Comments on Ambassador Watch: A Missive From Meeker

author@ptgbook.org said... There is a Bible prin...

2009-12-21T17:35:38.620+13:00

author@ptgbook.org said...

There is a Bible principle against speaking disrespectfully against those in authority over you. But there is also a Bible principle of seeking counsel before making a decision.

There is also a Bible principle about investigating a matter thoroughly and making a just decision. This simply does not happen in the UCG.

As for "those in authority over me," thank God those @#%&#*&^s!!! in the UCG are no longer over me and never will be ever again!!!

"And UCG governance is a democracy, not a spi...

2009-12-20T17:09:19.042+13:00

"And UCG governance is a democracy, not a spirit-led consensus."

and it is a council of evil

It has been a traditional doctrine in the Church o...

2009-12-20T16:08:51.744+13:00

It has been a traditional doctrine in the Church of God that it is wrong to openly criticize those in authority over you in front of others also under that authority, thus weakening the office and the ability of the man in that office to govern. It is probably on that basis that Joel Meeker evaluates harsh criticism in the alternative elders' forum against the administration as "unethical."

But you cannot have a democracy without the freedom to engage in that kind of critical communication. And UCG governance is a democracy, not a spirit-led consensus. Authority of those in charge, the 12-man ruling board, comes from those under that authority, the 500 ministers in UCG. But to make wise decisions about whether to vote for or against those in power, they have to be able to discuss not only the faults of those in power, but they have to be able to discuss and agree on alternative candidates if they choose to replace those in power.

There is a Bible principle against speaking disrespectfully against those in authority over you. But there is also a Bible principle of seeking counsel before making a decision. There is a contradiction, not between those two principles, which can both be followed when you have top-down government, but between those principles and democracy. You cannot have governance by ballot and follow those two Bible principles.

Wonder what would happen if Joel had to go out and...

2009-12-20T04:18:45.276+13:00

Wonder what would happen if Joel had to go out and actually get a real job?

Also, wonder if Joel's ever read the warning from Christ in Matthew 23:18: "You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are" (NIV).

Just a thought (from Trader with Style, who apparently has forever lost his Google password)

So, anyone think this latest UCG kerfuffle has any...

2009-12-20T04:03:21.387+13:00

So, anyone think this latest UCG kerfuffle has anything to do with this?

Reviewing the latest UCG Council of Elders minutes...

2009-12-19T16:59:44.529+13:00

Reviewing the latest UCG Council of Elders minutes from last week, I found this most interesting comment on a different topic:

Darris McNeely said that he cannot support the amendment either. He stated that you cannot legislate unity.

What would Mr. Meeker think of that? Would he respond that you can debate it into existence?

2009-12-19T13:40:40.317+13:00

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Bamboo_bends said... Flurry is just plain loony! A...

2009-12-19T10:39:11.116+13:00

Bamboo_bends said...
Flurry is just plain loony! As is Weinland..

All the apostles are loony - and many of the pastors and members are too.

I'm not too sure about the rest of us either...

Mickey wrote: "I loathe, hate, despise politi...

2009-12-19T10:14:07.849+13:00

Mickey wrote:
"I loathe, hate, despise politicking in general. Admittedly because I have trouble comprehending it's nuances. If it isn't straightforward you'll usually get a blank look of incomprehension from me."

I do too, Mickey!

And that's exactly WHY such "subtle nuances" enter in: the politicians can’t afford to be up-front and straightforward, because if they were, then folks would clearly understand the shenanigans they typically are up to!

2009-12-19T08:00:37.251+13:00

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Bamboo_bends wrote: "What's been bugging ...

2009-12-19T05:32:05.154+13:00

Bamboo_bends wrote:
"What's been bugging me about this story is this theme of ethics violation and him being dishonest (come-on that's bureaucrat legalese - I can name some first class liars in the COE that many ministers would confirm from years of experience!) and immoral. Who's gonna cast the first stone COE?"

Yes, I agree, Bamboo.

It reminds of a story told many years ago – when folks were complaining to long-time Senator from Arizona and 1964 right-wing presidential candidate Barry Goldwater about immorality and ethics violations in the government.

He responded by saying, “If you punished everyone guilty of immorality or ethics violations, hell, that would be 80% of Washington!” - or something similar, since I'm just paraphrasing from memory. This was later in Goldwater's carrer that he said this, and so he didn’t have to worry about being politically-correct in his statements that much any more.

If UCG leadership pointing the finger at others for immoral or ethical violations isn’t a classic case of “the pot calling the kettle black” then I don’t know what is!

There is a disconnect between what is posted and t...

2009-12-19T04:40:28.678+13:00

There is a disconnect between what is posted and the detail in the comments (e.g. posts by Bamboo_bends & Gavin).

Where are you all getting the extra information, and if this really is Ambassador "Watch" why not just post it all instead of beating around the bush and then letting comments divulge further details.

Since the comments are moderated heavily the end result from an outsider's perspective will be that the comments represent the owner's particular views. There is no point in not just making this a proper COG news blog instead of this semi-passive aggressive model we see now.

Cleaning up the church.... That phrase always had...

2009-12-19T02:53:54.762+13:00

Cleaning up the church....

That phrase always had such a nice ring to it. Made me feel secure that I wasn't living in a dirty or unkempt Church and that only the clean would be left standing.

Kinda like getting back on track. I didn't know we had gone into the ditch until I was told we were now back on track. The Engineers I think were talking to other engineer types about this problem as being a passenger only seemed to not give that impression until we were already back on the tracks again. What a smooth ride!

Perhaps the over all problem was that the tracks themselves weren't very clean, or maybe were very clean but just not going anywhere important or meaningful

Just a thought.

Thanks for your clarifying perspective Gavin:) I ...

2009-12-19T02:40:11.123+13:00

Thanks for your clarifying perspective Gavin:)

I loathe, hate, despise politicking in general. Admittedly because I have trouble comprehending it's nuances. If it isn't straightforward you'll usually get a blank look of incomprehension from me. It's also made up a few of those straws that broke the camel's back for me when choosing to leave the church after all the changes:)

"Ah...but that's not what they are tellin...

2009-12-18T23:02:02.751+13:00

"Ah...but that's not what they are telling the ministry and people. They are painting this as cleaning up the church!"

Funny, that's the same thing WCG said about PCG, when Flurry first split.....

2009-12-18T18:12:41.270+13:00

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To clarify, as I understand it... Kieffer was for...

2009-12-18T14:23:08.720+13:00

To clarify, as I understand it...

Kieffer was forced out because of his current views, and perhaps some ancient antagonisms, not because of anything morally dubious that might have happened in the past. Past events/allegations were a pretext for dumping him.

The real reasons, once you cut through the smokescreen, related to the alternate forum and the ascendancy of a new group to the leadership with less hierarchic fixations. This was/is seen as a threat by the old guard.

To be distracted by what one e-mailer calls "the dirt" is to miss the point entirely, and play into the hands of those involved in some pretty nasty politicking.

At least, that's the view from my spot in the bleachers.

2009-12-18T12:04:07.192+13:00

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Note: Paul didn't resign because of this foru...

2009-12-18T10:31:25.098+13:00

Note:

Paul didn't resign because of this forum. The forum has been a bone of contention for a long time now.

Something else entirely caused the resignation. Some other dirt was dug up that wasn't based in dubiously interpreted bylaws.

By focusing on the forum you're all distracted by the glittering shiny spin and aren't asking about the dirt.

To our fellow Posters with complaints about being ...

2009-12-18T06:25:49.681+13:00

To our fellow Posters with complaints about being “Censored” here by the wicked moderator:

Please keep in mind that coming to a moderated forum is much like knocking the door of a residence with a welcome sign out front, and then whining because the owner doesn’t allow smoking , drinking, or what ever vice you happen to like and don’t see why it is offensive to anyone else. You are a guest, and there of your choosing .

My overall observing here ,is that many of us posters spend far too much “time and words” in expressing OUR prospective and way too little introspective in evaluating how these words play out in the in the ears and minds of people with a different frame of reference . The exchange of insults both personal and ideology do nothing to add to the point and in the long run have the opposite result .

The idea here, as I understand it is a free flow of information and prospective of posters and readers with a somewhat common background thread . Our moderator has the difficult and thankless task of trying to keep this flowing , while also trying to have a real life apart from this forum.

This is not a total summation but I hope the point is made.

We as contributors have the simple task of making this as easy for our moderator as possible before he shuts the whole thing down and gets a life.

Thanks

Wess

Noticed that Paul Kieffer was called out specifica...

2009-12-18T05:42:09.769+13:00

Noticed that Paul Kieffer was called out specifically. Is JM trying to put another nail in the coffin or is this related to the aforementioned "Waddle Incident"?

Also, is he ticked because he wasn't asked to play in the sandbox too?

It really is a shame, but so very unlikely that JM will try to see the reasons for an alternative forum. Most likely he, and those of his ilk will see it as a place to foment rebellion. But they never ask, why do people feel the need to rebel (and I'm not talking the old standby of the Devil made 'em do it.) Could it be that some of them needed a place where they didn't feel so oppressed?

Since Gavin used the word petulance, I just had to...

2009-12-18T03:52:44.138+13:00

Since Gavin used the word petulance, I just had to share this definition:

petulant - cranky: easily irritated or annoyed; "an incorrigibly fractious young man"; "not the least nettlesome of his countrymen"
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Here's a great idea...Joel should take his inv...

2009-12-18T03:50:11.240+13:00

Here's a great idea...Joel should take his investigative skills and reach out to the many, many elders and members who have left UCG and find out why...then maybe he and his cronies can figure out how to fix things!! Oh, I forgot...THEY are the answer people...and the ones who rule...they already have all the answers...it's all those rebellious folks who won't put themselves under Joel and friends authority who are the REAL problem...NOT!!!

"Le Canard enchaîné" Quack Watch?? Me l...

2009-12-17T23:32:34.570+13:00

"Le Canard enchaîné"

Quack Watch?? Me likey!

"....goons like Meeker running around taking ...

2009-12-17T23:30:58.596+13:00

"....goons like Meeker running around taking names and then tattle-taling to ministerial services, who then often threatens them with termination and disfellowshipment."

Translation: Nothing has changed!