Comments on Ambassador Watch: Tucson Remembers Herb & Stan

What Larry plainly means is, we should fall on our...

2009-02-02T23:01:00.000+13:00

What Larry plainly means is, we should fall on our knees and thank his god, that we were under the oppressive, repressive, evil thumb of his god, for all of our formative years.

Any wonder Junior wants to change the name, if the members of the inside are still like Larry.

larry said:"Nothing illegal has been done to you a...

2009-02-02T09:45:00.000+13:00

larry said:

"Nothing illegal has been done to you and there are billions of people who would trade places with you in a New York minute."

Later:

"All of you should be focusing on the second part of that statement."

Before this thread dies I would like some clarity on the second part of that statement.

What do you plainly mean?

Thanks.

Larry, you said, "I think it says alot of good thi...

2009-02-02T09:15:00.000+13:00

Larry, you said, "I think it says alot of good things about the 20% who had the courage not to leave."

Courage not to leave? Why was it courageous to stay?

How about those Levites and many others, especially from Ephraim, Menashe and Simeon, who packed up and left their homes and land in the apostate northern kingdom of Israel to go south, to Judah? Were they they cowards? Were those who stayed the courageous and praiseworthy? Does the analogy fit, even a little?

I'm sure you have your reasons, and that they make sense to you. Maybe a good job, family ties?

To each his own...

Larry said, "Richard, you should be in agreement w...

2009-02-01T10:30:00.000+13:00

Larry said, "Richard, you should be in agreement with me on everything. I am a very agreeable person."

MY COMMENT - All right Larry. Let's not push it or get mushy. Peace to you on this Sabbath day. Oh, which day do you keep now since you remained in the WCG - not that it really matters?

Richard

...."there are billions of people out there who wo...

2009-02-01T07:57:00.000+13:00

...."there are billions of people out there who would trade places with you in a New York minute...."

Now that we've escaped the clutches of the church? You're absolutely right Larry. Although I do believe that's not quite what you intended.

Thank you for all the explanations. I have read pi...

2009-02-01T06:15:00.000+13:00

Thank you for all the explanations. I have read pieces referenced and looked around at various things about the church.
The teachings on some things seem ok others not so much really.
I tend to believe the incest charges because no one rallied to speak up in his defense. I even found a place where a minister who seems to head one of these off shoots is interviewed by a man and basically just can't deny the charges. That is fairly damning I think.
Over all I can see why people would feel cheated.
It is hard to see God using a man who was molesting his own child for that long in the way this church portrays him as being used.

Thanks for answering me.

Richard, you should be in agreement with me on eve...

2009-02-01T04:51:00.000+13:00

Richard, you should be in agreement with me on everything. I am a very agreeable person.

Larry said, "All of you should be focusing on the ...

2009-02-01T00:53:00.000+13:00

Larry said, "All of you should be focusing on the second part of that statement.Count your blessings every day. I do."

MY COMMENT - Finally Larry, there is something we can both agree on. I do the same. I am thankful, hopeful and grateful.

Richard

I said before,"Nothing illegal has been done to yo...

2009-01-31T17:15:00.000+13:00

I said before,
"Nothing illegal has been done to you, and there are billions of people out there who would trade places with you in a New York minute."

All of you should be focusing on the second part of that statement.
Count your blessings every day. I do.

larry said... “The fact of the matter is that how ...

2009-01-31T12:00:00.000+13:00

larry said... “The fact of the matter is that how much Joe Tkach, Jr. gets paid, is none of your business. And it isn't mine either.”

The fact of the matter is Larry, that if I am investing in a business, I expect the management to be accountable.

I expect regular accounts, so I can see how this business that I have invested in to performing, and I expect to know how much the directors and managers of the business are being paid. The directors are often in a position to set their own pay, and so it is not at all unreasonable to have this as public knowledge for those with an interest in the business.

The above applies to a business – it should apply even more to a church where the person donating to it is voluntary giving their personal substance to a cause that they believe in. Openness from those that are managing the church is even more essential than in a purely business situation.

Leaders of a church have a responsibility not only to be honest and above suspicion, but to be SEEN to be honest and above suspicion.

I am no longer a member of WCG, so in theory it is no longer my concern (although when it was my concern financial details were not being produced). However, Larry, I suggest that it IS your business – your should have access to the financial details of the church that you support.

If everything is fine and dandy, why would any church have a problem with that?

Larry: "Nothing illegal has been done to you."Now ...

2009-01-31T11:51:00.000+13:00

Larry: "Nothing illegal has been done to you."

Now there is a comment from an insider. And a remarkable one at that.

Religious leaders know that the Constitution guarantees neither taste nor truth in matters of Religion. Americans have a right to make fools of themselves as so may of us did and many are still doing.

At the same time it is interesting that so may here take postings as if they are actually from the people they say they are.
That is demonstrating the same level of gullibility we manifested while in Armstrongism. Jeez, didn't we learn anything?

Now I don't take "Larry" as who he pretends to be. But the quote I cited is a true statement. None of us have a legal case in spite of how much complaining we do.

Now if we speak of ethics, then we have grounds to stand on. But that is not a legal issue.

How Now Brown Cloud said:"Face it folks, it's gone...

2009-01-31T10:37:00.000+13:00

How Now Brown Cloud said:"Face it folks, it's gone, they've gotten away with it and left the building. Best thing any of us could do is let it go, forget about them, work with what we have left, and get our revenge by not giving them the power to have crushed us. We've already got them by the balls by putting out enough information that none of them seem to be able to grow in any measurable way. There's lots of satisfaction in that."

I agree. Looking on the bright side of things, while I was in the WCG, the lack of marketable skills from a proper education and the doctrinal restrictions on where and when I could work kept my income level while I was in rather meager.

I left the WCG, used the GI Bill and some federal student loans to earn some tech certificates and now do fairly well in the software industry...and they don't get a f'ing dime.

Now if I could just shake the rest of the mental baggage and rescue my parents...

Laughter is the best medicine right?? I'll give Dennis another call, he has this way of finding the humor in it all.

How about this conundrum? As WCG members, we were...

2009-01-31T08:42:00.000+13:00

How about this conundrum? As WCG members, we were taught to give freely and with a good heart. After we gave, what we had given was no longer our concern. That's what most of our attitudes were when we gave tithes, offerings, time, and tangibles.

Yes, there is now a different corporate viewpoint and belief sytem at WCG. Yes, some have stuck to the original models and object to current liquidation and/or usage of assets. But, also, yes, some of the free and cheerful givers of the past are also rethinking the wisdom of their freewill contributions of years gone by, and now want to hold the new administration responsible.

There is no way to resolve all of this. Some would like their (or their parents') tithes and offerings back, so they could get the education they missed, retire, or just plain enjoy life. Others would like their tithes and offerings back so that they could give them to their current "originals" splinter group.

Face it folks, it's gone, they've gotten away with it and left the building. Best thing any of us could do is let it go, forget about them, work with what we have left, and get our revenge by not giving them the power to have crushed us. We've already got them by the balls by putting out enough information that none of them seem to be able to grow in any measurable way. There's lots of satisfaction in that.

If that's not Rodders, I'll eat my hat! (And it's ...

2009-01-31T06:52:00.000+13:00

If that's not Rodders, I'll eat my hat! (And it's cold out, too!)

I have researched the picture, and found out that pertinent text was "photoshopped" out of it.
My sources? Rocky and Bullwinkle, of course. I called them, and they handed the research project to their friends Sherman and Peabody, who used Peabody's "WABAC machine" to confirm what I thought was the TRUTH.

Although I'm hesitant to say it, I AM the TRUTHIEST commenter on this blog. (Sorry, Larry.)

The TRUTH is, that the picture was actually of Rodders finding a sign hung on the back of HWA's pants.
The "man in the middle" is apparently the evil Snidely Whiplash, who seems guilty of the hanging crime.

Here is the original picture</a

How dare anyone hang such a thing off of Herb's ass!

Anon 10:22, I think it says alot of good things...

2009-01-31T03:00:00.000+13:00

Anon 10:22,
I think it says alot of good things about the 20% who had the courage not to leave. Remember, in 1776, only 20% of the American population supported independence from Great Britain. A disproportionate number of those were the poor living on the frontier, the gutsiest people in the country. (and my ancestors I might add)

Anonymous Fri Jan 30, 10:22:00 PM NZDT said, "As f...

2009-01-31T02:49:00.000+13:00

Anonymous Fri Jan 30, 10:22:00 PM NZDT said, "As for the Hammers, I can't speak for them. If it matters to you, you might give them a call. There's Tony Hammer, Jackie Carnes, Molly Antion and Shirley Armstrong. If memory serves, they grew up on that property. Perhaps they have opinions worth considering. I doubt they're in a tizzy over it, but they might have some interesting insights."

MY COMMENT - Your overall post is outstanding. However, I am the one who originally brought up the Hammer family land donation to the clueless Larry several months back. I used it as an example of the obfuscation fraud of the church and as an example of a donation made to the church for one specific purpose and that purpose was to build another Ambassador College.

I made a simple statement at the time to clueless Larry that if WCG had any integrity, Tkach and company would have compensated the Hammer family for the value of the land when Tkach sold the Big Sandy property.

I'm sure the Hammer family isn't in a tizzy about it. I used as an example this one transaction where the land was donated for one specific purpose by one specific family and how it demonstrates a clear lack of honesty and integrity of The Worldwide Church of Fraud!

Did the Hammer family donate the land for any other purpose other than to build and operate an Ambassador College by the WCG? Did the Hammer family donate the land so that 40 years later, another Pastor General could liquidate the college and pocket the money?

Richard

Before the posting slips away...I remember the pic...

2009-01-31T01:27:00.000+13:00

Before the posting slips away...

I remember the picture now. It is, of course Rod Meredith and the setting was in Tuscon during the receivership. I believe RCM is showing HWA a blown up copy of his full page ad, like Flurry's of late, to defend himself.

Larry, I'm a little shaken by your candid admissio...

2009-01-30T22:22:00.000+13:00

Larry, I'm a little shaken by your candid admission: "Nothing illegal has been done to you...".

Since when has legality defined Christian decency? Philip Wylie wrote of the phenomenon back in 1942. "Any procedure that was technically legal became the businessman's definition of ethics and, thus, the public definition of morality." (Generation of Vipers, 1996 paperback edition, p. 223).

There is another code worth looking into, legal on an even higher plane. It requires loving God above all, and one's neighbor as oneself. Sacred justice is its backbone.

I'm not crying over spilt milk, but facts are facts. When 80% of a church population abandons its treasure and leadership, on principles it holds higher than physical wealth, one asks, "Why?" In this case legal title to the properties went to those who changed the game.

There's no doubt that improvements were long overdue. Why then did so many leave? Considering what those people had originally left to obtain church membership, and the degree to which they studied comparative religions to fortify their convictions, is it not strange that the new leaders couldn't convince the flock that their changes were true improvements?

It might be worth the time and effort to research whether title changed in good faith that the game would be so drastically changed -- or if this might have been a matter of breaking faith honorably, in order to obey God rather than man. It couldn't hurt to examine the facts, could it?

As for the Hammers, I can't speak for them. If it matters to you, you might give them a call. There's Tony Hammer, Jackie Carnes, Molly Antion and Shirley Armstrong. If memory serves, they grew up on that property. Perhaps they have opinions worth considering. I doubt they're in a tizzy over it, but they might have some interesting insights.

Wow! Whenever financial issues come up about the C...

2009-01-30T17:45:00.000+13:00

Wow! Whenever financial issues come up about the Church, folks really get riled up. I read all the arguments, and I am not going to get into a pi**ing contest about who has contributed what to whom, and how much. You make it sound like you have been so deprived. Come on. Nothing illegal has been done to you, and there are billions of people out there who would trade places with you in a New York minute.

The fact of the matter is that how much Joe Tkach, Jr. gets paid, is none of your business. And it isn't mine either. Now, if the Hammers have a beef, they are more than welcome to take it up with the Church. If they have done so, it is news to me.

Larry,I am a happy member of a major Protestant de...

2009-01-30T14:03:00.000+13:00

Larry,

I am a happy member of a major Protestant denomination. The salary and perks of the head of my denomination are openly published on the web. In addition, the church is audited by a major CPA firm and the results of the audit are also on the web. I won't bother to tell you which denomination I am referring to because I am convinced that every reputable denomination of any size publishes this information. It's the Christian thing to do.

What does WCG have to hide?

(Of course I don't expect you to answer this question; as others have noted, you sidestep the hard questions.)

PH wrote: "My family gave away my university ...

2009-01-30T05:51:00.000+13:00

PH wrote: "My family gave away my university education to the church, Larry: Is it my business, do you think? My parents gave any retirement savings they might have had to the church as 3rd tithe, and they are both entirely too close to retirement age. (I will probably be supporting one parent, and I'm classed as one of the working poor right now myself.) Is it their business, do you think?"

--> They sure did, that and more because they were true believers in the end time and that we were going either flee or die at the hands of those pesky Germans. (EVERYTHING but the barest essentials was put on hold for the family in the 60's and 70's and even part of the 80's)

The only college I received was through the GI Bill and the rest I am still paying off my student loans and I am getting real close to 40.

Looking on the bright side though; I got out of armstrongism alive and my children won't have to go through it.

"WCG is vastly different today than it was years a...

2009-01-29T22:52:00.000+13:00

"WCG is vastly different today than it was years ago, and so is Joey."

Pull the other one, it's got bells on. The only difference in Junior is that he's richer than he was, once upon a time, in a galaxy far, far away. (The parallel universe where we used to exist.)

"But the real question, the one that you continually skirt around, is were those changes an improvement or just a lateral move to another bad place."

Or not really much of any change at all, if Larry's defenses of BI and Armstrong-worship are any indication.

"It is still totally unaccountable, and downright secretive in all its affairs. Members, legally classed as only contributors, have no rights and no access to any information that has not been censored by the administration."

My point precisely. The more things change........

"Baash, I really do not understand why that is any of YOUR business. Can you enlighten me?"

My family gave away my university education to the church, Larry: Is it my business, do you think? My parents gave any retirement savings they might have had to the church as 3rd tithe, and they are both entirely too close to retirement age. (I will probably be supporting one parent, and I'm classed as one of the working poor right now myself.) Is it their business, do you think?

"I am convinced that you won't be able to do so, and will find yet another way to avoid the question."

Just as he's avoided every other "difficult" question since he showed his face here.

Larry, May I enlighten you?For 40+ years I and my ...

2009-01-29T20:52:00.000+13:00

Larry, May I enlighten you?

For 40+ years I and my many colleagues contributed tithes, offerings, building funds, 2nd and 3rd tithes to the WCG. They were OUR funds, voluntarily contributed to the church in good faith that they would be used responsibly. We had no intent, then or now, that the campuses, buildings and physical plants that we helped to build and buy with our own money and actual labor should eventually have been inherited by one person -- a very young corporate sole with “new” ideas we had all studied and rejected before coming to AC (See, “Honey, I Shrunk the Church”).

You seem to be saying that once given, IN TRUST, its use is no longer my business? Forgive me if I misjudge, but might that sound a little condescending? What part of the corporate sole’s newfound largesse did you contribute? Let me assure you that we, who built the fortune inherited by today’s WCG corporate sole, would not have contributed so much as one penny, had it proffered the teachings of today’s WCG.

I cannot help but think of the Hammer family who once gave their vast Texas acreage to the WCG. The whole COG thing was a gamble that left its true winnings in the heads and hearts of the benefactors who were able to use the experience profitably. The new gang got the worldly goods. Hopefully, those who left found ways to mend and advance their spiritual quests -- but won’t you please come down off your high horse, whoever you are, Larry? Think about those who gave, sometimes to their own hurt, to create, in trust that has since been severely violated, the vast holdings inherited and now liquidated, by a very different administration indeed.

Anon 12:50 - doctrinal issuesWhile doctrinal issue...

2009-01-29T18:39:00.000+13:00

Anon 12:50 - doctrinal issues

While doctrinal issues can be and have been discussed on this blog, I don't believe theological discussion is the intended theme.

Could you perhaps convince Bob Thiel to open his COGwriter blog to comments? I think we would make a concerted effort to limit our postings to his blog to doctrinal argument, following the principles and practice of sound scholarly research and Biblical exegis.

Baashabob said,"If you disagree, all you have to d...

2009-01-29T17:22:00.000+13:00

Baashabob said,
"If you disagree, all you have to do is point us to the place where we will find out where all the money has gone, and tell us how much Joey gets in salary and expenses."

Baash, I really do not understand why that is any of YOUR business. Can you enlighten me?