Comments on Ambassador Watch: Thiel Misapplies Revelation verses

Yes, I agree with you, Purple Hymnal, my impressio...

2008-11-20T05:59:00.000+13:00

Yes, I agree with you, Purple Hymnal, my impression is also that many Christians (though perhaps not all) do not find freedom compatible with their belief system. Few religions down through history can dwell in peace with free-thinking human minds.

In America that’s why Thomas Jefferson referred to the “wall of separation” between church and state in his letter to the Danbury Baptists of 1801– as he realized from history that once religions become politically powerful, it’s just a matter of time until they start using force to stifle debate.

Many religionists basically argue in the following way: "I believe in freedom, as long my cherished assumptions that I cannot logically or articulately demonstrate in debate are given a free pass."

Well I say “Nuts” to that concept! Religionists are going to have to earn the right to be considerately heard in the marketplace of ideas just like anyone else promoting any other view, religious or secular, where empirical evidence and demonstrable proof and logic are the coins of the realm, not subjective, dogmatic and essentially unprovable assertions.

The religionist's days of intellectual unearned respect and free-passes are gone – they basically ended with the fall of the Middle Ages and the rise of the Renaissance.

"I've just come to appreciate the fact that Christ...

2008-11-19T14:34:00.000+13:00

"
I've just come to appreciate the fact that Christians (and some select enlightened others) stand for freedom, and don't feel threatened by it."

I don't feel threatened, and I don't believe Christians stand for freedom at all.

Larry the loser said, "My resonse to Richard, PH, ...

2008-11-19T12:50:00.000+13:00

Larry the loser said, "My resonse to Richard, PH, and Paul Ray is very simple. If you don't like my posts, fine. No one ever forces you to read them".

MY COMMENT - the plain truth about the fraud of the WCG and HWA hurts Larry. However, Larry reads my posts even when no one forces him to do so.

Richard

"I've just come to appreciate the fact that Christ...

2008-11-19T10:08:00.000+13:00

"I've just come to appreciate the fact that Christians (and some select enlightened others) stand for freedom..."

You may think that, but the only freedom that your religion allows is the kind it has invented, as Christianity has invented the problem (sin and punishment) and the solution (Jebus).

Paul Ray

Good. That's all I've asked for.

2008-11-19T06:58:00.000+13:00

Good. That's all I've asked for.

I'm not going to take any more bait, Russ, althoug...

2008-11-19T03:48:00.000+13:00

I'm not going to take any more bait, Russ, although at least I'm allowed to respond to it here if I like.

I've just come to appreciate the fact that Christians (and some select enlightened others) stand for freedom, and don't feel threatened by it. That's the most profound lesson which has come from this, and the most positive way in which I can state it.

BB

anonymous: I'm not the pone traipsing all over th...

2008-11-18T19:47:00.000+13:00

anonymous: I'm not the pone traipsing all over the place whining about the big bad atheist blogmaster censoring them. I'd say that's a pretty good indication that I'm more effective than others would like to believe.

Or are you guys finally going to get around to actually *ignoring* me? Oh the pain, I don't know how I could cope with that. No, please don't ignore me, anything but that!

A little reverse psychology there. Oh, wait - I'm not supposed to say that, am I?

Russ wrote:but MY BLOG is going to be the death of...

2008-11-18T19:32:00.000+13:00

Russ wrote:
but MY BLOG is going to be the death of Christianity because it doesn't allow preaching!

Hey buddy, you're sounding a bit like ole Herb there, CAPS and an inflated opinion of your own effectiveness.

Larry,I'm glad you're OK. I suspect the others I'...

2008-11-18T19:16:00.000+13:00

Larry,

I'm glad you're OK. I suspect the others I've mentioned are doing just fine, too.

It's funny. None of us imagine that we'll be extrapolated into a box of the worst assortment of cliched stereotypes. But, the minute we annouce belief, in the box we go!

Keep the faith!
BB

Wow, someone doesn't like it when there's a place ...

2008-11-18T19:04:00.000+13:00

Wow, someone doesn't like it when there's a place that doesn't allow preaching.

Ah, yes. Christianity. The misunderstood minority, always persecuted. They never can catch a break, can they? I mean, after all, they control the conversation pretty much everywhere, almost all Holidays are Christian, churches are everywhere, and pretty much evey single ex-WCG blog has been taken over by Christians... but MY BLOG is going to be the death of Christianity because it doesn't allow preaching!

Sorry, having a hard time mustering any sympathy.

Byker Bob said....,"You guys seem to love to call ...

2008-11-18T17:12:00.000+13:00

Byker Bob said....,

"You guys seem to love to call believers hypocrites, and then you do something so grossly hypocritical that it's nearly unimaginable. You silence their response. If that is intellectual, leave me out. One of the posters here was right when he or she said that censorship is more obscene than the F word."

BB, you are absolutely on target. Oh, and by the way, they haven't hurt me. I am doing just fine!

My resonse to Richard, PH, and Paul Ray is very simple. If you don't like my posts, fine. No one ever forces you to read them.

I get so sick of binary thinking. Can't some of y...

2008-11-18T15:07:00.000+13:00

I get so sick of binary thinking. Can't some of you even read??? I was very careful to point out that I do *NOT* accept everything Josh McDowell has to say as being gospel truth. But, that is also not to say that every single word, every excerpt the man has made from other references is 100% false, either. What book do any of you know of that is 100% true? Webster's Dictionary? The Telephone Book? Judas Priest!

And, by the way, Aggie, setting up a protected website where dissent is censored, redacted, or truncated and then having the very people who have created such an environment insist on exercising their own right to dissent on all of the other sites is both hypocritical, and two faced. You guys seem to love to call believers hypocrites, and then you you do something so grossly hypocritical that it's nearly unimaginable. You silence their response. If that is intellectual, leave me out. One of the posters here was right when he or she said that censorship is more obscene than the F word.

As for J's comments, yes I see myself in them. Originally, when I read his post, I felt that his comments might have even been partially in response to some of my comments in his previous entry on the blog. It seemed that he was expanding on them.

I'm not going to leave you with any religious metaphors regarding ISA, because you gloat over them and wear them as a badge. You've got your walk, and I've got mine. I refuse to be your next Tom, Bill, Robert, Larry, or Velvet Rose.

BB

Purple Hymnal: points noted. Thank you.I am a beli...

2008-11-18T14:56:00.000+13:00

Purple Hymnal: points noted. Thank you.
I am a believer who most definitely has surveyed the whole buffet table and have made my choice.
I know of Cog-people who are too afraid to even come out from under the table, let alone make a truly free choice. Both believers and non-believers of Christianity can feel frustrated when meeting up with that sort of fear.
Anyway, it seems to me that the comments pages are less about "sharing the WCG experience" and more about confrontation, so I'll probably just lurk and leave the jousting for those who have the stomach for it. Cheers.

"I know it's frustrating being an atheist because ...

2008-11-18T11:00:00.000+13:00

"I know it's frustrating being an atheist because you can't prove God doesn't exist."

Condescending, supercilious, sneering. And yet you call US hypocrites, Bob.

Didn't you see anything of yourself in "J"'s post where he came clean about how he realized his Armstrongist background was still infecting his preaching?

Unlike "J", you refuse to acknowledge that ---- and you refuse to quit preaching. According to what you've said though, you probably preached just as much when you were an agnostic.

"I know it's frustrating being an atheist because ...

2008-11-18T09:55:00.000+13:00

"I know it's frustrating being an atheist because you can't prove God doesn't exist."

No more frustrating than being an aleprechaunist, or an aunicornist, or an aGreatPumpkinist. All of which describes you, if I am not mistaken. Of course, the only difference being that our entire culture is not drenched in belief in leprechauns, unicorns, or the Great Pumpkin. Our parents don't believe in unicorns and there is not a social framework in place which promotes belief in the Great Pumokin. For if there was, trust me on this Bob, you would be a stout believer in all of them, and would defend them just as you do Jehovah, using the same arguments and the same subjective experiences. You would scratch your head and wonder why we aleprechaunists just can't want to see what is so plain to you.

Just to put in perspective.

Paul Ray

Oh no ! Not the DREADFUL Josh McDowell - Apologist...

2008-11-18T07:48:00.000+13:00

Oh no ! Not the DREADFUL Josh McDowell - Apologist for the Christian-Right Hillbillies.

Could it get any more pathetic ?

Humphries on McDowell:
'The supposed 'evidence' of Jesus's existence can fill many pages. The $multi-billion industry of religion quite predictably has its lionized defenders of the Faith. Two favourites of the Born Again are pastor Lee Strobel –The Case For Christ – and minister Josh McDowell – Evidence that Demands a Verdict. Neither pretends to a scientific impartiality. Beyond a self-claimed 'hard-nosed objectivity' they make an avowedly partisan case for their evangelist cause. But for all the fulsome praise heaped upon contemporary Apologists by a grateful Christ Incorporated the evidence of their case collapses under scrutiny. The sophistry and flimflam deceive only the gullible and the uninformed – but, then, that is the essence of religion.

The Apologists have no store of unknown Jesus artifacts, no cache of Jesus's secret memoirs– though they do have shrewd allies in the relic-fabrication industry, so this may change! Rather, their circus tent is filled with nothing more substantial than subterfuge and suspect logic. What holds it all together is that universal super glue – Faith.

The parade of flimflam and clownish knockabout would be a cause for merriment and laughter were it not for the sobering thought that this is as 'rational' as some Christians get. Heaven help us if they were ever to take over the government.

In the prelude to the Dark Ages the original Christian Apologists engaged in a similar pseudo-rational debate with the Greek philosophers, who at first ignored the Christians and subsequently lampooned them as fools. But within three generations the fanatics of Christ had taken over the Roman Empire and the laughing stopped.'

Read more: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/circus.html

Byker Bob said...I know it's frustrating being an ...

2008-11-18T05:39:00.000+13:00

Byker Bob said...

I know it's frustrating being an atheist because you can't prove God doesn't exist. All you can do is ask some rhetorical questions and hope to create reasonable doubt in the minds of believers.

I know it's frustrating being a theist because you can't prove God does exist. All you can do is make some assumptions and assertions and hope to erase the reasonable doubt in the minds of unbelievers.

You've been told about McDowell's lousy scholarshi...

2008-11-17T22:56:00.000+13:00

You've been told about McDowell's lousy scholarship on AW before, Bob, why are you still promoting it?

So much for being "intellectual".

M&Ms:I first became aware of the Caesar vs. Bi...

2008-11-17T19:33:00.000+13:00

M&Ms:

I first became aware of the Caesar vs. Bible manuscript comparison through Josh McDowell, an author whom I read, but whose opinions I don't necessarily always take as gospel. I never heard of Humphries, and still have no idea who he, or she is. He sure seems important to you, though.

I assume from your statements that you believe that Julius Caesar bears more than a faint resemblance to his pictures and busts. I believe them to be probably just as accurate as the pictures purported to be of Jesus Christ.

Glad you're having fun, and I hope you did a bit of research on those names I supplied. I know it's frustrating being an atheist because you can't prove God doesn't exist. All you can do is ask some rhetorical questions and hope to create reasonable doubt in the minds of believers. Bet you wish you could do some abiogenesis parlor tricks in your bathtub, or explain the existence of radioactive materials!

Smile! You-know-who loves you.

BB

Bible Biker Bob said:"..you accuse me of "twisting...

2008-11-17T15:38:00.000+13:00

Bible Biker Bob said:
"..you accuse me of "twisting" Humphries, a source that I was not even quoting.."

No, you weren't quoting it, you were MISQUOTING it. This brilliant rationalist challenge has appeared on AW previously; I suggest you weren't content to take on Humphries as originally presented: The documentation for Julius Caesar vs the historically undocumented "Jesus". Instead, your statement is scatterbrained (Caesar vs the entire contradictory mess called the Bible)

Byble Byker Bob said:"..you don't have pictures of...

2008-11-17T15:20:00.000+13:00

Byble Byker Bob said:
"..you don't have pictures of His human representation, since that would violate one of His Ten Commandments."

Insane brain-damaged Bible Thumper reasoning! Even the Byble says your Jeebers had more enemies than friends;what's to stop some of these giving us a picture of him - like they did for Julius Caesar for instance ?

Dr Bob answers our questionsYou may have noticed t...

2008-11-17T12:08:00.000+13:00

Dr Bob answers our questions

You may have noticed the COGwriter has responded to our Obama's origin and Canon fodder questions. Obviously an avid reader of scholarly blogs...

"I want to tap into what takes our understanding t...

2008-11-17T10:15:00.000+13:00

"I want to tap into what takes our understanding to the next level, going beyond what man can know and understand."

I can't help but view this as trying to dress up belief in imaginary beings with the intellectual pursuit of knowledge.

Paul Ray

"I want to tap into what takes our understanding t...

2008-11-17T09:51:00.000+13:00

"I want to tap into what takes our understanding to the next level, going beyond what man can know and understand."

OK that's just as ridiculous as the "not by human reasoning" schtick. You CAN'T "go beyond what man can know and understand", because you're still a man Bob! And don't give me that crap about there being an extra-special Secret Crispy God Soul inside your head just because you now believe that a man lived and died long ago in Jerusalem.

After all, CoG members believe the same thing, so why don't they have Speshul Sekrit God Soul inside their heads? And if we're all fundamentally the same, as human beings, how come atheists and agnostics don't have this Speshul Sekrit God Soul, unless and until they agree to things which are patently untrue?

If you just opened your eyes and looked around you, "what man can know and understand" should fulfill much more than the one lifetime per customer that we've all got. Speshul Sekrit God Soul nobody can see, measure, nor prove, not included.

"Corky, and other non-believers here – I often won...

2008-11-17T09:42:00.000+13:00

"Corky, and other non-believers here – I often wonder, are your contributions intended mainly to support and bolster one another, or do you hope that one day you might assist a believer to lose faith altogether?"

I'm not Corky, but I'll field this one: I only want assist people to learn true freedom of thought, which religion (especially mainstream Christianity) restricts, limits, and holds captive, to the point where its believers are truly asleep, dreaming gently of a literalized eschaton that was never intended by the original authors of the books in the modern-day Christian canon.

If (and I do mean IF) a believer "leaves the faith" because of something I or the other non-Christians here have posted (I notice you didn't ask the question of what would happen if someone converted to Catholicism because of Jared or Darren, or converted to Judaism because of Smilin' Jack Sprat), it will be the believer's choice to do so.

The only problem the Christians have with us is we aren't limiting peoples' food choices at the buffet: I try and make very clear that there is a vast panorama of knowledge and scholarship and comparative religion study available to people, if only they would just have the courage to look.

Whatever they do with the information they find, well that's between themselves and whatever god they have created.