Comments on Ambassador Watch: Musing with James Tabor

Hey Byker Bob, Mad TV actually had a story like t...

2009-08-31T07:29:55.315+12:00

Hey Byker Bob,

Mad TV actually had a story like that: the Terminator (or, actually, the Arnold character from Terminator II) goes back in time to rescue Jesus. He keeps blasting Judas, but Jesus keeps healing him.

"what you see on earth is Satan's mentali...

2009-08-24T23:57:42.131+12:00

"what you see on earth is Satan's mentality. Satan rebelled in heaven, and he spread that rebellious attitude to mankind."

God just can't seem to control the little devil, can he?

The Skeptic

what you see on earth is Satan's mentality. Sa...

2009-08-24T15:38:21.170+12:00

what you see on earth is Satan's mentality. Satan rebelled in heaven, and he spread that rebellious attitude to mankind..

So, rebellion can happen in heaven?
Then what makes heaven any better a place than earth? What else happens in heaven? Murder? Theft? Angels committing fornication with humans? Wait...aren't angels supposed to be sexless?

A story of heavenly rebellion and angels having sex with humans is not my idea of a perfect government going on there.

"A rebellion in the heaven of God's thron...

2009-08-24T01:32:11.952+12:00

"A rebellion in the heaven of God's throne doesn't say much for the perfection of that realm, does it? That sounds more like things that happen on earth amongst men."

what you see on earth is Satan's mentality. Satan rebelled in heaven, and he spread that rebellious attitude to mankind.

"But, by the time that Peter cuts off the cen...

2009-08-24T00:55:25.826+12:00

"But, by the time that Peter cuts off the centurion's ear.."

Had Peter raised a sword against a Roman Centurian, he would have been cut down on the spot. I believe the victim of Peter was the servant of a High Priest. The crowd was sent by the High Priest and were not Romans (Matt 26:47) The author is going to great pains to not blame Romans. You only blame those who can't take you out for it.

Why did Judas have to reveal who Jesus was with a kiss. Did he not have a pointing finger? Why did Jesus need to be pointed out if he was so famous in Jerusalem and thousands knew him? How did

The Judas story is inserted to make the Jews the cause of Jesus death, and not the Romans. In the Gospels, the Romans are portrayed as near converts of Jesus Again, this is a wise way to write the story because one should not make enemies of those with all the power.

Paul does the same in Romans 13 when he tells the church to obey the Romans and the powers that be. His days would have been numbered had he not. You can call the Jews anything you wish, and Paul did, but not the Romans.

Judas suffers two different deaths in scripture...hanging and gut busting after a fall. And please don't think he was hanging so long the rope finally broke and he fell down and burst. That is not what the stories indicate.

You don't fall "headlong" from a hanging.

By the fourth century, Judas was the worst of the worst and of course the Jews would pay for the next 2000 years.

"Judas was a terrible, walking example of ungodliness in this world ... For his eyelids, they say, were so swollen that he could not see the light at all, and his eyes could not be seen ... when he relieved himself there passed through it pus and worms from every part of his body, much to his shame.

After much agony and punishment, they say, he finally died in his own place, and because of the stench the area is deserted and uninhabitable even now; in fact, to this day no one can pass that place unless they hold their nose, so great was the discharge from his body and so far did it spread over the ground."

Papias,"Exposition of the Oracles of the Lord" as quoted in Apollinaris of Laodicea, Christian priest and storyteller.

Peter denied Jesus. Judas betrayed him.

The message of these stories is from the church writers to the people. 1. Don't follow Peter 2. Don't blame the Romans..please. The Jews killed Jesus.

The choice of the people wanting Pilate to free Jesus Son of the Father (Bar-Abbas) and not Jesus the King of the Jews, (we have no King but Caesar) was a story meant to show the people were loyal to Rome and not in rebellion. The Romans didn't care if the church looked at Jesus as a religious figure..Bar-Abbas, but did if he was their King.

So they killed Jesus the King of the Jews and not Jesus the Son of the Father. So we have to also ask which Jesus was crucified? The political one or the Spiritual one? According to this, it was the rebel and not the savior.

There were not two people Pilate was asking them to choose one of. There was one Jesus and Rome wanted to know if he was a King or a religious figure. The fate of the crowd depended on which TITLE they assigned to Jesus.

The Jews (Judas) did it.

maybe he thought Jesus wouldn't go through wit...

2009-08-23T14:56:52.051+12:00

maybe he thought Jesus wouldn't go through with it, that He would falter and sin, which would make Satan the winner by default.
who knows why Satan does the things he does. who would, after serving at the very Throne of God, think that they could over throw Him?.

Jesus wouldn't have any choice but to go through with it since Judas betrayed him to the authorities. So, that can't be the answer.

A rebellion in the heaven of God's throne doesn't say much for the perfection of that realm, does it? That sounds more like things that happen on earth amongst men. The whole story of angelic rebellion just sounds so Hellenistic and...Pagan.

Anonymous(es): Jesus Christ's purpose in comi...

2009-08-23T11:06:10.256+12:00

Anonymous(es):

Jesus Christ's purpose in coming to earth was to die for the past, present, and future sins of humanity. Everyone played their correct part in making sure that this would happen on schedule (even Satan).

If Satan or anyone else had succeeded in preventing the crucifixion, it would actually have been a victory for Satan. I've oft contemplated a Star Trek episode based on this, patterned after the one in which Kirk and Spock travel back in time to the 1930s. They encounter a remarkable woman, a peace activist who is to die when hit by an automobile. If not, she is so convincing that she will turn the entire US into a peacenik nation, and there will be nobody to confront and defeat Adolf Hitler. Spock and McCoy literally hold Jim Kirk back, when, to prevent her final accident, he could easily push this lady to safety. She dies, and history remains as we know it with Hitler having been defeated.

In my version, the Star Trek characters would accidentally become propelled into the first century and become disciples of Jesus. They would become philosophically aligned with Simon Peter. But, by the time that Peter cuts off the centurion's ear, Spock would have convinced Kirk not to use his phaser on the Romans and Jews, or any of the ship's weaponry, because if Jesus were prevented from being crucified, all of humanity would have no savior.

BB

"Maybe you folks who believe in a literal dev...

2009-08-23T00:50:05.022+12:00

"Maybe you folks who believe in a literal devil could explain why Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus when the death of Jesus would bring about his own destruction?"

maybe he thought Jesus wouldn't go through with it, that He would falter and sin, which would make Satan the winner by default.
who knows why Satan does the things he does. who would, after serving at the very Throne of God, think that they could over throw Him?

"The idea Satan mimicks to discredit is simpl...

2009-08-23T00:45:57.608+12:00

"The idea Satan mimicks to discredit is simply an apologetic to explain away the obvious so the Christians win again."

ummmm, the plan existed before any human did, so the whole zodiac thing (a human invention)is obviously a counterfeit.

" Who decided that it was time to move from t...

2009-08-22T23:12:42.273+12:00

" Who decided that it was time to move from the blood of bulls to sheep to fishers of men? Who is going to decide that it is time to change the myth to move to water?"

It seems to be a evolutionary process of thought and thus story telling. The key seems to be a function of what sign is at the Spring Equinox at "Easter" It takes 2190 years or so to rotate a new sign into the Easter position. Religions and adoption new and improved gods was very very common in the past.

"I understand the progression of the signs but how does this in any way relate to the reality of what is happening on earth?"

It revolves around the agriculture, plant and harvest cycle and the recognition that the SUN gives all life etc. The SUN turns water (rain) into wine (by growing grapes) gets literalized, first with Dionysius and then makes a good story for Jesus, both SUN gods.

"I just don't understand how how people who write their religious and biblical stories know/knew where to go and how to incorporate their mythologies into the zodiac pattern."

Its the other way around. The agricultural story of the SUN cycle was the original observation. When certain stars, constellations etc, were in certain places, it was time to do this or that agriculturally. When writing came and could replace just oral traditions, it could be written down, which literalized it. Then the writings evolved, changing the names of the gods to accomdate various cultures.

A key seems to be writing. Once you write it down, it can be called "sacred" For a long time, writings were just for the elite and priestcraft, so it could be used to manipulate and control.

The fact that Malachi says "The SUN of righteousness will rise with healing in his wings" etc shows they knew the connection between the SUN and some literalized form of it. Making their godmen sons of "the morning Star" etc, shows they could weave a tale about them based on astronomical observations common to all cultures.

For example, When Orion (sword n shield lifted high) is coming up in the East the herdsman Bootes and Virgo the virgin are going down in the West. Perhaps the origin of Adam and Eve driven from the Garden (day) into the night with the mighty angel guarding the Eastern side. (Gen 3:23) and the way to the trees reserved only for the gods. Of course in real life, you'd have to guard all directions, but this fit the night sky picture. The story is originally Sumerian as is the story of Noah.

"SUNS of God" and "The Christ Conspiracy" by Acharyas S are a good overview.

"The Religion of the Occident" by Larson , hard to find, but is also very good.

These books explain the how and evolution of the same story of the dying godman in history.

Julian Jaynes, Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, is also helpful perhaps.

The arrival of writing and then a more defined human consciousness was a big factor in the explosion of gods and godmen stories that evolved and made their way into different cultures for differnt uses.

Start with "The SUNS of God." Good overview imho.

Tabor seems like a gentle soul. There's non...

2009-08-22T15:18:30.685+12:00

Tabor seems like a gentle soul.

There's none of the snarkiness you usually see in COG ministers.

Dionysius said, "Moses grinds up the calf or...

2009-08-22T11:25:58.461+12:00

Dionysius said,

"Moses grinds up the calf or bull as a sign that the age of Taurus is coming to an end with the progression of the equinoxes from Taurus to Aries about 2000 BC. Aries ends with the crucifixion of the lamb Aries 2000 years ago. Pices, the fish is the sign of the church and fishers of men which is ending soon and I imagine religion will change again from a blood symbol to water as it enters Aquarius, the water man."

Big D, here is the - or rather a - part of this story that I don't understand - and I am very serious here.

How has this story told in the zodiac managed to endure for several thousand years? Who created it? Who preserves it? You say, "I imagine that religion will change again from a blood symbol to water as it enters Aquarius..."

Why? Not symbolically why, I get that part. Who decided that it was time to move from the blood of bulls to sheep to fishers of men? Who is going to decide that it is time to change the myth to move to water? I understand the progression of the signs but how does this in any way relate to the reality of what is happening on earth? Is there a man behind the curtain? Is there a secret sect hidden under the pyramids?

Sorry for the inarticulate mess above, but it has been a long week for me. I just don't understand how how people who write their religious and biblical stories know/knew where to go and how to incorporate their mythologies into the zodiac pattern.

Help.

Anonymous said... ...probably Satan's greates...

2009-08-22T10:14:45.396+12:00

Anonymous said...

...probably Satan's greatest trick yet, convincing you that he doesn't really exist.

Naw, he was just diabolically mimicking Santa Claus! I bet you think Santa Claus doesn't exist!

"Like it or not, the origin of Satan is also ...

2009-08-22T07:11:25.636+12:00

"Like it or not, the origin of Satan is also partly the story of the planet Venus which preceeds the Sun "thinking to ascend to the throne of God."

probably Satan's greatest trick yet, convincing you that he doesn't really exist.

Anon 11:20's, "Satan created the zodiac t...

2009-08-22T07:04:48.423+12:00

Anon 11:20's, "Satan created the zodiac to try and discredit the plan.....and with at least one person here, it seems to be working." is a bold assertion.

In Job 38, God asks Job: "Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion? Can you bring out Mazzaroth [zodiac or constellations] in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?"

Revelation 12 mentions a woman clothed with the sun, the moon at her feet. The only woman in the heavens through which the sun passes, is Virgo. A similar imagery was interpreted by Jacob, in the Joseph story, as symbolizing his family. Have you not noticed the similarity of the signs of the Zodiac to descriptions of Jacob's 12 sons?

Israel is forbidden to worship the host of heaven, including the zodiac, but there is no denial of its existence. Quite to the contrary, it is poignantly, and often, acknowledged.

How then can we assume that Satan created it?

Anonymous Fri Aug 21, 09:07:00 AM NZST wrote - &qu...

2009-08-22T05:20:18.683+12:00

Anonymous Fri Aug 21, 09:07:00 AM NZST wrote - "...so much so that God waits for us to reveal insights that would not have occurred to Him."

No doubt another fine example that mankind, especially ex COGers are always increasing in knowledge but never coming to the truth!

Maybe you folks who believe in a literal devil cou...

2009-08-22T05:06:59.159+12:00

Maybe you folks who believe in a literal devil could explain why Satan entered into Judas to betray Jesus when the death of Jesus would bring about his own destruction?

"It's called Diobolical Deception," ...

2009-08-22T03:58:49.699+12:00

"It's called Diobolical Deception,"

Sorry, I meant "Diobolical Mimicry"

Apologists have been using the idea that Satan copies the truth in advance to throw the faithful a loop, for a very long time.

The TRUTH is that many of the Christian "truths" existed in similar forms in other cultures and religions before the Christians copied them etc.

Mithraism resembles Paul's gentile Christian ideas of the godman and holidays because Paul or the Church took it's cue from them. Tarsus was a hotbed of Mithraism and Paul would have been very familiar with the story.

James Tabor rightly notes the Greek or Hellenized version we get today. If Paul was a Hebrew of the Hebrews, he never used Hebrew to prove it. And when he tried to find meaning in the Hebrew story, he turned it on it's head making it mean what it never meant.

What we see as Christianity existed in form and teaching long before Christians came along. Remember...there is nothing new under the sun or the son.

Pagan gods were "the way the truth and the life or light" long before Jesus "said" it. Jesus was also not the first to say a lot of things. His words of "eating his body and drinking his blood" ewww, did not originate with Jesus. Canabalizing the godman was very common in the past to gain his insite and spirit.

Jesus of the Gospels, never intended to have to start a Church. Original Apostles never thought they would die like everyone else. He never intended his death until it went badly for him and God did not intervene, rout the Romans and bring the Kingdom. He wasn't kidding when he asked, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me..." Of course, that's when the apologetics began in earnest.

Remember, Paul wrote his Gentile version of the Gospel and Jesus, lived and died, long before any Gospel was ever penned. It's why neither heard of the other in their writings. Then come the Gospels and taking the Gentile cosmic Jesus of Paul's hallucinations from the sky to the earth as a fleshed out human.

This is why some in the early church were cursed for saying, Jesus never came in the flesh. Paul was FIRST to interprete Jesus, then the Gospels. They are not the same Jesus by any means.

To get the picture better we would have to put Galatians first perhaps, Paul's real writings, Paul's pseudopigrapha and the church epistles and then the Gospels which present the fleshy Jewish Jesus.

The rest is history.

Anon's post (Fri Aug 21, 11:20:00 AM, of "...

2009-08-22T00:54:04.457+12:00

Anon's post (Fri Aug 21, 11:20:00 AM, of "Satan created the..." fame) struck me as kind of kooky, yet I do notice that there are plenty of Christians who believe that "Satan has planted fossils"(in order to trick people who would later look back on history), and that Satan created Mithraism in advance of Jesus(in order to trick people who would later look back on history), as well as a whole slew of other things that people posit Satan did in advance of future events because he knew what was coming and wanted to trick people who would later look back on history.

It makes me wonder if it's "Satan" who's ultimately super-tricky, or if the "tricky" ones are the people who manipulate facts in their minds in order to believe these highly questionable theories.

And if those conspiracy theories were true, wouldn't that make God a total dickhead for laying that on us via "Satan"?

I think the truly "tricky ones" are the preachers who hang the specter of "tricky ole Satan" over our heads while constantly and consistently asking for more money.

"i often marvel at how the ancients saw those...

2009-08-21T23:28:37.024+12:00

"i often marvel at how the ancients saw those critters in the stars....certainly takes a lot of imagination."

While some signs do fairly well resemble their form, others don't so much and the "ancients" knew it. But it was in the right spot for the story which has existed since humans developed conscious awareness.

The idea Satan mimicks to discredit is simply an apologetic to explain away the obvious so the Christians win again. It's called Diobolical Deception, and a common way to put carts before horses so as to explain away the obvious origin of the now fleshed out story of the godmen.

Moses grinds up the calf or bull as a sign that the age of Taurus is coming to an end with the progression of the equinoxes from Taurus to Aries about 2000 BC. Aries ends with the crucifixion of the lamb Aries 2000 years ago. Pices, the fish is the sign of the church and fishers of men which is ending soon and I imagine religion will change again from a blood symbol to water as it enters Aquarius, the water man.

After all, they do have you paying a buck for a bottle of water that costs them nothing and blood as the symbol of life has fallen out of favor as trustable.

Like it or not, the origin of Satan is also partly the story of the planet Venus which preceeds the Sun "thinking to ascend to the throne of God." (Noon) But , alas, gets cast back to the earth every time for such arrogance. (a function of being an inner planet) Both Jesus and Satan are called "the bright and morning star" in the Bible. Satan in Isaiah and Jesus in Revelation. Satan is called "the son of the morning star" That's Venus. That planet has fueled lots of theology.

I am sure that this info was one of, if not the secret truth that was kept from the commoners and was the basis for "secret knowledge" held close to the chest by the priestcrafters

"Satan created the zodiac to try and discredi...

2009-08-21T23:04:41.449+12:00

"Satan created the zodiac to try and discredit the plan.....and with at least one person here, it seems to be working."

I thought God created the heavens and the earth?

Even the story of Annanias and Sapphira being stru...

2009-08-21T19:57:01.159+12:00

Even the story of Annanias and Sapphira being struck down by Peter for saying one thing and doing another is a spoof on Peter, in Acts, who said he'd do one thing and did another too.

Does anyone know if the Annanias that Peter struck down is the same Annanias who received Paul after the police helicopter turned on the search light on him on the road to Damascus? (You know I'm kidding about the helicopter right?)

If it is, then it makes for an interesting counterplay, in that Peter strikes down the very person Paul used to establish his divine mission to the Gentiles. It is Annanias Paul is told to meet.

There are precedents for this type of writing in the OT. The griffin was the Aaronite Priesthood symbol (covering the ark of the covenant), the Bull was the Levite priesthood symbol, and we find a politcal merging of two books in the OT and it has Moses grinding the bull into dust and making the Children of Israel eat it...thus crushing a decentralized priesthood into a centralized one.

It would also fit into that idea that the False Prophet of Revelation is Paul.

Could it be that Annanias really was in it for the money and Paul was his meal ticket? Not that anyone we know would get into religion after a long period of economic hardship and lack of employment so that he could once again enjoy the luxuries of life.

OR - is that the Jewish Church's opinion of Annaias for his ringing endorsement of Paul? Strike him dead with Peter's word? I wonder why the story doesn't have Peter using that trusty sword, I mean come on - Peter had an ear fetish! Ask the Roman Soldiers!

I'm thinking out load yet because I haven't researched this yet, maybe some of you have already?

The path to true understanding is when you realize...

2009-08-21T13:23:15.077+12:00

The path to true understanding is when you realize that there is absolutely no difference between saying "The Christ in me" and "The Buddha in me."

hmmm, the zodiac is a creation of man (which means...

2009-08-21T11:20:20.681+12:00

hmmm, the zodiac is a creation of man (which means Satan put put it in his mind)
i often marvel at how the ancients saw those critters in the stars....certainly takes a lot of imagination.
to try to use the zodiac arguement to discredit the plan is backward thinking.....the plan came first, then the zodiac... Satan created the zodiac to try and discredit the plan.....and with at least one person here, it seems to be working. (he is right on one point, however, it's no coincidence)

I read in these comments so much interest in, yet ...

2009-08-21T11:00:27.640+12:00

I read in these comments so much interest in, yet so much contempt for the Bible. The Bible is a passionate book for sure! Those who say they no longer believe in it send such a strong message demonstrating their passion around it.
Their passion here does more to promote the Bible than does its antithesis- apathy. Apathetic people wouldn't bother coming on here and commenting. Apathy is the opposite of love and the opposite of hate, so thank you for helping out. You are not lukewarm!