbath work ethic.

Libro

(I'd break the little mirror that my little narcissist uses, but that would be seven years' bad luck. Besides, all that broken glass inside me...)

Bamboo_Bends wrote:"There's NOTHING that satisfies...

2008-09-27T03:26:00.000+12:00

Bamboo_Bends wrote:
"There's NOTHING that satisfies these people [Pasadena Big Shots] other than continuous groveling and sucking up."

Yes, it took me awhile to finally figure that one out (such was the stranglehold my illusions about "God's Government" had on my naïve young mind), but your comment above SAYS IT ALL about surviving at Pasadena Headquarters. Very similar to surviving within the context of any dictatorship, like Nazi Germany, Saddam's rule in Iraq, etc., though obviously on a much smaller and less dangerous scale - but in principle, virtually the same.

But I must say that during my time out there I met some of the finest, most genuine, well-meaning people I've ever met in my life (mostly just common members), along with some of the biggest status-seeking losers I've ever met in my life, often in positions of power (ministers, supervisors, college administrators, etc.). In many ways I guess the WCG drew BOTH general kinds of people, with the HWA-like wannabes frequently rising to the top of the heap.

But truly is a tree ultimately known by it fruits - and Pasadena as we knew and experienced it is no more, with the exception of the many splinter groups earnestly trying (yet failing miserably) to replicate the WCG in its heyday.

I remember one minister in David Hulme's group actually saying once in a sermonette that he thought the Church's "Golden Years" were in the late '50's and early '60's.

But during my gig out in Pasadena I befriended many of the old-time members and employees who were actually around during those years, and in private conversation they were virtually unanimous in their recollections that this period of time was anything but "Golden".

One thing I think the splinter groups HAVE been able to duplicate and maintain quite well in their bickering, ineffective little groups are environments of absolute illusion and fantasy for their gullible followers desperate for their weekly fix of old-time WCG fundamentalist religion.

THAT, along with providing the ministry paychecks and pension funding, is pretty much why they exist.

I think the comments here are very interesting. S...

2008-09-27T03:13:00.000+12:00

I think the comments here are very interesting. Some like Dick Ames, others had bad experiences. One poster liked Marc Masterson, while I know others whose lives he totally mucked up/with.

WCG and its offshoots are very judgmental systems. Those who for some reason are liked by an ordained person can sing their praises, another can see the paths of shattered lives in the same man's wake.

It is a shame that these men could not love, accept and encourage all in appropriate ways. Of course that's a tall order for any of us, eh?

"Most importantly, we need to remember that the Go...

2008-09-27T02:23:00.000+12:00

"Most importantly, we need to remember that the God revealed in your Bible has the ability to exercise total power and total control of nations and individuals..."

And he does it in such a subtle way as to give the impression that he isn't involved at all! Such a subtle hand! In fact, if you didn't know any better, you wouldn't have guessed that God was behind Hitler and the Holocaust! But he was!

As the Joker says,

"It's all part of the ~big~ plan..."

Paul Ray

Leonardo, I won't comment on your gifted golden re...

2008-09-26T22:58:00.000+12:00

Leonardo, I won't comment on your gifted golden retriever, but on this I will:

"And one thing I found out - the actual intellectual capacity of most of them [was] considerably lower than I have ever guessed. I mean, some of them couldn't reason their way of out a paper bag, if you know what I mean."

Several were first rate intellects, and often had to leave when lesser lights in high places felt threatened. Dorothy, Grabbe, Kuhn, Geis, Friebergs, an host of others. All unconverted?

I suppose it's that way everywhere. Some top dogs prefer sycophants below them. Together they gang up on anyone with enough moxie to dare think, intelligently, for themselves.

"I don't think God would reveal new truth to anyone below the top ministers" was, and might still be, an evangelical mantra.

I much prefer Moses' take on the matter: "And there ran a young man, and told Moses, and said, Eldad and Medad do prophesy in the camp. And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them. And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? Would God that all the LORD'S people were prophets, and that the LORD would put his spirit upon them!" KJV

To whom did David suck up in order to gain the throne?

Such memories.

Charlie brings up a very interesting subject, sin ...

2008-09-26T16:01:00.000+12:00

Charlie brings up a very interesting subject, sin and evil. Yes, God clearly makes a distinction.

Those who are truly evil may not appear to be so to other humans. That is why it is so important that judgment be left in God's hands.

ALL HUMANS SIN. I doubt that anyone here would challenge that assertion. Sin is a transgression of the law. We all have heard that many times too.

But what is evil then? There actually is a DSM definition. It is a Narcissistic Personality Disorder.

These people think the world revolves around them. They do not have empathy, and may be incapable of it. In the worst cases, they actually derive pleasure from seeing and/or causing the suffering of others. They tend to be bullies, but also are cowardly and incredibly insecure.

They may not be as "sinful" as others. And they tend to rise to positions of authority because they enjoy having power over people.

I will also add a personal observation about these people, call them what you will, evil or narcissistic. They instinctively recognize and despise people who are good, and especially those with God's Spirit.

Most importantly, we need to remember that the God...

2008-09-26T15:33:00.000+12:00

Most importantly, we need to remember that the God revealed in your Bible has the ability to exercise total power and total control of nations and individuals. “Behold, the nations are as a drop in a bucket, and are counted as the small dust on the balance; look, He lifts up the isles as a very little thing.... It is He who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers, who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them out like a tent to dwell in. He brings the princes to nothing; He makes the judges of the earth useless” (Isaiah 40:15, 22–23).
Do you believe that?

Anonymous said: "That has actually WCG's big empha...

2008-09-26T13:58:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said: "That has actually WCG's big emphasis the last couple of years - inclusion theology. That God loves all, saves all, is in all. Its plastered all over their website at www.wcg.org -- even have numerous videos and interviews with theologians in the "You're Included" section"

I have a problem with an all are saved doctrine. God has got to make distinctions between those that are simply "sinners" and those that are truly evil. As someone (I think it was Dennis) pointed out, Satan is responsible for far fewer deaths in the Bible than God...or does that turn my argument on its head?!?!

I did not have any personal interaction with either Spanky or Dick Ames during my 26 years in the church (other than enduring prerecorded sermons / WT broadcasts) but out of the pastors I had during my time, some were really caring individuals and others were monsters. Marc Masterson and Dan Bierre were good guys, Gerald Bachus became a really good guy (When I was disfellowshipped the first time for joining the US Marines, I got letters and cards from him and his wife, but no one else). Others such as Ron Reedy, Bill Swanson, and Sal Cimino were pompous power hungry a**holes. Roy Holladay's sermons were laughable (He was obsessed with downing rock and roll) and Ozzie Englebart (now deceased) was too nice of a guy in person for me to say anything derogatory about him.