Comments on Ambassador Watch: Question of the Week - 2

"Second, of course Purple, feel free to conta...

2009-08-24T01:21:21.996+12:00

"Second, of course Purple, feel free to contact me any time, with tough questions or not I'd like to hear from you."

Thanks, Lochinvar, I will be in touch.

"The average wcg congregation had more "...

2009-08-24T01:19:38.158+12:00

"The average wcg congregation had more "little Hitlers" sitting in the audience than it had up on the stage."

Absolutely agreed. It was so bad in one of my congregations, that Headquarters used to send "liberal" (they weren't really) pastors, to try and offset the deacons we had to contend with.

I know the term "Gestapo" comes up often, but these particular super-deacons who held this particular congregation in their thrall were much more emblematic of the Nazi SS.

I could tell tales of the SS wives, namely the one who was the scourge of all the children in the congregation, and was quietly and quickly avoided by every child, as to fall under her wrath often meant to be exposed to biting, wrathful criticism no matter the age of the child.

If you caught her in a foul temper, she had no compunctions whatsoever about beating other peoples' children, who she felt had too much of "the spirit of man" in them. With the "recalcitrant" parent in question watching, so they could be properly instructed, in how to raise a child in a properly "godly" manner.

Corporal punishment was a fact of life, in this congregation, so there weren't too many children who this deaconess felt the need to wail on. Most of the liberal members didn't have children, fortunately. Unfortunately for the few families who did, I think all of us caught the back of that bitch's hand, at one point or another.

Or I could talk about the time the SS put the converted parent on trial, in a manner that made the Salem witch-hunts look like a May Day celebration. In some respects, the converted parent did deserve it. The converted parent was far from perfect as well. And we certainly would have been a hell of a lot better off, if we HAD been disfellowshipped, ten years before we ended up walking away!

On the end of it, it was between the pastor, the SS, and the converted parent, as to whether or not our place in the World Tomorrow would be in the Kingdom, or the Lake of Fire.

I can laugh it off now, at how silly it all was, but at the time, it truly did feel as though our eternal lives were hanging in the balance. While the SS got off on their small-minded and petty machinations of power and control.

So, yeah, the lay-ministry were far, far worse, than even the worst ministers I've had. (With the possible exception of Neil Earle, who is now almost laughably toothless; he and Richard Pinelli used to be referred to as "the Gestapo twins" or alternately, "the scourge of Toronto".)

That's not to say the pastors were perfect peaches, by any means, either. Especially not since all of my former pastors are now jumping up and down on the bandwagon for Jebus. Not out of any kind of true trinitarianism however; they're just hanging on for their pensions. Which it looks like they might not even get, after all these years.

While Dennis feels it is wrong for me to be happy at that prospect, and I acknowledge that holding on to such a negative sentiment probably only does me more harm, than the recipients of my ire, I stand by my belief that that is the least those pastors deserve.

Even if they were "liberal" or "moderate" and didn't open peoples' cupboards, or disfellowship people for looking at them the wrong way, they still looked the other way, as their deacons and deaconesses did the dirty work for them.

If the random musings above sound negative, or the b-word, please don't take them as such. They are statements of fact. I've actually been thinking of some of the good times I had as a kid, lately. There were some highlights, it wasn't wall-to-wall evil 24/7, hardly. I've reached an equanimity with it all, the above notwithstanding.

That said, I've little problem with telling the truth, where the truth is due.

The Skeptic asked, "Did anyone besides me not...

2009-08-23T19:45:23.427+12:00

The Skeptic asked, "Did anyone besides me notice how the large amount of "churning" that seemed to constantly go on in the church. There seemed to be a permanent cadre of long-timers, but there was also a constant flow of people leaving and new people entering."

One Sabbath in or around 1976, our local minister in England started his sermon like this:

"A man who recently left the Church said to me: 'It seems to me that the Church of God is like a sort of tube. People come in one end, move along inside, and then drop out the other end.' So my question to you today is: If Christ came back tomorrow, would YOU be 'in the tube'?!"

He was also the only minister I ever knew who preached a (non-allegorical) sermon on The Song of Solomon, and another devoted to the life and work of Mother Teresa of Calcutta with quotations that I still remember to this day:

"... make them feel wanted because they're people";

"Let no one come to you without going away better and happier."

It's a pity he didn't have a wider audience, but I'll always be grateful for his influence on my life.

Basically, I think we've isolated our abusers:...

2009-08-23T10:53:18.762+12:00

Basically, I think we've isolated our abusers: Idealistic Pharisees!

You could be idealistic, or you could be a pharisee. But, crash the two together, and voila! Little Adolf!

BB

"The average wcg congregation had more "...

2009-08-23T00:55:20.412+12:00

"The average wcg congregation had more "little Hitlers" sitting in the audience than it had up on the stage."

Well said!

I was as much abused by fellow "brethren" as I was by minsters. I used to wonder "what is it with these people", but I figured we all had faults and God was working with them just as he was (I erroneously thought) with me.

Power corrupts, and not just among ministers. Put a man in charge of the parking crew, and the next thing you knew he was lording it over you.

Not all. There were some in the church who were gentle souls, had love for all, and sincerely tried to live a life of giving. These individuals were a joy to be around. However, at least during my time in the church, they made up no more than 20% of the church population. They were outnumbered by the power-hungry, the disfunctional and what I call the "temporaries".

Temporaries? Did anyone besides me notice how the large amount of "churning" that seemed to constantly go on in the church. There seemed to be a permanent cadre of long-timers, but there was also a constant flow of people leaving and new people entering. I'd guess at least 1/3 of those sitting among us on any given Sabbath would only stick around 1-3 years. This might be a phenomenon worth analyzing.

The Skeptic

The Skeptic

I realize this post may not be read since much blo...

2009-08-22T17:51:01.724+12:00

I realize this post may not be read since much blogwater has been passed but I'll do it anyhow.
First, thank you Denis. I will not go back on my original evaluation and recommendation made to the dreaded Manpower Committee ... you were, and probably still are, one of the most qualified pastors of the time. Your own congregational reputation still today bears testimony to that fact. You were treated unforgivably by wcg.
Second, of course Purple, feel free to contact me any time, with tough questions or not on
ft-cb@hotmail.com I'd like to hear from you.
Third, thanks Paco. I have no idea who you are and couldn't even begin to guess! My sincere thanks also to your wife.

Mazeltov,
Lochinvar

Anon 07:16, In all the time that I have been in th...

2009-08-22T15:53:01.224+12:00

Anon 07:16,
In all the time that I have been in the Church, I have never known any members or ministers who fell into that category.

Paco,
Those of us still in the WCG/GCI are idealists. We look forward to a world without ignorance, hunger, poverty, fear, violence, and war. And we believe it is inevitable.

I too knew Lochinvar personally over several years...

2009-08-22T11:55:29.045+12:00

I too knew Lochinvar personally over several years. My wife used to babysit his wonderful daughters on many occassions. Although I have not seen him in person in many years, we have communicated from time to time. He is welcome in my home at any time.

I was not a minister but worked with many and had serveral good friends in the ministry. Some people in the ministry were very talented, compassionate people. Others were selfish, stupid jerks and some were downright sadistic.

The best people in the wcg were idealists who wanted a better world. We (and I have to include myself) wanted an end to war, hunger, suffering - no more tears, no more death. What HWA taught made sense within a certain context. I think because we all wanted so desperately for wcg to be the true church that many of us stayed far too long, being faithful, waiting for God to lead the way, rationalizing and hoping our lives away. Some of the people who stayed the longest were the most faithful - some just the most desperate, others just clinging to the money. I think people left as their own thoughts and convictions and understanding took them out of wcg over the years. All of us were under enormous psychological stress.

It is a huge error, in my opinion, to think that the members of the ministry were in any way significantly different from the rest of us in terms of personal weaknesses, character, morality, etc. The average wcg congregation had more "little Hitlers" sitting in the audience than it had up on the stage. Some of the ministers were just immature, naive, idealists guys who never really had a coherent frame of reference in which to work. Someone who could not keep his ego under control was bound to screw up royally and maybe hurt a lot of people.

In the end, everyone who was ever associated with the wcg deserves at least some of our compassion.

Mr. Locvinar, whom I know personally, is one of th...

2009-08-22T00:16:13.719+12:00

Mr. Locvinar, whom I know personally, is one of the kindest and most compassionate, well meaning human beings I had ever met in WCG. As a teen in AC we clicked and somehow, though it never came out for years, seemed to be on the same pages. He is a bit older than myself and was a minister already when I was a student. But he never seemed to fit the mold of that time which is why I recognized something that only became obvious years later.

He has also told me, and I him, of our regrets. I spent a lot of years thinking the insanity would stop and reach a homeostasis of somekind after the personalities either changed or were gone. Alas...

I do have to blame him however for telling me he promoted me into the ministry above all at "manpower meetings." For that, we shall have to come to blows..:)

"No doubt! Dennis has an insane amount of personal bravado in my opinion. :~)"

It's pain and a recognition of explanations for all things Bible one is never exposed to in a denomination of anykind. I was naive and hopeful. What you mistake for bravado is probably repressed anger that fuels the wonder of it all.

I probably have some OCD and certainly GAD (general anxiety disorder) which, while I am not happy about, at least can be addressed by being aware of it.

"You have no idea how little I think of myself, nor how much I deserve it." :)
Someone said that once and I have to work on that stuff personally. I think it's chemistry

My condolences to both Larry and Lochinvar on thei...

2009-08-21T07:38:42.873+12:00

My condolences to both Larry and Lochinvar on their recent losses.

If you are really curious email me at ft-cb@hotmail.com and we can 'take it outside'!

That offer open to anyone Lochinvar? I've got some questions, too, of a technical nature not unpleasant ones. Or I hope they won't be unpleasant!

Thanks,

Aggie

"(and it seems Anon knows me)" Sorry Lo...

2009-08-21T07:29:58.008+12:00

"(and it seems Anon knows me)"

Sorry Lochinvar: I did not mean to make you fearful. Far from it. I remembered that you had said in the comments section here on AW that you were formerly an evangelist no longer drinking the kool-aid.

"My main activity, however, was in Admin which places me firmly in, in most peoples' opinion, a corruption infested, sick and malevolent environment. I must have been blind to it I guess."

I would respectfully ask: Are you blind to it now? Were you saying in your earlier comment that Administration was somehow kinder and gentler than the field ministry? (Maybe from a pastoral perspective.) Surely you've never laid eyes on the letters sent out to the ministry about troublesome members? Or how did that work, when the hammer from Headquarters, came slamming down on the heads of the unsuspecting brethren?

"The reason I remain nameless is because I know full well any comments I make will be judged on who I am rather than on what I say. Not apologizing, just explaining!"

No doubt! Dennis has an insane amount of personal bravado in my opinion. :~)

"EVIL beings are those who derive pleasure fr...

2009-08-21T07:16:11.036+12:00

"EVIL beings are those who derive pleasure from seeing or causing the suffering of others. They are irredeemable. And the description probably cannot be applied to anyone who posts here."

What about applying that description to some of the ministers of the church posted about here, and on the other blogs, Larry? Or is that too far outside of your comfort zone to admit?

OK Embarrassing, I am happy to assuage your curios...

2009-08-21T05:17:59.307+12:00

OK Embarrassing, I am happy to assuage your curiosity about my daughters and their "professional" careers.
My oldest daughter left AC Pasadena with an AA degree (AC offered her no challenges) went on to Cal State LA for a BA and then to USC where she gained an MSW. She also graduated with no debt, having worked two jobs to do so.
My youngest daughter left then AU after four years, graduating with Highest Distinction (one of five who did so). She then decided to attend King's College, London University, where she graduated with a First Class Honours degree. She then went on to study law and is now a practising solicitor in London. Her husband has a PhD from Oxford. My oldest daughter also married a PhD.
I am very proud of my daughters and their beautiful children. As I mentioned, my wife died not too long ago and much of my daughters' success in life is down to her.
Anything else?
If you are really curious email me at ft-cb@hotmail.com and we can 'take it outside'!

Lochinvar

"after spending time at AC/AU both my daughte...

2009-08-20T08:13:51.210+12:00

"after spending time at AC/AU both my daughters left the WCG to pursue professional careers"

Lochinvar,

As PK's, I am happy your offspring did so remarkably well.

But your vague comment implies your daughters didn't graduate from AC/AU, so any workplace success they had can't be entirely attributed to attending classes at AC/AU without getting that oh so valuable Ambassador diploma.

You also pridefully mentioned they pursued "professional" careers, but didn't get down to specifying which of the professions. Not to pry, but this sometimes amounts to nothing more than resume inflation for full-time work outside of the household.

The issue as to how we regard WCG/ACOG splinter mi...

2009-08-20T08:05:09.906+12:00

The issue as to how we regard WCG/ACOG splinter ministers does surface here from time to time. Overall, I've noticed that remarks often tend towards cliched generalizations, usually erring on the side of giving no slack. I've seen former ministers viciously attacked on forums, even though they had totally repented of their Armstrongism, and were now "some of us". It's a shame. Certainly there should be the potential for redemption for all human beings, cultic ministers included.

My own personal criteria usually involves itself in how such ministers used or abused their authority. In reflecting, there certainly were those who wielded authority in a Christ-like manner. Others, I don't even have words for. As an AC student, I watched some very nice people become warped and distorted into authority-mad ogres, to be avoided at all costs. Anyone still remaining in this category is always going to be personna non grata with me.

You have to take each individual on a case by case basis. Some were sincere, and used their authority sparingly, with fear and trembling. Others were arrogant, and ran over people rough shod. I believe that what bothers most of us is that the type of authority structure in which these individuals participated is found nowhere in the New Testament, therefore rendering our entire experience as having been totally unneccessary!

I'll close with a parable of sorts. Imagine being in a crowded elevator. Suddenly, the stench of raw untreated sewer gas permeates the atmosphere. As everyone suspiciously eyeballs the persons standing around him/her, somehow an embarrassed and red-faced explanation from the rider in the little pork-pie hat that "sorry, it just slipped out" is not going to be altogether satisfying to every occupant of the elevator. Ministers, mild or otherwise, are going to need to realize that.

BB

This was one of the best topics that I have seen h...

2009-08-20T05:35:49.972+12:00

This was one of the best topics that I have seen here in a long time. It really touches all of us in one way or another, and you have to admit at least one of the answers will validate what most of us went through. Thanks for all the heartfelt answers, I am but a small fish in a big ocean of survivors, but for all the differences, I love you all, we are not alone.

Charlie wrote, "I may someday while visiting...

2009-08-20T05:31:12.568+12:00

Charlie wrote,

"I may someday while visiting my son in College (In CA) visit herbie's grave and piss all over it."

If you need precise directions to
the location of the "Great End Time
Work" (now reduced to growing grass
and the odd daisy) I can cheerfully
provide it!

ConnedNoMore

I am posting this not to defend myself but to clar...

2009-08-20T05:10:01.023+12:00

I am posting this not to defend myself but to clarify to Anonymous that I was in fact the pastor of a congregation in SoCal for five years at a time when the WCG was going through a growth spurt ... so have had quite a bit of hands on and face to face interaction with members.
My main activity, however, (and it seems Anon knows me) was in Admin which places me firmly in, in most peoples' opinion, a corruption infested, sick and malevolent environment. I must have been blind to it I guess.
The reason I remain nameless is because I know full well any comments I make will be judged on who I am rather than on what I say. Not apologizing, just explaining!

Lochinvar

Larry, Thanks for the kind response. I can see y...

2009-08-20T00:14:21.577+12:00

Larry,

Thanks for the kind response. I can see you did not mean any insult. However, a quick look at the definition of Nihilism on Dictionary.com tells me that term does not apply to me, even though I am a nonbeliever and a skeptic.

The Skeptic

I would have to vote for both Angry and Wiser for ...

2009-08-19T12:45:37.677+12:00

I would have to vote for both Angry and Wiser for the experience.

Like several others who post here I was born into the WCG and was spoonfed a bag of shit far far more damaging than the Santa Claus myth.

However, over time I am moving into the 'Wiser for the Experience' category. I only get angry about it again after spending time with my still duped parents when I relaize the have precious little time left to enjoy life, yet they persist in the armstrong nightmare.

Dennis - You were and are a good and decent human being...But I have to also agree with Purple Hymnal that you were in the minority. Some of the ministers I had were good people. But there were some bad egss as well.

Marc Masterson, Dan Biere, Ozzie Englebart, and Jim Jenkins should be counted among the good guys. Unfortunately three of those men are dead. The a**holes continue to live and I will leave them un-named...They know who they are.

We had a local elder once who was also a very good guy: Gerald B. and his wife, even when I was disfellowshipped would write to me and send cards whilst in the Marines. I'll never forget their kindness.

I met some good people as well as total and complete douchebags. Overall, it was the theology and the delivery of said theology that did the damage. I may someday while visiting my son in College (In CA) visit herbie's grave and piss all over it.

Bamboo Bends wrote some remarkable things here. H...

2009-08-19T11:00:57.754+12:00

Bamboo Bends wrote some remarkable things here. He said, "Christianity has its own premise, that the Laws given by Moses to the Israelites, have a bearing on the next life with God. And that Jesus had to die to open the way to God. Judaism does not address the life after - only the here and now. You can't logically extrapolate those writings made with that context, to another context where there is a belief in a life after death!

"To the Jew the law makes one a good Jew. To fail is to miss the mark."

I'd say, "Yes and no," to those statements. We do believe in an afterlife; that is, an afterlife is taught in traditional Judaism, but we don't legislate belief. Some believe; others don't. All are acceptable.

Since I have no knowledge of how Jesus might have opened up the door to eternity, I'll not address that topic. But Jews do constantly affirm belief in the hereafter, both during Sabbath worship and on weekdays when the Torah is read during services.

After each of the eight Torah sections read on weekly Sabbaths, this blessing is sung: "We praise you O God, Sovereign of the universe. You have given us a Torah of truth, implanting within us eternal life. We praise you O God, Giver of the Torah." (Fewer Torah sections are read on weekdays and annual holidays.)

The goal of serious Jews is to so thoroughly engross ourselves with Torah that our lives become living Torahs, ready for eternal life. Presumably the next life will be an extension of the here and now, which in fact is the only life we ever will have -- the here and now. We therefore do our best to take advantage of every moment to build prosperous, successful, healthy, joyful lives in the here and now -- forever.

Skeptic, you should not feel insulted. There was n...

2009-08-19T09:23:13.343+12:00

Skeptic, you should not feel insulted. There was no intent in that direction. Nihilism is a philosophy of extreme skepticism.

As for for thinking that you are "evil", that is absurd. EVIL beings are those who derive pleasure from seeing or causing the suffering of others. They are irredeemable. And the description probably cannot be applied to anyone who posts here.

The folks who post here, who have left the Church or joined "splinter" groups, or become atheists are not bad people. Neither are the ones they left behind. Everyone who has ever been a member of the WCG or even the other groups has demonstrated courage! It is not easy to dare to be different or even weird.

But, one thing is certain, and it was made abundantly manifest to me once again, as I went through this ordeal with my Earthly father; life is very short, temporary, like a vapor. This life is way too short to be judgmental or to partake in victimology. It will all be over soon enough.

Larry, I'm sorry you had to go through the di...

2009-08-19T00:34:22.517+12:00

Larry,

I'm sorry you had to go through the difficult process of your father's sickness and death. I buried my father eight years ago and my mother two years ago, and I know it is very difficult.

I don't mean to insult you, but I ask that you try not to insult me also. Your use of the terms "atheist" and "nihilist as if they were the same think is, frankly, insulting.

Yes, belief in an afterlife may make dealing with bereavement easier as you watch loved ones depart. But the fact that it makes dealing with death easier has no bearing on whether it is true or untrue. It only has bearing on whether we WISH it were true. If I have sincerely come to the conclusion that it just plain can't be true, does that make me an evil person in your eyes?

The Skeptic

That's an insightful passage you posted there,...

2009-08-18T23:07:29.002+12:00

That's an insightful passage you posted there, Dennis (12:25). This sentence (among others) leapt out at me:

"Lacking knowledge, we develop our own personal views on things, based on our own original stupidity."

(In my personal view, that cap certainly fits me, incidentally.)

My first instinct was to try to figure out who wrote that passage. But then it dawned on me: I don't need to know! Why should the identity (or, for that matter, the anonymity) of a writer influence my readiness to critically evaluate the substance of a serious argument on its own merits?

Each of us will have a different "take" on Gavin's question because - thank God! - we are all different. But we are all human beings. (I think that's a fairly non-controversial assertion - at least I hope it is...!)

Personally, I have never yet met a human being who has dedicated his or her life to resolutely pursuing a course of action because he/she was firmly convinced that it was WRONG. I try to keep that in mind as I reflect on my own experiences and compare notes with others who (to varying degrees) seem to be able to relate to some of the things I'm trying to express.

Back in the 1970s, I read a newspaper or magazine article by David Sheppard, who, as well as being an accomplished cricketer in his day, was for some years the Bishop of Liverpool. I wrote down a couple of excerpts at the time (I mentioned one of them in a comment on ISA some months back), and I'd like to offer them here in the context of this important discussion, as I've found these insights particularly helpful over the years:

"You cannot criticise until you have understood, and perhaps until you have loved uncritically for a while."

"...the greatest teacher is not experience. It is experience plus reflection."

Whether we like it or not (and without prejudice to other, separate issues like "whose fault it was", etc.), we were - and are - all in this together.

As my eccentric, vegetarian-going-on-vegan, spiritualist-going-on-theosophist, unity-in-diversity-promoting great-uncle used to say, "Cooperation is better than conflict". You'd better believe it. But please don't take my word for it.

Graham Buik
Brussels, Belgium

Sorry about your loss, Larry.

2009-08-18T21:48:16.383+12:00

Sorry about your loss, Larry.