Comments on Ambassador Watch: Jesus as Mussolini

Yep, I attended a church where Aust was a pastor a...

2008-09-25T15:14:00.000+12:00

Yep, I attended a church where Aust was a pastor and he certainly was mind-numbing back then in his own inanity.

If the Good News continues using him as a contributor, they are doomed.

"I'm not averse to visiting other congregations, m...

2008-09-18T12:29:00.000+12:00

"I'm not averse to visiting other congregations, mind you. In fact, it's fun."

I think the more telling question, or rather the more telling answer, would be, but are you allowed to?

C'mon Libro, you don't honestly expect us to believe that Spanky would be perfectly OK with one of his tithe-slaves congregation-shopping, now do you?

"It's just that most of the local COG congregations within driving distance are, shall we say, even less desirable than the local LCG group at this time."

Now that is truly a frightening thought.......

"....those who may still be “true believers” .... who visit and read the comments made on this site."

Here's what I want to know; if they really are "true believers" what are they doing here in the first place? Surely your pastard's "proactive" approach to your reported "indiscretions" suggests that, if there are any "true believers" lurking here (unlike the ones who just do drive-by "You've rejected GAWD'S TROOOOO CHOOOOOORCH!" shootings), the only reason they're here, as demonstrated by your pastard's proactive reaction, is to flush out any currently attending tithe-slaves who may be acting in an "ungawdly" manner.

Which just reinforces the need for anonymity, IMO.

"...share with me their real, heart-felt views that they could NEVER express out loud in their local congregations for fear of the consequences."

The sad thing is, that doesn't raise any red flags for them. :-(

Finally, it's interesting to note the relevant passages quoted from Mein Kampf, in combination with what I personally can recall of the church's "teachings". (Yes I use that term loosely.)

Of all the "knowledge" and "understanding" Armstrongism promises to its dewy-eyed fresh-faced new recruits to tithe slavery, nowhere at any point do I recall any of the church's indoctrinations or literature ever referring to wisdom.

Telling, that.

Herbert's had a grandiose understanding about his ...

2008-09-16T11:25:00.000+12:00

Herbert's had a grandiose understanding about his prophetic calling and his only true church:

"Thus it may happen that for centuries many are discontented with the form in which their religious life expresses itself and yearn for a renovation of it; and so it may happen that through this impulse of the soul some dozens of men may arise who believe that, by virtue of their understanding and their knowledge, they are called to solve the religious difficulties of the time and accordingly present themselves as the prophets of a new teaching or at least as declared adversaries of the standing beliefs.
Here also it is certain that the natural law will take its course, inasmuch as the strongest will be destined to fulfill the great mission. But usually the others are slow to acknowledge that only one man is called."
Mein Kampf
Vol Two-1926
Chapter VIII: The Strong Man is Mightiest Alone

F.J. Strauss

Anonymous 4:42, it is not a swift boat attack to ...

2008-09-16T05:24:00.000+12:00

Anonymous 4:42, it is not a swift boat attack to acknowledge that 99%of Armstrongism was nailed to the cross at Calvary.

We are very fortunate today to have available much mind-blowing research, really deep scriptural study involving original Koine Greek words, etc, yet most Armstrongites are so fixed in their own dogma that they will not even read or remotely consider it. This becomes painfully obvious in the comment section on some of the blogs where this information is published. Rather than refute the information which has just been presented, Armstrongites post cliched comments, such as "How can you say you love God when you don't keep His sabbath and holy days?"

They even criticize us for referring to the OT holy days as Jewish, yet St. John himself did this throughout his gospel. John 5:1, 6:4, and 7:2 would be the most obvious scriptural examples this.

There are some terms that come to mind every time this topic comes up. "Plausable deniability", or "willingly ignorant" are two that come to mind. Yet, those would be some of the lynchpins on which Armstrongism turns. During my tenure as an Armstrongite, we were forbidden to read or examine the theological teachings of anyone outside of the group. That alone speaks volumes. What were they so afraid of?

BB

For years I’ve been posting as “Anonymous,” but si...

2008-09-16T04:41:00.000+12:00

For years I’ve been posting as “Anonymous,” but since this can sometimes be confusing, I’ve decided to accept the constructive correction offered by some of you in this recent page of comments.

From now on you may all refer to me as "Leonardo" – a name simply based on one of my all-time heroes, and one of the greatest minds of history, Leonardo Di Vinci.

Yes, it is indeed a pseudonym – but not because I’m in any way afraid to use my real name. For years I unashamedly used my actual name always and without exception on the many posts I made to Gavin’s original website (Ambassador Watch), from which this blogsite is descended.

But the end result of my honesty there was that many sincere people became hurt and offended by what I had to say, plus I ended up essentially being forced out of the COG splinter group I had faithfully attended and supported for many years.

Imagine that - after over 30 years of being a faithful, service-oriented, financially-generous and dedicated member, AC student and WCG Headquarters employee, who never ONCE got into any kind of trouble with “the powers that be” for any misconduct or questionable behavior on my part whatsoever - and all the local pastor (in the American state I was then living in) could point to in our final meeting was a manilla folder with my name printed on it in bold, black, capital letters, filled with all the Internet posts I had made on Ambassador Watch that another member had informed him of and had printed out, as evidence that I was “attacking the Church.”

From the bottom of my heart I frankly confess to all of you that for over three decades I was a sincere, whole-hearted “true believer” in the teachings of the classic WCG and supporter of it’s “Work” – and those who knew me through the years perceived me in that way. I can thankfully say that all my years spent out in Pasadena both as a student at the college and an employee of the Church I enjoyed a good reputation, being generally well-liked and respected by my fellow members and co-workers.

So that’s why I now use the pseudonym of “Leonardo” – because I still very much feel not only the need, but the responsibility, to express my views and observations about the WCG and it’s many offshoots based on my years of up-close experience with them, yet to be able to do so without hurting or causing offense in any way to those who may still be “true believers” (of which I count many as dear and long-time friends) who visit and read the comments made on this site.

And let me assure you all, in case there’s any doubt, there are MANY such people who do frequent this site – more than most of us can imagine. I’ve had MANY current members, ministers, former AC students, ex-employees, etc., that I’ve known through the years (and still know and keep in contact with) share with me their real, heart-felt views that they could NEVER express out loud in their local congregations for fear of the consequences.

So to our faithful host and originator of this site, Gavin Rumney of New Zealand, and to all of you around the world who take the time out of your busy lives to thoughtfully express relevant and intelligible comments here – your words and insights regarding your experiences are having a positive and liberating impact on those still in the stranglehold of WCG-style fundamentalist religion.

I do still believe that ultimate, eternal truths exist – as well as an Author of them all - and that they are worth searching for, and harmonizing our lives with. But I’m sorry to say that very few are to be found being taught and lived by with any kind of passion anymore within the dank, stifling and dying environments of the various and sundry COG’s.

Anonymous 4:42 wrote:"Right... the religious right...

2008-09-16T03:25:00.000+12:00

Anonymous 4:42 wrote:

"Right... the religious right has dominated politics since the accent [sic - perhaps you meant ascent?] of Ronald Reagan has tried to "swift boat" anything it does not agree with. You dear friend are acting as one of their surrogates. They would be very pleased."

Once again, you have completely drifted away from the original topic of discussion in the desperate attempt to AVOID addressing the specific comments I made in Anonymous 3:27. When will you COGer's learn that using ad hominem accusations and assertions without any proof will never get you anywhere with anybody? – well, at least outside the stifling, stagnant, dictatorial environs of the COG’s. Did you not learn anything about persuasive communication in Spokesman's Club?

Now I understand with even greater clarity why folks such as yourself will require a "rod of iron" to rule in the World Tomorrow," since you are so incapable of articulating a rational, persuasive, thought-provoking argument that could actually win someone over to your side in a non-violent manner. Instead you’ll have to forcefully shove it down their unwilling throats in dictatorial fashion – much like your spiritual cousins, the militant Islamists.

The philosopher and novelist Ayn Rand once wrote an insightful article called "Force and Faith" - in which she essentially explained how throughout history that when religion comes to power in a particular era or location it must physically force it's views upon others (often at the point of a weapon or on an instrument of torture), since the doctrines it holds are based on blind faith, not rational logic or demonstrable evidence. Therefore some kind of coercive FORCE is always required to brutally enforce religious FAITH when implemented on a wide scale.

Your continued non-replies to my specific original observations have STILL not adequately addressed them, even remotely.

Better dust off that rod of iron and get it ready, Bro, because with your obvious lack of sound thinking mixed with your religious zeal, "the rod" will be about the only way you’ll ever get anybody to agree with any of your silly, dogmatic, totally unsupported rantings.

"Come on, my friend, surely being one of the calle...

2008-09-15T16:42:00.000+12:00

"Come on, my friend, surely being one of the called and chosen of God destined for leadership in the World Tomorrow, you should have the moral character and mental capacity to respond with something more intelligent than THAT."

Right... the religious right has dominated politics since the accent of Ronald Reagan has tried to "swift boat" anything it does not agree with.

You dear friend are acting as one of their surrogates. They would be very pleased.

The Churches of God have attempted to follow the real Jesus not the mythical Orthodox Jesus. They were right to do that, even thought they never really found the real Jesus.

Orthodox Christianity will never stop trying to destroy what it defines as heresy.

The "swift boat" attacks against the Churches of God will never stop.

Paul: /-- In order to avoid what? --/To avoid the ...

2008-09-15T13:23:00.000+12:00

Paul: /-- In order to avoid what? --/

To avoid the obvious aggravation of looking for a tolerable church that worships on Saturday. Seventh-Day Adventist congregations are fairly easy to find around here, but I don't feel like trading Herbert Armstrong for Ellen White. (Hey, I'd have to learn a whole new set of catch-phrases!)

I'm not averse to visiting other congregations, mind you. In fact, it's fun. It's just that most of the local COG congregations within driving distance are, shall we say, even less desirable than the local LCG group at this time. There are some nice groups that stream their services live, but that's only satisfying for so long.

Libro

(Don't forget the recent Douglas Becker and his plethora of names! I kinda miss him and his sci-fi references...)

People use a pen name to avoid nutcases like Tom w...

2008-09-15T10:58:00.000+12:00

People use a pen name to avoid nutcases like Tom who writes on his useless blog: "However, there are indications that Dennis and Douglas are beginning to feel the wrath of God, and that Richard may not be able to contact me if news of their destruction should reach him before it reaches me!"

These people can be dangerous due to their mentally unstable personalities. Please don't use your real name folks. You have families!

One last comment:Since we're outing ourselves as t...

2008-09-15T09:51:00.000+12:00

One last comment:

Since we're outing ourselves as to the reasons of our anonymity, for me it comes in two parts:

First of all, if most of either of my former congregrations and/or my former pastors knew who I really was, they would expel large amounts of hemoglobin out a particular bodily orifice with surprising (heh heh) amounts of force. Can't have that now, can we?

The second reason is this: Contrary to what people might think, I'm not in the ex-CoG game or anti-Weinland game or any other kind of game to make my name famous, or get personal recognition. I want the ideas (freedom and self-expression and self-discovery and the love of all knowledge) that I am promoting to stand or fall on their own merits, not be accepted (or more likely rejected) simply because they came from "me".

I have a sneaking suspicion most of us share that outlook.

"How do you know the chosen ones? No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his friend. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame...for one person. In the dark. Where no one will ever know or see. .... At last, my job is finished. Yours is just beginning. When the darkness comes, know this: You are the right people, in the right place, at the right time."

"Comes the Inquisitor", Babylon 5

Dennis,There is an absolutely killer version of "H...

2008-09-15T09:50:00.000+12:00

Dennis,

There is an absolutely killer version of "How Great Thou Art" popular on Christian radio right now. Imagine what it might sound like if the vocalist from Smash Mouth (the guys who did "I'm a Believer" for the Shrek movie) sang the song, only with "the Edge" from U-2 sitting in on guitar.

It's awesomely inspiring, yet very contemporary.

BB

"Paulus of Balonus when addressing the conflict be...

2008-09-15T09:41:00.000+12:00

"Paulus of Balonus when addressing the conflict between the Apostle Paul and the early Church or his being the founder and hijacker of Christianity in the gentile pagan godman mode etc."

So tell us Paulus, are you really Simon the Magi or what? ;-)

Seriously. Some of those religious Gnostics have definitely allowed themselves to be whacked in the head with their own mythologies.

You think we were bad for saying Simon Magus started the RCC? Yeah no. It can get worse, and apparently has, according to one Gnostic priest who is insistently promoting the theology of somebody named Price.

Anybody else heard of this insanity?

Anybody?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Anybody?

Anybody?

Bueller?

"....that Purple Hymnal has her own website and st...

2008-09-15T09:32:00.000+12:00

"....that Purple Hymnal has her own website and studies gnosticism and Quaker meditation...."

May be more accurate to say I studied Quakerism (I have looked into it, and shall we say, I have now looked out) and I engage in gnostic meditation. At this point anyway. :-)

Check with me in six months' time, the list is sure to have changed again. :-)

Anonymous 2:14 wrote: "Another 'Swift boat' attack...

2008-09-15T09:14:00.000+12:00

Anonymous 2:14 wrote:

"Another 'Swift boat' attack on the Churches of God. These folks never stop..."

...in reaction to my post made in Anonymous 3:27.

My sincere comment was merely an observation based on decades of experience as a member and Headquarters employee, along with many years having made a living in the field of publishing. It was not intended as an attack.

That's another one of the main reasons why the COG's are rapidly going extinct and have virtually no impact whatsoever anymore: they simply cannot accept anything that is critical of what they consider to be "God's Work." Perhaps if they did, they would be able to improve thereby.

Think about it.

The problem with people like you is that all you can do is point the finger at honest and sincere comments, and emotionally accuse the source of being in a hostile, unconstructive, Satanic spirit, which is a pretty standard reply when they have nothing more of substance to say. But what good does this actually accomplish? Your reaction reveals an underlying persecusion complex so typical of COG members, along with another characteristic so apparent among them: the complete inability to respond intelligently to any observation they happen to disagree with. Notice you didn't (or couldn't) reply to or intelligibly address the SPECIFICS of my comment, merely ridiculed it as a "Swift boat attack."

Come on, my friend, surely being one of the called and chosen of God destined for leadership in the World Tomorrow, you should have the moral character and mental capacity to respond with something more intelligent than THAT.

Please accept this challenge, and next time respond with something more substantial than a lame and utterly meaningless accusation.

Nice balanced posting on annonimity BB. Each to t...

2008-09-15T00:15:00.000+12:00

Nice balanced posting on annonimity BB. Each to their own I suppose and there can be reasons, real or imagined for not being identifiable as a confident, unique and one who "tends to have a need to want to have a voice" as Dave Pack allowed his teens to be scorned in an article banning blogging by teens and members who had no "real need for a website."

I use my own name and others depending on the mood or the topic.

I am one and the same:

M.T. Hall as this is the name my dad signed to his letter to Joe Tkach asking him if why his local church was getting smaller and smaller.

Father Guido Sarducci when some things Catholic arise .

Paulus of Balonus when addressing the conflict between the Apostle Paul and the early Church or his being the founder and hijacker of Christianity in the gentile pagan godman mode etc.

I almost assume most here would know this based on writing style.

I probably spent too many years sitting down on the outside but wanting to stand up on the inside to play with annonimity.

I joined On and On Annonymous to learn to speak less but it's not working so far.

Warm regards

Dennis C Diehl (Carlton)

Former Pastor WCG
Minneapolis, Chicago , Findlay, Toledo and Mansfield, Ohio, London, Somerset and Middlesboro, KY, Binghamton and Corning, New York, Greenville, SC

Collector of Flint tools

Youngest Son of Fred and Cora Rochester, NY and brother to my severely handicapped brother.

Darn good therapeutic massage person and hard to hate in that
setting.

Liberal lover of theology, human origins, quantum physics, consciousness studies and Ice Age America.

Papa Diehl

Both ENFP and HSP (google it)

Depressed or anxious at times
Misser of several marks along the way "even" as God's chosen minister.

Easy going, live and let live Dutchman

Living with Faith and I don't mean the spiritual concept. I call her "Snick"

And on the Atkins Diet doing great so Tom Mahon won't get to gloat too soon over my impending death for saying what many ministers and serious students of the Bible only think and notice.

Teary eyed fool when I hear "How Great Thou Art," "The Holy City" and many hymns from my Presbyterian youth.....and John Denver.

and lots more...

There is a somewhat solid cadre of us who chose a ...

2008-09-14T14:50:00.000+12:00

There is a somewhat solid cadre of us who chose a screen name, say 5 or more years ago, and have posted under that screen name ever since.

That preserves anonymity, but allows other posters to get to know a bit about our screen name's personality and beliefs. There is a certain limited amount of accountability and consistency, and some friendships have even evolved.

My problem with totally anonymous posters is that they often take potshots, do what I call "drive by" posts, and leave us with very little possibility of two way communication. Makes you feel like ignoring them, but since their posts are often inflammatory, you really can't.

There is a history behind many of our screen names. I know, for instance, that Corky is atheist, that Purple Hymnal has her own website and studies gnosticism and Quaker meditation, that Questeruk and Robert retain some of what HWA taught in their current beliefs, that Richard has written a memoire of his days in WCG, from which he occasionally shares excerpts, that Paul Ray is an atheist, we now know that Libro is a partial believer in LCG doctrine, and this is only an abbreviated list of our cast of regular characters.

For the most part, I don't know who these people are in real life. However, a handful of totally uninhibited participants, such as Dennis, Bill, and Jared have fully disclosed their identities.

And all of this is cool, because it promotes a sense of community.

I say be creative! Come up with a screen name, and use it for all your blogging and forum activity. Of course use common sense! As long as ministers don't recognize specific activities from their individual congregations spelled out here, what would even arouse their suspicions?

BB

"No more evidence is needed to demonstrate that th...

2008-09-14T14:14:00.000+12:00

"No more evidence is needed to demonstrate that the various COG's are quickly going the way of the dinosaurs than the look and contents of their pathetically anemic publications."

Another "Swift boat" attack on the Churches of God. These folks never stop...

I remember Jerry Aust as Jerry, and never realized...

2008-09-14T11:32:00.000+12:00

I remember Jerry Aust as Jerry, and never realized that his name is Jerold until it showed up here. I doubt Mary Ann calls him Jerold. She was a sweet and pretty lass when I knew her, and Jerry was another yokel like the rest of us, clunking his way through AC, shooting for the ministry and singing in the Chorale. If they think they've inherited a new and regal dignity, separating them from the rest of humanity, then for shame, for shame.

Jerry ought to know full well that phonies are transparent to everyone with half an ounce of savvy. But I suspect that under the facade seemingly required of them by officialdom, they're still a couple of fairly regular folks. Fortunately, in my experience he was a decent, down to earth kind of guy, and the girl who became his wife was salt of the good earth.

Compare Hitler's use of propaganda to grow a base ...

2008-09-14T10:10:00.000+12:00

Compare Hitler's use of propaganda to grow a base of supporters or co-workers, and then selecting and controlling the membership, to Armstrong's methods:

"As I have already remarked, I devoted myself to propaganda in the first period of my activity in the movement. What it had to do was gradually to fill a small nucleus of men with the new doctrine, and so prepare the material which could later furnish the first elements of an organization.

When a movement harbors the purpose of tearing down a world and building another in its place, complete clarity must reign in the ranks of its own leadership with regard to the following principles:

Every movement will first have to sift the human material it wins into two large groups: supporters (co-workers) and members.

The function of propaganda is to attract supporters, the function of organization to win members.

A supporter of a movement is one who declares himself to be in agreement with its aims, a member is one who fights for them.

The supporter is made amenable to the movement by propaganda. The member is induced by the organization to participate personally in the recruiting of new supporters, from whom in turn members can be developed.

Since being a supporter requires only a passive recognition of an idea, while membership demands active advocacy and defense, to ten supporters there will at most be one or two members.

Being a supporter is rooted only in understanding, membership in the courage personally to advocate and disseminate what has been understood.

Understanding in its passive form corresponds to the majority of mankind which is lazy and cowardly. Membership requires an activistic frame of mind and thus corresponds only to the minority of men.

Propaganda will consequently have to see that an idea wins supporters, while the organization must take the greatest care only to make the most valuable elements among the supporters into members. Propaganda does not, therefore, need to rack its brains with regard to the importance of every individual instructed by it, with regard to his agility, capacity, and understanding, or character, while the organization must carefully gather from the mass of these elements those which really make possible the victory of the movement.

Propaganda tries to force a doctrine on the whole people; the organization embraces within its scope only those who do not threaten on psychological grounds to become a brake on the further dissemination of the idea.

The victory of an idea will be possible the sooner, the more comprehensively propaganda has prepared people as a whole and the more exclusive, rigid, and firm the organization which carries out the fight in practice.

From this it results that the number of supporters cannot be too large, out that the number of members can more readily be too large than too small."

"It is, therefore, most necessary that a movement, for pure reasons of self-preservation, should, once it has begun to achieve success, immediately block enrollments and henceforth increase its organization only with extreme caution and after the most thorough scrutiny. Only in this way will it be able to preserve the core of the movement in unvitiated freshness and health. It must see to it that, from this point on, this core alone shall exclusively lead the movement, that is, determine the propaganda which should lead to its universal recognition, and, in full possession of the power, undertake the actions which are necessary for the practical realization of its ideas."

Mein Kampf
Volume Two
Chapter XI: Propaganda and Organization

"IMO, The fact that you want to know the identity ...

2008-09-14T09:58:00.000+12:00

"IMO, The fact that you want to know the identity of who posts, is reason enough to deny you that information."

That's hilarious.

BB said....It is interesting not only that WCG att...

2008-09-14T08:24:00.000+12:00

BB said....
It is interesting not only that WCG attracted so many of these men, but also that they could apparently get along amongst themselves, at least while HWA was still alive and cracking the whip.

They're just like Russian matryoshka dolls. You open up the outside Herbie doll, there's another one inside! And inside that one is yet another one! And so it goes...

"I don't think of myself as being fearful, only pr...

2008-09-14T08:22:00.001+12:00

"I don't think of myself as being fearful, only prudent."

In order to avoid what?

Paul Ray

Can we all say "paranoia" together?

2008-09-14T08:22:00.000+12:00

Can we all say "paranoia" together?

On and On Annonymous said... Evidently any past...

2008-09-14T08:12:00.000+12:00

On and On Annonymous said...

Evidently any past and certainly present affiliation with a COG still has the power to put the fear of using one's real name in postings. Is someone watching you?

IMO, The fact that you want to know the identity of who posts, is reason enough to deny you that information.

I was aquainted with Jerold W. Aust back when he w...

2008-09-14T07:27:00.000+12:00

I was aquainted with Jerold W. Aust back when he was simply
"Jerry". My opinion was that he most likely had a Napoleon, or "small man's" complex. That was not terribly unusual, because in that respect, he was not altogether different from HWA.

It is interesting not only that WCG attracted so many of these men, but also that they could apparently get along amongst themselves, at least while HWA was still alive and cracking the whip.

BB