Comments on Ambassador Watch: Donor's Bill of Rights

You all know what I think: Persecution isn't perse...

2008-01-07T15:55:00.000+13:00

You all know what I think: Persecution isn't persecution until it becomes a martyrdom. And just to be clear, a martyr isn't a martyr until they're dead.

Tom who?Dennis

2008-01-07T15:05:00.000+13:00

Tom who?

Dennis

I DECLARE A "FAST" of "TOM"Im convinced that Tom a...

2008-01-07T14:53:00.000+13:00

I DECLARE A "FAST" of "TOM"

Im convinced that Tom actually loves getting dumped on here.

It gives him strokes and attention and a sense of "Im being persecuted for righteousness sake".

I believe that if we TOTALLY IGNORE HIM that he will lose interest.

So, start today, no matter how idiotic Tom is, DO NOT RESPOND AND ACT LIKE HE IS NEVER READ!

Bill Lussenheide, Menifee, CA USA

I knew a of "sure we'll keep the sabbath" tribe w...

2008-01-07T12:40:00.000+13:00

I knew a of "sure we'll keep the sabbath" tribe who had no food. So we sent them fish. But then they had no shoes, so we sent them shoes, but we noticed they had no feet...no wait, I'm getting confused..Anyway, so we sent them fishing poles to learn to fish and they sold the poles. Then we found out they met on Sunday with the Mormons and on Saturday with the SDA's. So we told the brethren a tribe of holy day keepers got in touch with US and we went to visit them. Over 144,000 shifted over to UCG.

They told us they were hungry and had no feet, so we sent them poles, but no shoes, which they sold to Dave Pack because they had the "send it in" sermon. So we said, "screw it" and had a district family weekend in Louisville and good time was had by all

Hi there!Have any of you received spam e-mail from...

2008-01-07T12:16:00.000+13:00

Hi there!

Have any of you received spam e-mail from Nigeria lately? Most of us have and by this time either have it blocked, delete it or otherwise ignore it.

It may surprise some of those here, but there are some of the smaller Churches of God which do not have paid ministers, nor is any of the money pocketed. Instead, the money goes into publishing the gospel [according to Herb] in various ways, whether by slick full color magazines, TV programs or Internet Websites.

But behind the scenes, there is somewhat a lack of accountability for the money that goes certain places. It develops that for some CoGs, up to 95% or more of the money contributed to the church ends up going to one group or other in Africa, where there is absolutely no accountability of how the money is spent.

Some of us are painfully aware that the leaders of the Churches of God, though they might be sincere, are being ripped off and the money is going to con men, no less certainly than if it had been sent as a response to a spam e-mail from Nigeria.

Some of us are aware that some groups have caught on: If you but pretend you keep the Sabbath and Holydays [with whatever calendar your sponsoring CoG in the US supports], you get money. One group actually had three different CoGs giving them money without the other two CoGs knowing about it -- and at least in two cases with two different "tribes", the Holydays that were supposedly kept by the group were at different times, ranging from two days up to a month.

Moreover, some of the small groups sigh and cry that they can't give more to these "brethren" and have sent money to them so they could buy Bibles, or shipped the Bibles overseas themselves. We know what happens to any publication from a CoG in the United States when it falls into the hands of those in third world countries: The recipients sell it for the money. Those who have more money will buy almost anything, particularly Bibles, but Plain Truths, Good Newses, Tomorrow's World is also good for a few bucks.

If we want accountability amongst the Churches of God [and face it, it's never going to happen], then the CoGs must hold those they give the money they receive accountable too, so the "Lord's money" is not misspent.

Stop laughing! Stop! Stop, I say!

In addition, if you review my posts, you will find...

2008-01-07T11:55:00.000+13:00

In addition, if you review my posts, you will find that I have not abuse anyone.

Save for calling them cowards and having deficient vocabulary (one I know who was tested to be in the 99% percentile in the United States -- far above at least one poster here) among other things.

A would certainly call that a liar and a deceiver, but then, we can't call people names here.

Still, what they have to say is of very little concern to me, for all my enemies are dead or dying!

Vengeance is mine, saith the Tom. Delighted in that is he? Two Proverbs spring to mind: the one about how if your ways please the Lord, even your enemies will be at peace with you. I guess death would satisfy that one. The other is about taking delight in the wicked being punished and the Lord withholding the punishment because you were so happy with the treatment.

I do believe that we are dealing with quite a sick, vengeful, dysfunctional person here. Just a slight suspicion....

No one seems to have addressed the core reason why cultmeisters found cults. It's all about freedom. The freedom to enforce your own crazy and silly ideas on others. Herbert Armstrong used to take such delight [as mentioned in his autobiography] about how he made someone "eat their words". He was a small and petty man full of vengeance, wanting revenge upon those who looked down on him. The best revenge he got was being chancellor of a college without even going past the eighth grade. He was often mean spirited and demeaning to those who did not agree with him. He had a very high quotient in the "pride of life" department as well as the lust of the eyes. It does appear that he was a hero to Tom and Tom is following in his footsteps -- footsteps where angels fear to tread: Even Michael the archangel dare not bring railing accusation against Satan but said, "The Lord rebuke you". Perhaps Tom should consider this....

Tom Mahon said........what they have to say is of ...

2008-01-07T10:33:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon said....

....what they have to say is of very little concern to me, for all my enemies are dead or dying!

At your hands? People die who don't agree with you? Yikes. I hope Scotland Yard pays you a visit.

Or are you like that weird little kid in that Twilight Zone episode that scares the entire town into submission because he can will people to die?

What a hellacious and rather remarkable "Christian" outlook! I don't recall seeing that one in the beatitudes.

The Buddhists have a saying about enemies that really irritate us, they bother us because they reflect something about ourselves. In that sense, they can often be instructive. But I doubt anyone brought up in the disfellowship the disagreeing one mindset could even begin to grasp that.

Job 33:14 NIV

For God does speak—now one way, [ and then] another — though man may not perceive it....

...and sometimes it can from even the cheeks of an ass!

If you're the same Tom Mahon of "Vessels of Mercy"...

2008-01-07T09:17:00.000+13:00

If you're the same Tom Mahon of "Vessels of Mercy" you need to change the title of your blog or pray that someday God will call things that aren't as though they are, but they aren't, but we can hope.

Amen
DD

Tom: Here's a little teaching of the Bible I have...

2008-01-07T08:53:00.000+13:00

Tom: Here's a little teaching of the Bible I have held my ignorance at bay with...

"You have heard that it was said, " You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy." (4) But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. For if you love those who love you, what reward to you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? (5) And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles (6) do the same? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

Now this may be the ignorant part, and I could be wrong, but I think it says after this...

"but if you can't and it doesn't work for YOU, then shall I the Eternal, smite dead thine enemies or sicken them unto death over time, times and half a time....sooz you may feel special.."

I think that's in there somewhere..

Dennis

PS Tom: If you really understood the depth of Jes...

2008-01-07T08:38:00.000+13:00

PS Tom: If you really understood the depth of Jesus, you would have no enemies. Only those you had to put a little more effort into loving. You statement is assinine in the extreme concerning them either being dead or dying.
Dennis

"However, it is quite bewildering how a former min...

2008-01-07T08:16:00.000+13:00

"However, it is quite bewildering how a former minister can be so ignorant of the teachings of the bible"

Only to you. Don't kid yourself, I know all you know, plus what you filter out in your reading.

I'm very content with the kind of Pastor I was in WCG with no string of regrets over giving the party line when it hurt people more than helped them on many topics. I came to WCG from a Liberal Dutch and Presbyterian background which proved to have provided me with some common sense not found by those that grew up in WCG and went on to be ministers who let others do all their thinking for them.

"To be played in all the churches" was an option to me, not an edict since I had to deal with all the lousy attitudes generated by second rate pep rallys via tape to keep the locals thinking of HQ once in awhile. My call and no regrets in hindsite.

You're temperament here on AW indicates to me that you would have been the kind of minister we had all grown to hate see coming and the kind I always prayed would never replace me and undo all I done for the people as their pastor.

After I left an area it was not uncommon to field months of calls from my previous location asking me to help them with the fool who came in and had a heart of stone and a forehead of flint with my way or the highway as his theme song. I suspect you would engender that type of reaction with your own way of defending what you think you need to defend.

"Still, what they have to say is of very little concern to me, for all my enemies are dead or dying!"

This comment alone would indicate to any psychologist some rather troubling aspects to your self image. Anyone ever said that to me in a counseling session and A. no you might need to not attend for the sake and safety of the church for now, and B. I'd like to see you talk to a professional about that concept in your mind. I'd also expect whatever excuse not to you just passed through your own mind when you just read this.

Either that or you really are Dave Pack who has made similar statements about those that question him. However, since the death of his wife, I am not sure he would say that again.

Some are capable of having bowels of tender mercy but others only bowels. If I had to guess....

PS any annonminity of mine is a google problem and occasionally I fail to put my initials at the end of a posting. I don't avoid anything.

Dennis

When it comes to these cults......there's no donor...

2008-01-07T07:21:00.000+13:00

When it comes to these cults......there's no donors, only enablers.

I mean if you don't look at it all for what it really is and take back your own personal God given power, and unplug the Pastard-ego-machine then God help you.

DennisDiehl said...>>>Behold...You seemed to have ...

2008-01-07T07:11:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl said...

>>>Behold...You seemed to have missed a previous posting outlining just how much of a braggart the Apostle Paul was and how Great a humble Apostle compared to them all he declared himself to be.<<<

In fact I didn't miss it. I read the whole post with astonishment, but I didn't know that you wrote it using your anonymity.

However, it is quite bewildering how a former minister can be so ignorant of the teachings of the bible. But I suppose you fall into the category of those who didn't come through the door, which is Christ, but climbed up some other way into the sheepfold. And are therefore described by Jesus as, "A thief and a robber." Which means you had the title, minister, but not the substance. Hence your ignorance.

>>>Actually Tom, while you are welcome here for whatever you personally get from being here, you contribute little of worth to any discussion save for your own brand of self promotion at the expense of others.<<<

I believe Gavin is the moderator of this Blog, and though he probably, vehemently disagree with everything I say, he never said I was wasn't welcome.

In addition, if you review my posts, you will find that I have not abuse anyone. I have been very critical of the inane or absurd opinions of almost everyone here. But I have not accused anyone of being self righteous, I have not called anyone a bigot, a jackass, a moron or a mud slinger, etc., etc.. But I have been called all these things by various people here. But I am not complaining or offended, you might be surprised to learn!

Now if I had joined this forum, spewing out venom against Mr. Armstrong, by referring to him as, Herbie or Harmstrong, I no doubt would treated with courtesy and respect. And if I had gone on to believe and disseminate the gossip and rumour that he was guilty of incest and financial impropriety, I would have been inducted into The Painful Truth hall of fame, which is reserved for those who hate Mr. Armstrong with a perfect hatred.

>>>Those who know you note that indeed, you have not changed over the years and do enjoy a similar reputation wherever you go.<<<

No doubt these are another anonymous group of cowards, who have email you with comments about me. If I was a gambling man, I would bet that none of them have the courage to openly post any comments about me here and sign their name to it! Whereas, if I had anything say about them, I would not be afraid to say it publicly, for it would be the truth. Still, what they have to say is of very little concern to me, for all my enemies are dead or dying!

"Donors only have the right to pay the bill."Well ...

2008-01-07T06:18:00.000+13:00

"Donors only have the right to pay the bill."

Well the let's drop all this stuff about "doh"ners not having rights. You just named one! :)

"Donors only have the right to pay the bill."Well ...

2008-01-07T06:17:00.000+13:00

"Donors only have the right to pay the bill."

Well the let's drop all this stuff about "doh"ners not having rights. You just named one! :)

The rumor is that UCG closed on the Texas property...

2008-01-07T06:11:00.000+13:00

The rumor is that UCG closed on the Texas property. Most of the tithe slaves are against the purchase.

The Texas property will become the "Donors Bill and Burden."

Donors only have the right to pay the bill.

I Know this is long as it's from my article The Ch...

2008-01-07T03:05:00.000+13:00

I Know this is long as it's from my article The Church Members Basic Bill of Rights written awhile back.

Dennis Diehl

The following are basic human, religious and spiritual rights any person has as a member of any and all religious organizations or church congregations.

You have the right to expect the church to keep your personal contributions private and should be able to expect that any who deal with such things for accounting purposes will do the same.

You have the right to expect that your membership in any church or congregation is not contingent on how much you give or do not give.

You should also expect that jobs, positions, opportunities or offices are not given based on the amount anyone gives to the church.

You have the right to say I can only give this even if it is not a tithe of your income gross or net.

You have the right not to be spiritually judged or have your loyalty or sincerity questioned based on what you are able or unable to give financially to the church.

You have the right to ask a Pastor if he checks tithes and offereings for any of the above reasons before giving to a church.

You have the right to say “I'm tired and won't be there, “ to any and all activities, plays, fundraisers, studies, seminars, prayer groups, rehearsals, practices and sermons.

You have the right to say “I don't care about that.”

You have the right to question the advice, counsel or sermon of any minister, elder, deacon or any other person in authority.

You have the right to question authority and to still expect to be allowed to attend your church.

You have the right to question a minister who declares himself one or both of the Two Witnesses of Revelation, a Prophet, the Supreme Watcher of Mankind for God, The Only True Apostle in this Age and any other title or position he can come up with to impress you as to why you need to support him.

You have the right to suggest a pastor get spiritual or psychological help should the need arise.

You have the right tell him that the congregation is noticing a trend here.

You have the right to ask why the church believes what it does when the Bible might say otherwise, or why the Bible says something that the church practices that seems scary, weird, inappropriate for this time, out of date or controlling.

You have the right to notice that ministers often quote scriptures out of context or fail to enforce or address the rest of the story that does not agree with the point they are trying to make.

You have the right to ask all the “how can that be,” “how could that happen,” “why does it say this here and that there,” questions you can come up and expect an intelligent answer. If you are told that you are using human reasoning, ask the pastor what kind of reasoning he uses. If he says “God's,” find another church.

You have the right to not want elders, deacons or your friends accompanying the minister on visits to your home to talk to you.

You have the right to discuss or not discuss your life with the minister as you see fit.

You have the right to expect absolute confidentiality and for your story not to show up in the sermon next week, even though “I won't say the name.”

You have a right to be called ahead of time when the pastor wants to ask about stopping over.

You have the right, when he calls to say, “I'm tired,” “I'm busy,” “No, but I appreciate the call,” without repercussions.

You have the right to keep a dirty home, grass not mowed perfectly, an older car, red in color and kids that don't say “yes sir, nice to see you sir,” in just the right way.

You have the right to watch and read what you wish even if the pastor just got done bashing that particular program, movie or book from the pulpit in his sermon on “Demons in Your Home—Six Ways to Assure Your Eternal Death.”

You have the right to ask the pastor not to call on you at work, even if you own the business.

You have the right to say, “I can't afford to take you to lunch.” “I can't afford to give you free wood or brick.” “I can't afford to fix your house up free,” “I can't fix all your teeth,” to your pastor should he expect professional courtesies, even if he offers to do your funeral free.

You have a right to expect free use of your church for weddings and funerals.

You have the right to expect these usages are not dependent on you, your parents or children living a sinless life six months prior to the date of the event.

You have the right not to answer questions your pastor may ask you or your children about your sexual practices. If he insists, then insist that you all share together.

You have the right to not let the pastor inform you as to who you can and cannot date or marry.

You have the right to enjoy your sexuality free of church or pastoral approval. Something that is wrong for the pastor is not necessarily wrong for you in how you express yourself to your partner. There is no Bible prohibition against....well you know. And if there were, you'd have the right to disagree with that too.

You have the right to not share which or if you are taking medications of any sort with the pastor.

You have the right to take such medication and not be judged as having a lack of faith or trust in God to heal you.

You have the right to seek professional help without informing your Pastor of the nature of the help and you have the right to not be helped solely by the pastor under threat of repercussions.

You have the right to insist the pastor get professional help should the need arise and the man is causing more harm than good.

You have the right to remind him that God does not directly speak to him nor express His will only through the mind of the pastor and that makes you uncomfortable if he thinks that is so.

You have the right to be wrong about a many things.

You have the right to believe you are correct about many things without repercussions.

You have the right not to care about everything that others think you must care about to be a good Christian.

You have the right to tell the pastor he is wrong, mistaken or exaggerating.

You have the right to dress as you wish, wear the jewelry you wish and make up you wish or not wish without being labeled a whore or a goody goody.

You have the right to feel that dressing as if it was still 1957 and only watching Disney Movies or How the West Was Won as proof of your pureness is baloney.

You have the right to not be told that the best times for entertainment, movies and TV was when the Pastor was a boy. You have the right to like the food he does not like and to not like the foods he does.

You have the right to like the schools he doesn't and not like the ones he does.

You have the right not to bear your soul to the ministers wife.

You have the right to like or not like, agree or not agree with the ministers wife.

You have the right to not view the world through the pastor's eyes morally or politically.

You have the right to hate the war while he believes the war in Iraq is God's will and thinks it's all in the Bible.

You have the right to expect him to speak clearly where he thinks the Bible speaks for us today and to walk slowly and drink cool water where it doesn't.

You have the right to tell the pastor that that is his opinion and not necessarily the only true opinion on earth.

You have the right for you, your children, your partner and your friends to be themselves.

These are but a few of the rights any member of any Church, congregation or religious organization has.

In short, you have the right to not be required to check your brains, your insights, your perspectives and your free will at the door to be welcome and a member of any church.

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/?expert=Dennis_Diehl

I still fault the Bible itself for it's ability to...

2008-01-07T02:54:00.000+13:00

I still fault the Bible itself for it's ability to be used by anyone, sincerely or insincerely so, to extract money for any kind of God work one can imagine.

It promises if you give, you get the windows of heaven opened. It promises, whatever you ask in my name, I will give it. It promises, protection in bad time, It promotes specialness of some over others.

These and hundreds of other Biblical concepts can be used to extract money, properties, resources, loyalty and compliance and install fear guilt and shame for control. Some do it sincerely because "it's the Bible" while others use the book to get what they want. It's all kinda sick.

You can motivate, correct, strike fear into, guilt, shame and control people with a 1000 bible stories and "their lesson for us today." It's all in the book.

Think how much better a world it might be if we had NO Bible to promote everything from Taliban Evangelicalism to One man cults who are God's chosen few.

Jesus evidently got to be his authentic self. The Apostles did, Paul certainly did...how unique a thought that everyone was entitled to be their true authentic self without religious expectations from an archaic book that has been edited, redacted, full of additions and deletions and whether we see it or not, is not one coherent story of salvation from Genesis to Revelation.

The Polytheistic God of Genesis is not the one we end up with as the gods evolve thru the text into the NT that's for sure.

And so the sincere and the insincere use the book to whatver ends they imagine.

There is abook about living one year by the Bible. How about one year without it. Two? Five? A whole new way of thining and being might open up.

There is one sure way that you can know exactly ho...

2008-01-07T02:31:00.000+13:00

There is one sure way that you can know exactly how how the money you give to charity is spent. Take complete control of your giving. Don't give a penny to any religious institution. Or even any none religious charity. Become your own charity. Than you have complete control. I am not a religious person but for those who are dosn't scripture say,"pure religion is giving to the widows and orphans in their affliction" . We don't need to give to any institution to do that.

Can't buy in to this one.Donors to churches have n...

2008-01-06T23:44:00.000+13:00

Can't buy in to this one.

Donors to churches have no rights. They have the right to walk away, which, when exercised, gives them more of a voice than they care to realize.

Remember the term? "Herbert W. Armstrong, A Corporation Sole."

In one legal maneuver, the truth came to the forefront.

Well-intentioned though we may have been, we should have realized then and there how blatantly we'd been had.

Blame it on Rader, or his alleged Svengali-like qualities, if you want. But somebody had to green-light it.

And the money rolled in. What saps we were.

2008-01-06T20:49:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

The leadership of these churches has a vested inte...

2008-01-06T20:37:00.000+13:00

The leadership of these churches has a vested interest in having the "lowly" members believe that they are quite deep-down-despicable, and full-o-sin. Heck, they are even taught that they can't trust their own minds.

What could possibly be of help in such a dire situation?

Oh, yeah, THE LEADERSHIP TO THE RESCUE!
It's an age old sales trick: Convince someone that he is in need, then have the handy dandy product to fill that created need. Recruitment.

THE LEADERSHIP are ostensibly "anointed and inspired by God", and tell the flock how to act and which thoughts are ok to think.

Once the Leaders can get members to believe that, the financial dividends are guaranteed.
For the leaders, that is.
Classic dividend-reaping mind control.

Of course, hooks are planted making it hard to think of leaving. Retention.

In order to not stir the psychological hornet's nest, and since hooks are engineered to go in and be hard to pull out, one tends to sink into the belief system further(and accept the cult's nutty ideas).

"Holding fast" a cult member might accept as truth such a nutty idea as the one that for UCG, their buying a property near Denton, Texas, or having a little exposure via an anti-Christmas article is evidence of doing a MIGHTY WORK and fulfilling the prophecy of Isaiah 29:14.
(as is shown here .)

Oh and by the way, these tactics are all too common in some businesses, too, and that trend is on the rise.
Take Amway/Quixtar, for example.
I remember reading on the Merchants of Deception website, and clicking on audio links of Amway/Quixtar leaders quoting Bible verses and mentioning(in a very Dave Pack-like fashion) how terrible things have happened to all those that criticized them.

Pastard came from The Painful Truth.Scoundrel Gene...

2008-01-06T18:06:00.000+13:00

Pastard came from The Painful Truth.

Scoundrel General came from another source.

Bottom line is, how do we know that God is working...

2008-01-06T18:05:00.000+13:00

Bottom line is, how do we know that God is working through a particular minister or "apostle"? It'd be nice if one could plainly tell that the witness of God was somehow behind these individuals, as is reported about the holy men in the Bible. But, as an example, if you asked a member of RCG how they knew that "Mr." Pack was an apostle, they'd probably just say, "Oh, Mr. Pack told us so!"

It's just all so silly, and yet people base their financial decisions and family's security on the flimsiest of "evidence". Hey, at least Simon Magus performed magic tricks!

I think Dennis Diehl has used "pastard" several ti...

2008-01-06T16:19:00.000+13:00

I think Dennis Diehl has used "pastard" several times in his writings. It is a wonderful term (but does not apply to Dennis, IMHO).

Another of my favorites is "Herbvert W. Armstong" which originated on the Ekklesia group several years ago.