Comments on Ambassador Watch: Complete Journal Issue Online

yes i realize that it's not the proper way to ...

2009-10-15T18:58:51.165+13:00

yes i realize that it's not the proper way to write, so just look at it as my style ;-)

to clarify my position concerning money grubbers, i do feel anger when anyone is taken advantage of. it's not right and i don't like it, but i know it's part of life. the taker bears some of the blame, but so does the takee.

the world is a confused place, and i don't see the situation improving at the present time.

it's easier to understand the TBN crowd taking people's money under false pretenses (although they could be as sincere as the day is long about what they're doing), but one would assume that folks like Rod & Ron know better, but then again, how do we know that they are really any different from the TBN'rs? (they too could be as sincere as the day is long about what they do) we can only judge the actions, not the heart.

maybe that's why were told to "prove all things", and to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"...

You did good Anon. until you came down to that las...

2009-10-14T19:24:28.353+13:00

You did good Anon. until you came down to that last innuendo.

Oh, and by the way, the pronoun "I" should be capitalized.

well Corky, actually.....their homes (Rod's &a...

2009-10-14T02:50:11.584+13:00

well Corky, actually.....their homes (Rod's & Ron's) look just like some in my neighborhood. the one across the street looks a lot like Rod's.

i've never been one to check my brain at the door though. i can read and i know what God says to do, and i do it to the best of my ability. God has blessed us greatly.

we don't dwell on money. we are very generous toward those in need. we give a more than God's minimum requirement to the Church as well, but we don't cough up cash every time it's suggested. (which, thankfully, is rare in our organization)

we understand that the Church leadership is composed of men, and they can make mistakes, so we don't take their every word as gospel. if they are suffering a budget shortfall it's most likely due to their own mistakes with the funds they have available.

we're not trying to buy our way into the kingdom by kissing up to anyone. money grubbers like Rod and Ron, and Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar, and the rest of the scam artists really chap my cheeks.

we just use common sense. i think most Church members do too. (the man follower is a different story, however)

Anonymous said... I'll be sure that my house i...

2009-10-13T08:54:59.408+13:00

Anonymous said...
I'll be sure that my house is never a nicer one (or, even as nice) as Rod's. That way I'll never feel guilty of living too high while others are suffering.

Hey! Good idea. However, I bet you don't have to worry about that though, right?

I'll be sure that my house is never a nicer on...

2009-10-12T15:35:52.730+13:00

I'll be sure that my house is never a nicer one (or, even as nice) as Rod's. That way I'll never feel guilty of living too high while others are suffering.

"Does anyone here have any link to anything t...

2009-10-12T10:02:42.782+13:00

"Does anyone here have any link to anything that would show absolute audio of HWA making the statement it was ok to use 2nd Tithe as an offering... would help clear up a few things in my mind..."

So what are you trying to do, my fellow anonymous? Do you want to prove Herbie right and Junior wrong? Or are you hoping we will prove Junior right and Herbie wrong?

Break out of the box, anon 2:06! Neither one of them deserves the attention!

"But, in all honesty, we have tried to run a ...

2009-10-11T02:12:08.948+13:00

"But, in all honesty, we have tried to run a “lean” operation and do not have any extravagance that I am aware of."

New studio for LU? Was it a necessity, or would the old one used for a few years served a purpose? When does being #1 at any cost (he got a school, so i need one too...) running a lean operation...?

"Also, brethren, as Mr. Armstrong stated a nu...

2009-10-11T02:06:56.249+13:00

"Also, brethren, as Mr. Armstrong stated a number of times, we do want the brethren to know that it is all right to give any of their “excess” second tithe as Feast offerings—especially as part of the final Feast offering..."

Growing up in WCG and becoming a member many years ago, I recall HWA stating that 2nd Tithe was specifically for the Feasts, not to be used as an offering. I remember Joe Tkach (the one you can tell is lying by when his mouth is moving) stating that HWA said it was ok. Does anyone here have any link to anything that would show absolute audio of HWA making the statement it was ok to use 2nd Tithe as an offering... would help clear up a few things in my mind...

Anonymous 1:38 wrote: "You know, I really don...

2009-10-10T05:03:02.745+13:00

Anonymous 1:38 wrote:
"You know, I really don't know why you've been such an apologist for Herman in the last couple posts, Leonardo."

How have I been an "apologist" for Dr. Hoeh? I just thought I'd relay a couple of accounts regarding him. I don't worship the man or anything, like Flurry tends to worship HWA's memory.

No doubt Dr. Hoeh had his faults - as we all do. I don't contend the fact.

In many ways he was caught up in the whole HWA ponzi scheme like the rest of us - and as a high-ranking minister undoubtedly did his share of harm through the years. And in no way do I try to defend this side of him.

But really, he did have some very wonderful traits of character as well. And this is what I tend to focus on and remember about him.

All the role-models I tend to look up to in my life like Leonardo da Vinci, George Washington, Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, etc. – all had terrible faults. But I don’t allow those faults to take away from what their examples can teach us and thereby enrich our lives by.

We both got quite a chuckle out of that wry statem...

2009-10-09T13:38:25.170+13:00

We both got quite a chuckle out of that wry statement, delivered in classical Dr. Hoeh form!

I miss his wonderful Lincoln-like sense of humor. You had to love the guy!

You know, I really don't know why you've been such an apologist for Herman in the last couple posts, Leonardo. For a more balanced view of Hoeh's (many many many many) shortcomings and failings as a minister of misery, read this (courtesy of James at the Painful Truth, main article linked on the AW entry "The Haj").

Years ago back in the ‘80’s I was standing once be...

2009-10-08T08:46:47.796+13:00

Years ago back in the ‘80’s I was standing once behind Dr. Hoeh as we were both making our way through a pot-luck line one day after a church service.

After scanning over the food on offer he looked back at me, and said with a smile, "Well, now we know why the men in the Church tend to die sooner than the women!"

We both got quite a chuckle out of that wry statement, delivered in classical Dr. Hoeh form!

I miss his wonderful Lincoln-like sense of humor. You had to love the guy!

About those potlucks -- I heard SDA media minister...

2009-10-08T07:44:12.601+13:00

About those potlucks -- I heard SDA media minister Doug Bachellor say one day potlucks are a sign of people's faith.

After all, you're willing to eat other people's food. :-)

The Apostate Paul wrote: "The leadership of e...

2009-10-07T10:56:40.239+13:00

The Apostate Paul wrote:
"The leadership of each group views the other groups as one-time fellow workers who fell aside and now dwell in some sort of iniquity, disrupting "unity" and The Work."

Yes. I would often bring up the fact that ALL the various COG splinter groups essentially believed in, and were devoted to, the SAME identical major doctrines.

But the pastor in that last congregation I attended always referred to other groups outside of the one he was a paid, full-time minister within as groups "to one degree or another in varying degrees of error."

Although I’ve found the actual MEMBERS to be more open to talking to folks outside of the particular group they currently attend with (at least for the most part), the ministry show little such willingness.

Leonardo said... As I look back, there were many ...

2009-10-07T09:18:30.979+13:00

Leonardo said...

As I look back, there were many times during my time in the COG’s when subtle red warning flags began (metaphorically) waving inside my mind, but the teaching of the COG’s (which I took VERY seriously)is to interpret the natural voice of reason as satanic or demonic in nature, and thus as something to be resisted and extinguished.

They start that programming early, with the verse "the heart is deceitful above all things". From there, a person is disconnected from both common sense and natural intuition. You're in serious trouble when you start ignoring your emotional heart. Another example of the dangers of literalizing poetic imagery. Just imagine what they'd do with Edgar Allen Poe if he was included in the Bible!

This is how they manage to maintain such mental strangleholds on members, as dampening the flickering flame of reason and rationality just becomes part and parcel of the overall lifestyle, which is most often referred to as “God’s way of life.”

Well, it is their god's (HWA) way of life isn't it? Its a lie. That God's government rot. God is not Pol Pot in the sky!

In reality, it’s a way of death, not life.

Exactly!!!!

You dive head first into life. You don't wall yourself up into sectarian ghettos like Pasadena, Big Sandy, Cincinnati or the virtual ghetto of the saved and unsaved. They all talk about letting their light shine but the first thing they do is put the bushel basket over their lives.

The whole meme of Armstrongism is about saving your skin from the fury of God's wrath to come on humanity. Yet Jesus said "Whoever seeks to keep his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

In other words, life is a bit like fruit, it has a shelf life. If you don't eat it, it rots. Get on with living don't waste the life you've been given. None of us knows when our next breath will end.

"To this day I still can’t understand this no...

2009-10-07T08:50:17.334+13:00

"To this day I still can’t understand this non-response."

I take it you were attending a non-LCG congregation, and if so, it's easy to explain.

The majority of the COG's (the main groups-UCG, LCG, PCG, ect) do not officially recognize each other in a sense. They are all competing with each other, and in many cases the leadership are very antagonistic and suspicious of each other. The leadership of each group views the other groups as one-time fellow workers who fell aside and now dwell in some sort of iniquity, disrupting "unity" and The Work. To them, the other competing groups do not exist outside of the boardrooms. The ministers do not speak of the competition to the laity except only in vague, critical terms. At the coffee urn or at the dinner table it's quite all right. But not during services.

At least, this was the way it was in GTA's ICG and in the few LCG services I attended. The ministry of the COG are like men who went to West Point together, fought alongside each other in some great war, and now find themselves at the head of separate armies in a terrible civil war.

And if you were in a LCG congregation, then it's even easier to understand. You don't discuss such things with the enlisted men (or the servants, or the children); it's bad for morale.

The Apostate Paul

Bamboo_bends continues: “…the COGs never valued re...

2009-10-07T05:19:30.569+13:00

Bamboo_bends continues:
“…the COGs never valued relationships, they broke up families over D&R, and they still break up families and friends over differences in doctrines or even more silly - leadership affiliations.”

Unfortunately, this is another truism about COG culture – it’s extremely fragmented and fissured in nature.

I remember many years ago reading a book (I think it was called “The Secrets of Strong Families”) that mentioned one factor about strong, solid, successful extended family units was how they tended to slowly accept into the family new members (in-laws from marriage, etc.) yet were very protective of such once they were accepted in, and very hesitant to let these people drift away and outside the orbit of the larger family. Whereas weak, failure-oriented families were just the opposite, they brought people in very quickly and haphazardly, yet very much resembled leaky buckets, in that what came in the bucket tended to drain out about as fast.

The sieve-like COG’s very much fit this latter description.

Bamboo_bends concluded:
“If only my journey through the organization was that quick and that easy to see. It took me 34 years.”

Well, I wasn’t exactly a quick learner either – having spent 20 years in the WCG, 3 years in UCG, and 7 years in David Hulme’s group (COG-AIA). But then again, we must consider the stultifying and stifling effects that 30+ years of fundamentalist religion has on the human mind. Let us be grateful that many (including ourselves) somehow found a way to escape such mental imprisonment.

But that’s the nature of fundamentalist religion: it doesn’t promote critical thinking, it doesn’t promote wide reading, it doesn’t promote REAL education, and so overall it tends to have an asphyxiating effect on the mind. As I look back, there were many times during my time in the COG’s when subtle red warning flags began (metaphorically) waving inside my mind, but the teaching of the COG’s (which I took VERY seriously) is to interpret the natural voice of reason as satanic or demonic in nature, and thus as something to be resisted and extinguished.

This is how they manage to maintain such mental strangleholds on members, as dampening the flickering flame of reason and rationality just becomes part and parcel of the overall lifestyle, which is most often referred to as “God’s way of life.”

In reality, it’s a way of death, not life.

Bamboo_bends wrote: "This is not uncommon in ...

2009-10-07T05:15:50.874+13:00

Bamboo_bends wrote:
"This is not uncommon in America in general. We do not process death well."

Yes, you are absolutely right. In many other cultures, death is both taught and understood from youth as a natural part of the cycle of life.

But Americans (along with many other western nations), who have developed into an extremely successful society in terms of material comforts and security, tend to be very squeamish about many of the realities of physical existence. As you point out, the ugly realities of WWII, Korea, Vietnam, and the more recent conflicts in the Middle East, no doubt have played a role. But I also think a lot of this “run away from reality” mindset was triggered by the move from an agrarian culture, where folks are directly exposed to the natural cycles of birth, the wonder and fragility of life, sickness and death every day. Whereas industrial societies tends to shelter people from such things, and thus they seem more frightening than they need to be.

Bamboo_bends also wrote:
“I remember my own parents refusing to let me go with them to a funeral. But kids should know about death.”

Agreed. A lot of parents do this as they reason that they are somehow protecting young and impressionable minds. As I’ve learned from hindsight, my experience was very different. My parents were in their 40’s when they had me (their third and last son), and so as a young child I attended many funerals for much older relatives. I also always had little pets, and these pets eventually died, which was a great (though sobering) lesson for a young mind to learn. My dad and mom never tried to shield me from the reality of death, and they sat me down and tried to explain it to me as best they could – which, from the perspective of an adult, I greatly appreciate now. In fact, both my parents were dead by the time I was 21 years old, so this too has a way of forcing one to confront and deal with the realities of life, and death. Each has their season, and a wise person has to humbly and appropriately respond to both.

Perhaps that’s why I reacted the way I did when the ministry in the local COG congregation I was attending acted so coldly the week after Ratzmann did his atrocious thing up in Wisconsin, as if nothing had happened. This was WAY beyond denial – it was eerie, icy, unfeeling, bizarre and completely inappropriate considering the context.

To this day I still can’t understand this non-response. And then the next day on the telephone the pastor actually tried to defend it!

Bamboo_bends further wrote:
“Pretending it didn't happen is an insult to the dead and their survivors.”

Absolutely right. For example, what if you lost a close family member (a mate, a child, a sibling, a parent, or whomever) to a sudden and unexpected tragedy, and the next time you saw one of your close friends they came up and acted as if absolutely nothing had happened (even though they fully knew of the death) and started frivolously talking about sports or cars or work or anything but the loss you had just sustained. I’m quite certain 99.9% of people would consider that kind of non-response to be pretty weird, inappropriate and totally insensitive behavior on the part of the friend.

But not among certain COG ministers – who apparently would think that behavior somehow normal. I realize the vast majority of COG ministers would not react this way, but the fact that SOME would (and actually DID) is still beyond my comprehension.

Leonardo, My appologies. I mispoke. I did mean ...

2009-10-07T01:26:00.054+13:00

Leonardo,

My appologies. I mispoke. I did mean the minster's handling of the congregation. I think I was thinking in terms of congregation corporate rather than congregation attendees (if that makes sense)

I don't doubt the horror and pain felt by everyone touched by the tragedy.

Mickey said.. The communities who left crosses an...

2009-10-06T16:20:09.784+13:00

Mickey said..

The communities who left crosses and flowers cared more about the people in LCG than their own leaders.

Well said! Its the cross cringing LCG'ers that need to consider who followed in the steps of Jesus that day!

Leonardo said... It was a terrible event, and wha...

2009-10-06T11:56:56.536+13:00

Leonardo said...

It was a terrible event, and what upset me was how heartless and clueless the local elder was that next Sabbath in giving the announcements and the sermon that day in my congregation in Colorado (a week after the shooting) and didn't even mention the tragedy, not once, and gave a totally inappropriate sermon considering the terrible event that had just recently taken place within the wider COG community.

This is not uncommon in America in general. We do not process death well. I think it started after WWII when all the GIs came back from such horrible warfare (and we've been in war pretty much off and on since then). The returning men shielded children from death, I remember my own parents refusing to let me go with them to a funeral. But kids should know about death.

If a person doesn't know what to say to a grieving person, they can alway say "I'm sorry for your loss".

Pretending it didn't happen is an insult to the dead and their survivors.

I've had a half dozen relatives and friends die in recent years. Its never easy. But it is part of life. And it has a way of refocusing a person on the importance of relationships. Of course the COGs never valued relationships, they broke up families over D&R, and they still break up families and friends over differences in doctrines or even more silly - leadership affiliations.

I walked out that day of the COG I had been attending for the past seven years - and never returned, never looked back, and never regretted it.

GOOD ON YOU! That's why I now longer worry for friends still caught up in that stuff, I know, sooner or later, that their leaders will show them what they really are - its inevitable.

The pastor of the congregation I had been attending called me up via telephone the next day (Sunday), very angry.

I asked him politely, yet point blank, "Mr. So & So, are you telling me that, given the context, and the fact that this terrible occurance had just taken place the previous Sabbath up in Wisconsin, and thus was obviously on EVERYBODY's mind that day, that you don't think it was just a little bit odd that absolutely NOTHING about it was ever once mentioned during the official service?"

He paused and arrogantly responded with these EXACT words, "No, I do not." And then went on to correct me on how I was in conflict with God's Government, or some such nonsense.

Pulling imaginary God-bestowed rank upon the membership is not working like it used to. Those men are responsible for what they teach, and they better learn to face the music.

That whole unpleasant situation was all I needed to see that I no longer belonged nor fit in, either in that particular congregation, nor in any other congregation in the wider COG community.

If only my journey through the organization was that quick and that easy to see. It took me 34 years.

Mickey wrote: "It says a lot that a COG congr...

2009-10-06T08:43:45.582+13:00

Mickey wrote:
"It says a lot that a COG congregation would try to sweep the incident under the rug by pretending to "business as usual."

But just to clarify with an important distinction, Mickey: the CONGREGATION itself was indeed very upset at the tragedy, and showed the understandable human sympathy which such a tragedy would normally evoke, and which was perfectly appropriate in that context.

It was the MINISTRY that was so cold and uncaring, not the majority of the members.

That experience not only shocked me to the very core of my being, but it greatly angered me.

As a result of the absolute hardheartedness I witnessed on that day on the part of certain “men of God” they lost forever a long-time member (30+ years) who up to that time had been a dedicated, financially generous, service-oriented, authority-respecting, loyal and passionate supporter of the COG, and turned him into an eternal enemy of the kind of ideology that gave rise to such hardness of heart and lack of sympathy in the first place.

On that day I did not become insanely bitter - only totally realistic.

It makes me sick to hear how the congregation to w...

2009-10-06T01:45:13.588+13:00

It makes me sick to hear how the congregation to which Leonardo refers was handled by its pastor after the shooting

While the scale between 9/11 and the Ratzman shootings were different the horror wasn't.

When 9/11 happened many of the churches opened their doors for people to go to come together in prayer and grief. Hopefully to be as comforted as one can be in such horrific circumstances.

It says a lot that a COG congregation would try to sweep the incident under the rug by pretending to "business as usual". I understand that denial is an aspect of grief but it says volumns about how little leadership considered the pain of the people they were supposed to be shepherding.

The communities who left crosses and flowers cared more about the people in LCG than their own leaders.

Bamboo_bends, no - I didn't mean to imply that...

2009-10-05T04:59:36.031+13:00

Bamboo_bends, no - I didn't mean to imply that I was in Ratzmann's congregation when the shooting took place.

I was talking about being in ANOTHER congregation, in ANOTHER state, in ANOTHER COG group, the Sabbath AFTER the shooting had taken place a week earlier up in Wisconsin.

But there were folks in my congregation (in Colorado) who knew some of the victims, and, many years before, in Texas, I had once had dinner at the house of the pastor and his wife whom Ratzmann targeted.

It was a terrible event, and what upset me was how heartless and clueless the local elder was that next Sabbath in giving the announcements and the sermon that day in my congregation in Colorado (a week after the shooting) and didn't even mention the tragedy, not once, and gave a totally inappropriate sermon considering the terrible event that had just recently taken place within the wider COG community.

I walked out that day of the COG I had been attending for the past seven years - and never returned, never looked back, and never regretted it.

The pastor of the congregation I had been attending called me up via telephone the next day (Sunday), very angry.

I asked him politely, yet point blank, "Mr. So & So, are you telling me that, given the context, and the fact that this terrible occurance had just taken place the previous Sabbath up in Wisconsin, and thus was obviously on EVERYBODY's mind that day, that you don't think it was just a little bit odd that absolutely NOTHING about it was ever once mentioned during the official service?"

He paused and arrogantly responded with these EXACT words, "No, I do not." And then went on to correct me on how I was in conflict with God's Government, or some such nonsense.

That whole unpleasant situation was all I needed to see that I no longer belonged nor fit in, either in that particular congregation, nor in any other congregation in the wider COG community.

That was it for me.

Maryann said... "Let the ministry take p...

2009-10-04T12:53:31.348+13:00

Maryann said...

"Let the ministry take pay cuts or sell their half million dollar homes."

I just listed Meredith's home "FOR SALE"!

I hope he appreciates this!

Leonardo said... Surely if anything was on the co...

2009-10-04T11:04:01.385+13:00

Leonardo said...

Surely if anything was on the collective mind of most COG members as they came together for the first time since the March 12th shooting, it was that horrific event. Yet no mention whatsoever was made of it; from the opening prayer, to the sermonette, to the announcement portion, through the main sermon itself and the closing prayer — nothing was ever spoken of it, not one word, as if not discussing the sad event would somehow make the horror of it magically disappear.

Did I understand your post correctly? Were you in Ratzlaff's congregation?