Comments on Ambassador Watch: Contemporary COG

Hey all....thought I would chime in. Bill, thanks ...

2008-05-03T15:19:00.000+12:00

Hey all....thought I would chime in. Bill, thanks for the plug of my ministry, (Trinity Nation MM). For the record and the rest of you. I have attended Rock Valley Church on one occasion but my family has visited on a more frequent basis. We are not members. As my website states, as a ministry, we have no alliance with any specific church or denomination. We encourage all individuals to find their own personal walk with God. No church saves people, Christ does that so, we believe this walk must not be forced and must be personal to be real and meaningful. We are more than happy to plant a seed but the rest is up to the Holy Spirit and Christ.
This having been said, I found the Rock Valley Church to be warm and welcoming. I am surprised to see so much anger and cursing on this blog about this church. I personally am a Sabbatarian but not an ex-member of the defunct WCG. My only comment on the service I attended is, I understand the desire for some for music but there was a little too much for me the one time I attended. I felt like I was at a concert and a sermon broke out. I also understand that I was not the only one in attendance so, live and let live as this is not a salvation issue in my POV. I also understand Bill is happy to refund anyone's admission price. LOL. Regardless, the Pastor gave a riveting sermon. The people of this quaint little church seem to be genuinely wonderful, generous people who I believe truly love the Lord. I have known some of them for a couple of years and consider them fellow Christians and friends even though we do not share a common denomination. I will attend services there again if and when the opportunity presents itself. I encourage others also to give this church a try.
One last comment to the individual that signed on as "anonymous" and ended the comment as the "Apostle Paul". By definition, you can't pick grace. Grace picks you. Following the commandments is not works. It is the key to an appropriate and righteous relationship with God. May God Bless you all and richly reward you!

Weinland Watch and all:No problem. In life...timin...

2008-04-11T03:20:00.000+12:00

Weinland Watch and all:

No problem. In life...timing is everything! ;-)

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

Steve said... “You obviously missed the point that...

2008-04-10T23:00:00.000+12:00

Steve said...
“You obviously missed the point that I was trying to make. Evidently because the Abrahamic covenant came first, circumcision took precedence over the Sabbath….”

No, I understood the point you were making – however I don’t believe that it is a valid point.

You are suggesting that it’s a case of ‘circumcision taking precedence’ over the Sabbath. That just isn’t true. It’s not a question of precedence. Circumcising on the Sabbath is valid, keeping the Sabbath on the Sabbath is valid. One doesn’t conflict with the other.

Christ was making the additional point that healing on the Sabbath does not conflict with keeping the Sabbath either, in the same way that performing circumcision did not conflict with the Sabbath.

Keeping the Sabbath is not just about restrictions, although it looks like the Jews at Christ's time thought so, as does Steve at this time.

As I said in my previous post – the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

A few more from Paul Potts on YouTube:Song from de...

2008-04-10T18:16:00.000+12:00

A few more from Paul Potts on YouTube:

Song from debut album

Paul Potts Live In Copenhagen

Royal Variety Performance 2007

Can't believe all this praise for Paul Potts.He wa...

2008-04-10T16:33:00.000+12:00

Can't believe all this praise for Paul Potts.

He was such a notorious ruler of Cambodia.

Oh wait....

Questeruk said... Steve, just what are you talking...

2008-04-10T14:51:00.000+12:00

Questeruk said...
Steve, just what are you talking about?

MY COMMENT: You obviously missed the point that I was trying to make. Evidently because the Abrahamic covenant came first, circumcision took precedence over the Sabbath. This would hardly have been the case if the Sabbath regulations were, as is sometimes claimed, a creation ordinance. For then the Sabbath regulations would have taken the precedence over circumcision. And if the more important sign has been done away in Christ, why would not the lesser sign also be done away? Christ Himself (and His Spirit) becomes the sign of the New Covenant. (Isa. 7:14; Luke 2:34; 11:30; Rom. 8:9; Eph. 1:13; 4:30).

“ Steve said... I have a question for sabbatarians...

2008-04-10T12:31:00.000+12:00

“ Steve said...
I have a question for sabbatarians: If circumcision was more of a priority than sabbath-keeping(John 7:21-23), and circumcision is of no value today(Gal. 5:6), then what makes the sabbatarian think that sabbath-keeping has any value? Jesus could have told them that circumcision avails nothing, as He could have told them that sabbath-keeping avails nothing.”

Steve, just what are you talking about? Why don’t you actually read John 7:21-23?

In these verses Jesus is referring to criticism he had received for healing a man on the Sabbath. He points out that they had no problem with circumcision, which was to be carried out on the eighth day after birth, being carried out on the Sabbath. Yet they were critical of Him for doing good by healing on the Sabbath.

The obvious meaning of these verses is that Jesus is saying that just as there is no problem carrying out circumcision on the Sabbath, if it was the eighth day of the baby’s life, likewise there was no problem healing someone on the Sabbath. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. It was designed to be a blessing.

Doing good to someone, helping someone, is a different scenario to that of carrying on with your normal employment.

You don’t have to be a sabbatarian to understand what is going on in these verses - just read what the Bible says!

I posted my comment before Bill's was moderated. D...

2008-04-10T10:13:00.000+12:00

I posted my comment before Bill's was moderated. Didn't want to seem as though I was intentionally stepping on Bill's toes.

Also my apologies to Bill if you found anything about my comment offensive.

Dennis, I hadn't heard about Paul Potts. He is te...

2008-04-10T07:15:00.000+12:00

Dennis, I hadn't heard about Paul Potts. He is terrific. And then I found out that he performed in my very town on March 19. I missed it!! Oh, well... But Gavin, he is currently touring through Kiwiland. He still has Rotorua and Auckland on April 11 and 13. After that he goes on to Oz. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Potts

Tom M (not Mahon)
Edmonton, Canada

To continue looking at this from a sociological PO...

2008-04-10T06:20:00.000+12:00

To continue looking at this from a sociological POV, I notice there's a call for anyone to attend (and tithe). Is this environmentally wise given the extreme commuting involved in Exurban Los Angeles ?

Look at the address: 32,990 Mesa Drive ! Why don't they use the website to try and save the planet with a message like this: (1)"We only can accept members for our church (social club) from an area within a bicycle ride of the location" and(2)"Americans & Foreigners: Stop coming to California! What's it going to take to make you realize this is unsustainable ?" ($10/g gas, that'll do it).WWJDHHE? (What would Jesus do had he existed ?).

The women on the site's photos have the harried look of extreme commuting-double-income families. While the Leaders have the relaxed Tkach-like look of tithefarmers.

'...No sir, no disconnect here. You aren't saved b...

2008-04-10T04:50:00.000+12:00

'...No sir, no disconnect here. You aren't saved by keeping the law, but if you don't keep the law you won't keep your salvation because if you love God you'll obey him and if you don't, you don't love God and God won't allow you to rule the nations with a rod of iron if you don't love him...'

I'm sure the 'apostle' Paul pays at least lip service to the Commandments - to at least the last six.

The first four, however, define the One God, setting Him apart from all others. That's the crunch for most folk. Especially the Fearsome 4 - the seventh-day Sabbath.

Agreed Dennis. I'm a big boy who doesn't get emoti...

2008-04-10T04:35:00.000+12:00

Agreed Dennis. I'm a big boy who doesn't get emotional easy, but I welled up when I heard that guy.

I have a question for sabbatarians: If circumcisio...

2008-04-10T03:31:00.000+12:00

I have a question for sabbatarians: If circumcision was more of a priority than sabbath-keeping(John 7:21-23), and circumcision is of no value today(Gal. 5:6), then what makes the sabbatarian think that sabbath-keeping has any value? Jesus could have told them that circumcision avails nothing, as He could have told them that sabbath-keeping avails nothing.

If you are one of the few who have never seen Paul...

2008-04-10T00:33:00.000+12:00

If you are one of the few who have never seen Paul Potts go into the zone and bring down the house..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=NLF9iEXnBRo

One of humanities finest moments!

I don't think I have ever posted a post quite like...

2008-04-09T23:38:00.000+12:00

I don't think I have ever posted a post quite like this before. I may have in 2001, but this is unique...:)

My chiropractor cohort in whose facility I have my practice adjusted the entire group Def Leppard before their performance in Greenville, couple days ago.

When he is down in the dumbs or has things on his mind, I always tell hime, "You're a chiropractor...you'll adjust."

I asked him if they sang "Blessed and Happy is the Man," "Twas Not a Foe that Did Deride," or "Or Praise Ye the Lordo." He just looked at me. :)

Sadly, and of course, I was subjected to the Tkach course in "How to recognize Devil Music in God's Church,in the '80's. I never personally felt he thought it was all that big a deal but had to be dramatic on the topic.

We then went and watched "Westward Ho the Wagons," "Sound of Music" and later a concert by a braless Helen Reddy who was on drugs during the performance in God's House.

I have since come to love the music of Queen and that one great moment in human history where the little guy, Paul Potts, stormed the world of Opera. I play that youtube video when I want to feel really good!

People who were soaking in Armstrongism can come out of it just fine and have a fine church without everything being a coded message or some devious hangover that need to be scutinized to declare them of God or not. Haven't we had enough of that?

Hmm, located in the mindless exurban fringes of LA...

2008-04-09T23:33:00.000+12:00

Hmm, located in the mindless exurban fringes of LA LA Land: A sociological phenomenon not unlike the dreadful HILLSONG in Sydney's endless sprawl.

"Lussenheide said... LOL! LOL!Such paranoia from s...

2008-04-09T23:13:00.000+12:00

"Lussenheide said...
LOL! LOL!

Such paranoia from so many of you!"

I hope you realise the intent of my ‘Rock Valley Church Watch’ comment.

I felt Weinland Watch was way out of line, seeing Nazi's and 'Armstongists' under every stone (or Rock).

Gavin said... "Questeruk:Moderation is clearly sig...

2008-04-09T23:07:00.000+12:00

Gavin said...
"Questeruk:
Moderation is clearly signaled at the top right of the main blog page.
And please, no whining, pouting, ranting, winging, grizzling and groaning about "freedom of speech." ...

Or censorship! Of course you could try posting a protest on the Thiel blog..."

Hi Gavin, no offense intended. My posting had disappeared - I should have read the 'top right of the main blog page' before firing off my comment.

A lot of the comments had become more the level of the playground - so I am not against temporary moderation, probably it will bring the level of comments up a bit.

Censorship & moderation? Well, even deleting unacceptable comments is a form of censorship. The word has bad connatations, but within defined limits censorship/moderation is not neccessarily a bad thing.

I would suggest that the way you are imposing it is acceptable, and positive.

No. 78 in the purple hymnal is "He Shall Reign For...

2008-04-09T20:45:00.000+12:00

No. 78 in the purple hymnal is "He Shall Reign Forevermore!"

To each their own. I liked several of Dwight's ripoffs from the Scottish Psalter - despite their grimy Calvinist/Puritan origins - but that sure wasn't one of them ;-)

>>>Lots of kids, guitars...It is much better to se...

2008-04-09T20:28:00.000+12:00

>>>Lots of kids, guitars...<<<

It is much better to see young people enjoying themselves and singing hymns, rather than out on the town causing trouble, which is what too many young people do these days.

If these pleasant looking young people believe in any unsound doctrines, there may still have time to refine them as they grow in understanding.

Sadly, the same can't be said for the majority of those in cog-land who are set in their ways. It would take a miracle for any of them to see the light!

>>>you just know these dudes don't use the purple hymnal!<<<

Dwight Armstrong's seminal opus was composed for a more dignified form of worship; not withstanding its deconstruction by those who prefer Bach's Lutheran chorales, rather than the simple harmonic structure of the purple hymnal. Yet number 78 in the purple hymnal, is one of the greatest hymns ever written.

Good on you, Brother Bill!I'm thinking you must be...

2008-04-09T17:55:00.000+12:00

Good on you, Brother Bill!

I'm thinking you must be proud.

I'll bet your son plays a mean guitar!

I'm feeling like I've been away from music for too long.
My stereo system is in the basement, as I can't find a good place for it up here.
So, I've listened to a bunch of music on YouTube tonight, on headphones, ranging from the
Grateful Dead to Dio.

Hey for a music fix, today I got a pair of tix for an upcoming Billy Joel concert

Questeruk:Moderation is clearly signaled at the to...

2008-04-09T17:45:00.000+12:00

Questeruk:
Moderation is clearly signaled at the top right of the main blog page.

To quote from the previous thread:
Byker Bob said:

"As a biker, I am certainly not a prude. But, man! Some of the stuff being posted any more is just really juvenile. AW has always been known as a place to stimulate one's intellect. It still is, but the back and forth name calling and baiting is getting mighty tedious.

"Any suggestions as to how we can turn this situation around, and maybe get stuff flowing in a positive direction again?"

[My response] Amen brother! The solution is to go into moderation mode - at least temporarily. I tried to drop a hint with the "house rules" earlier this week... but...

And please, no whining, pouting, ranting, winging, grizzling and groaning about "freedom of speech." ...

Or censorship! Of course you could try posting a protest on the Thiel blog...

At first glance, I'd say the traditional COG's nee...

2008-04-09T16:48:00.000+12:00

At first glance, I'd say the traditional COG's need more of this. "Going younger" is an approach plenty of mega-churches use these days.

But this is the very thing the traditional COG's fear, because it looks like a big step down the slippery slope to liberalism. Yet it doesn't have to be. Show your group to be a congregation of LOVE, as God is a God of love!

When Clyde Kilough became UCG President, he gave signs he might steer The Association (to borrow from pro basketball) in this direction. He even played a rock song by "Fastball" during a sermon shown in all congregations.

Yet I fear that effort has become bogged down, in things such as the move to Texas. And I fear he's taken over hands-on control of too many things in UCG, for him to be accepted by the Elders for a second term as President.

Is this an Armstrong COG? I notice from their webs...

2008-04-09T13:32:00.000+12:00

Is this an Armstrong COG?

I notice from their website that they keep the Days of Unleaven Bread and Feast of Tabernacles. The pastors seem to have real life job experience in the real world unlike the legacy WCG and its splinters. Has Meredith, Packatollah, Flurry or Kilough ever held a real job in the real world?

Richard

LOL! LOL!Such paranoia from so many of you! I gues...

2008-04-09T13:08:00.000+12:00

LOL! LOL!

Such paranoia from so many of you!

I guess we should keep an eye on Lussenheide and Liesenfelt because they are GERMANS too! Afterall, if you are a Nazi, then you have to be a German. Therefore ALL GERMANS = NAZIS.

Folks, this is infantile thinking. Any of you are welcome to attend anytime and see for yourself. In fact, the services are going to be webcast live very shortly. David Liesenfelt is a very kind loving man, and the most righteous man I have ever known. We are very close, and I have never known the man to be on any kind of ego trip, or have any major vices of any kind. A true servant.

Yes we believe in the 10 commandments. How can one argue against them? Jesus came to save us from our sins. The power of God's spirit will produce fruit in our lives, but certainly grace is what saves us.

Weinland Watch- I will be blunt, but you are full of feces, and are quite rude with your uninformed accusations. Didnt Jesus say that we are his joint heirs, and brothers? Dont twist this into some odd Mormon Family of God construct.

We do not use YES lessons or any COG materials. The COG of the past is never addressed or thought about. More than 50% of the people there have no idea who HWA is, or was, and have no COG org background. Nearly all of the membership here are educated, self employed, and We have attendees of every race, black, hispanic, white. There is no corporal punishment administered at church and frankly this is forbidden. , Kids are allowed to have fun before and after church. We have our own playgroud, slides, monkey bars etc, and older kids toss the football or frisbee around (and I like to play too sometimes!)

Im a libertarian COG person. If it sucked there, or it was authoritarian or controlling, I assure you that Id be the first to blow out.

We have bikers visit too btw! Full fledged Harley folks, with Tats and all. Here is their website:
http://trinitynationmm.com/

Neotherm: You are incorrect. This is a non HWA church and non Armstrongism. You could consider us to be as much "Armstrong" as the Seventh Day Baptists. Being Sabbatarian does not make one "Armstrongist". Im sure the folks at the COG 7th Day, would also take great offense to such. We are sola scriptura in preaching, allowing individuals to make their own decisions according to conscience. In some fashion, I would even say that we are more like the COG 7th Day in demeanor and practice than anything that the WCG had, has or spun off.

My overall comment to the armchair critics is this...sour grapes dudes! Come on down sometime and check out the sociology for yourself. Double your money back if you dont dig it! I'll even buy you lunch afterwards!

Peace Brothers, Peace!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA