Comments on Ambassador Watch: The Way It Was

Larry, if our responses are always so predictable ...

2009-04-03T03:31:00.000+13:00

Larry, if our responses are always so predictable and exactly what you expected (which, of course, fundamentalists almost always end up saying when they are stymied by good questions), then why aren't you ever able to formulate an intelligent answer to them? Why aren't you ever able to publically refute the unbelievers? Surely your great self-proclaimed prescience should give you an advantage, don't you think?

But instead – almost without exception, on virtually every single comment you've ever written here on this website – you end up somehow EVADING and IGNORING the specific issues at hand. Just go back and review your comments. The pattern is clearly evident. Not exactly the kind of reasoning ability I would expect from “a scientist educated at a world-class university” – yet another self-proclaimed assertion you’ve consistently failed to address in specific terms, as “the Apostate Paul” pointed out in his above comment.

And yet it's precisely what we've all come to expect from the high numbers of mindless fundamentalists, living in their worlds of fantasy, who for whatever reasons, seem drawn to this website. If only objective reality would conform to the way you believe the world SHOULD be, in all your divinely inspired self-righteousness, certainty and hubris.

It seems you all come from the same cookie-cutter mold - make dogmatic, indefensible assertions about your religious beliefs, then AVOID, SHUN, IGNORE and EVADE all the tough questions and legitimate issues that such assertions naturally engender in those with even just half a brain, questions and issues you simply cannot answer.

And then, after such a clear pattern of intellectual evasion has been established by you time and time again, you have the blatant arrogance to accuse OTHERS of "ignoring the message"?

Simply unbelievable!

Larry, no one ignored your message- in fact both ...

2009-04-03T03:16:00.000+13:00

Larry, no one ignored your message- in fact both I and Leo addressed your message and exposed the faulty reasoning behind it.

I'll ask for a fifth (or sixth? seventh?) time- what is it you do? What is your degree in? Just curious.

The Apostate Paul

This is why historically, when religion has politi...

2009-04-02T16:59:00.000+13:00

This is why historically, when religion has political power, it MUST sooner or later use violence to force it’s views on others, because it can’t use logic or reason or evidence in order to persuade – it’s claims by their very nature are not verifiable, and so faith must be cruelly ENFORCED by molten lead, or the rack, or a sword, or a gun, or some other religiously-inspired form of violent coercion.

That's Xian history in a nutshell, right there!

Leonardo and Paul Ray,Sadly, your responses were e...

2009-04-02T13:42:00.000+13:00

Leonardo and Paul Ray,
Sadly, your responses were exactly what I expected. Ignore the message, and criticize the messenger. Nothing ever changes.

First of all, Larry, just to clarify, what specifi...

2009-04-02T04:46:00.000+13:00

First of all, Larry, just to clarify, what specific field of science do you work in?

And what was the exact topic of your dissertation again?

As you know, these questions have been asked many times before by other bloggers on this site, and clear, exact answers have NEVER been provided by you, only vague generalities.

Why are you so hesitant to give us your specific credentials that you boast about in such hazy terms?

Or am I to be scolded once again for actually asking for some evidence to back up and establish your repeated claims that you're a scientist?

Sorry, Larry, but your comments about my "inflated opinion of your own self-importance in the grand scheme of things" just smacks to me an awful lot of the uneducated rantings of a fundamentalist mindset that simply has no other way to respond to my inquiries, rather than of a legitimate scientist who has been educated at a world-class university, which you've claimed in the past.

Your "response" to my desire for some actual evidence for your claims is ALWAYS some version or another of "Well, God just demands blind trust! He won't give scoffers like you any evidence!!"

When will folks like you understand that this "A-curse-on-all-your houses" mentality just doesn't fly in the post-Dark Ages world of the 21st century? It may have worked when your spiritual ancestors had the ecclesiastical power to pour molten lead down the throats of non-believers, or slowly twist their arms out of their joint sockets (in the name of God, of course), but we don't live in those horrific days anymore, at least here in the western democracies.

The scene repeats itself with astounding predictability: whenever you fundamentalists are cornered by those who challenge your nutty truth claims about this, that or the other topic you so arrogantly pontificate on, and you realize your inability to provide any kind of intelligible rationale for your beliefs, you then evade the questions by lashing out in typical "ad hominem" style and start attacking the character and motives of the questioners. Can’t you see that this pathetic response gets you nowhere? Oh yes, your fellow religious fanatics cheer you on from the sidelines, but reasonable dialog is stunted, and nobody ends up actually benefiting.

No wonder your mindset always HAS, and always WILL, produce ghoulish and nightmarish societies so violently hostile to rationale inquiry and true scietific pursuits.

If you truly were a scientist, you would not respond this way. It would be your mental habit instead from years of scientific research to actually engage in a legitimate dialog, which you seem completely incapable of doing. At least you've never given us any proof whatsoever of such capacity anywhere here on this blogsite, considering your past claims of being a working scientist educated at a world-class university – your words, not mine.

And don’t you think if you really had the Holy Spirit that it would lead you to fulfil the scriptural demand to “always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you…” as it says in I Peter 3:15?

But no, instead all you can do is resort to wild assertions - anything to avoid answering my inquiries.

This is why historically, when religion has political power, it MUST sooner or later use violence to force it’s views on others, because it can’t use logic or reason or evidence in order to persuade – it’s claims by their very nature are not verifiable, and so faith must be cruelly ENFORCED by molten lead, or the rack, or a sword, or a gun, or some other religiously-inspired form of violent coercion.

And all your continued refusals to answer any of my inquiries shows is this exact dynamic in action on the personal, verbal level.

"But, I learned long ago (or maybe it was just a p...

2009-04-02T04:25:00.000+13:00

"But, I learned long ago (or maybe it was just a product of receiving the Holy Spirit) that science CANNOT answer even basic philosophical questions. One has to look beyond science and "evidence" for the answers."

What questions? And why should we expect science to answer "philosophical" questions? Do we expect to understand psychological behavior through advanced algebra? No- but this isn't a failure of science, nor is it a reason to assume that there is a supernatural realm, and this realm can only be understood through a vague and slippery "method" (ie blind faith and wishful thinking) that the "learned" of the world have willingly blinded themselves to.

Basically, it's all a self-fullfilling prophecy you've set up, replete with strawmen.

I propose that your rejection of the Farie Realm (including leprechauns) is due to your reliance on "evidence" and a confining, self-imposed humanist world view. If you would just consider that "science" isn't everything- and that there is another world around us not bound by mere "science"- then you may have the open mind required to see what is so clear. Then you could begin to understand that leprechauns do indeed exist.

The Apostate Paul

"As a scientist..."Now you aren't required to answ...

2009-04-02T04:15:00.000+13:00

"As a scientist..."

Now you aren't required to answer, but I have to ask (for the fourth time) out of simple curiousity- what exactly is it you do, Larry? What is your field of study? What is your degree in?

Holding my breath,
The Apostate Paul

Sorry Leonardo, the evidence that you seek, which ...

2009-04-01T10:39:00.000+13:00

Sorry Leonardo, the evidence that you seek, which would satisfy you, will not be forthcoming. And I think I understand why. There was a time when I was just like you. As a scientist, I tend to be extremely skeptical, which is necessary for the scientific method.

But, I learned long ago (or maybe it was just a product of receiving the Holy Spirit) that science CANNOT answer even basic philosophical questions. One has to look beyond science and "evidence" for the answers. Now, you can choose to be completely concrete (as you are), that is your perfect right. But, until you are WILLING to see the abstract, the invisible, and even the future, you never will.

I truly believe (and you can criticize me if you want) that God has perfectly valid reasons for demanding an attitude of FAITH, ie blind trust, for the folks that He is dealing with now. There is historical "evidence", if you will, to justify His method. Thousands of Israelites watched the sea's waters' part, and were miraculously delivered. But, they did not believe afterwards.

I don't know what miracle or supernatural event in your life it would take to convince you, but I personally doubt anything would. Yours and Paul Ray's posts indicate that both of you have an inflated opinion of your own self-importance in the grand scheme of things, and for that reason alone, God would not offer you what you seek.

Byker Bob wrote:"Confidential to Leonardo: How do ...

2009-04-01T04:51:00.000+13:00

Byker Bob wrote:
"Confidential to Leonardo: How do you know that God wasn't involved with NASA and the moon shot? What do you think the chances would be that there would be absolutely not a single praying believer on a team the sheer size that NASA assembled for that project?"

I never made a claim one way or the other, the point I was making is merely that Larry was waffling around on the definition of "faith" - confusing religious faith as typically understood, with a "belief" that rises above metal limitations, and accomplishes a goal others thought impossible.

Since much of NASA's work was done in the southern United States, I'm sure there probably were many Christians praying for the success of the missions, but you'd have to provide evidence that such was the case. Otherwise all you've made is a subjective assertion, and assertions don't constitute legitimate evidence or proof.

Sorry, Larry (and by extension, BB), there's the "E" word again, but unfortunately for you, that's the way the real world (and the human mind) actually functions...on empirical evidence as opposed to subjective faith.

Anon 10:55 said, "The church or the ministers are ...

2009-04-01T04:50:00.000+13:00

Anon 10:55 said,
"The church or the ministers are not to be blamed it the hardness of some people,s heart that prevented them from repenting before their maker."

EXCUSE YOU!

These minister's who were "agents" of the WCG counceled women to stay in abusive homes! Abuse is a CRIME and advising people to stay is criminal! Today, if a preacher told a women (especially with kids) to stay in the home, he could be sued (and his employer the church) and would LOSE in court. These ministers had NO BUSINESS counceling people. They were NOT qualified! If WCG or their splinters are ignorant about the law enough to "council" people, and give unlawful council, they deserve to be sued, and pay damages.

You are either an idiot are crazy!

Would YOU take serious council from someone without a degree in the field? I wouldn't.

Larry wrote:"Wow, Leonardo, you never let up, do y...

2009-04-01T04:43:00.000+13:00

Larry wrote:
"Wow, Leonardo, you never let up, do you?"

What other alternative do I have, Larry, you NEVER seem to be able to answer my questions with any kind of intelligibility.

It just seems to me you don't dialoge, or reason, you preach mere assertions, and seem upset when folks don't just gobble up your fundamentalist gibberish "hook, line and sinker."

Your responses prove my point perfectly - you look down on me for daring to ask for evidence. Imagine that - somebody makes fantastical claims, and I actually ask for some evidence before I accept them, and it's me who is the bad guy.

How terrible of me!

Still reading and catching up, here.KScribe talks ...

2009-03-31T21:07:00.000+13:00

Still reading and catching up, here.

KScribe talks about the mental illness, and Mary talks about the story at hand, alluding to the instability of those in charge.

The point I want to make is this:

Within the HWA-era WCG milieu, even formerly mentally stable individuals would act in an ill and unbalanced manner.

(And fortunately, most of those affected folks are able to lose those negative traits after leaving the church and maintaining distance from it, with the help of some time.)

Someone wrote, "To his credit, Roderick Meredith o...

2009-03-31T20:36:00.000+13:00

Someone wrote,

"To his credit, Roderick Meredith of the Living Church has mentioned in sermons that there were bad people in the old WCG who hit their wives and yet thought they would be in the kingdom of God just because they "listened to" HWA."

Well, "not to" Roderick Meredith's credit, he made fun of his first wife's cancer, laughing about it and calling it "only a skin condition"

She then died because of her condition that Rod had laughed about.

Is that any worse than if he had beat her to death?

"Prayer has made a big difference in "my" success ...

2009-03-29T06:39:00.000+13:00

"Prayer has made a big difference in "my" success rate on these projects, which occasionally involve hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment."

Horse manure, BB. There are people all over this globe who have a high success rate at challenging, even impossible tasks, all without praying to Jebus or any other imaginary being.

And I find it horrifying that your god flatly refuses to heal a single amputee, or refuses to rescue humans from rape, torture, and starvation, yet finds the time and interest to help you out at work.

And Larry, you'd better believe we are entitled to evidence. It's a sign of rationality. Of sanity.

The Apostate Paul

I know I won't get his name right, but I'll try an...

2009-03-28T21:28:00.000+13:00

I know I won't get his name right, but I'll try anyway. I liked what Deeprock Chokra had to say on the God and Satan debates on Nightline Thursday night. He said that the minute we come up with a concept of God, we are limiting Him.

Confidential to Leonardo: How do you know that God wasn't involved with NASA and the moon shot? What do you think the chances would be that there would be absolutely not a single praying believer on a team the sheer size that NASA assembled for that project?

Believers pray for guidance and help in doing their jobs. Despite many years of deep technical training and experience, I always know when I'm into something way over my head. Prayer has made a big difference in "my" success rate on these projects, which occasionally involve hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment.

BB

Wow, Leonardo, you never let up, do you?Of course,...

2009-03-28T15:00:00.000+13:00

Wow, Leonardo, you never let up, do you?
Of course, it is comparing apples to oranges. Any and all analogies to God will fall short because we are limited to the physical. I am reminded of what happened when Roosevelt wanted to counterattack Japan immediately after Pearl Harbor. He spoke with the best military minds the USA had to offer. Finally, after many hours of exasperation, FDR gave up and said, "Look gentleman, get me someone in here who actually BELIEVES we CAN do this. That's the guy I want to talk to!" They searched and ultimately found one guy. And the rest is history.

But, you seem to think that you are entitled to evidence.

I seem to recall Jesus having similar conversations with the Pharisees. His response was, "Tough, all you're getting is the sign of Jonah, and that's it." (I am paraphrasing)

And yes, we have a regular tee time at Royal Troon at midnight on Mondays with Hogan and Snead. When there is a full moon, Tiger occasionally joins us. (so he can see)

Larry wrote:"The Moon was reached, the Pyramids we...

2009-03-27T07:57:00.000+13:00

Larry wrote:
"The Moon was reached, the Pyramids were built, the Panama Canal was dug, and Masada was taken...by people who first said that those projects were "impossible", and then they did it. But to do so, they first had to change their BELIEFS."

Larry, these accomplishments were not achieved through faith, they were achieved through rational minds painstakingly observing what was required, harmonizing with such realities, plus a LOT of human "trial and error" efforts.

For instance, take the Apollo moon landings: an older cousin of mine worked for NASA in the late '60's and helped design the Saturn V launch tower. And I can assure you that such an effort had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with religious faith. There is a HUGE difference between surmounting conventional cultural beliefs and our self-imposed mental limitations, and religious faith of the sort displayed by fundamentalists such as yourself.

Recall that the "faith-filled" WCG organization once dogmatically predicted in print for all to see that God would NEVER allow man to land or walk on the moon. See a copy of the old WCG booklet "Who Will Rule Space?" for reference. You can find it out on the Internet, in all it's embarrassing arrogance.

So please stop mixing "apples and oranges" here - because these are two entirely different concepts.

Larry also wrote: "Remember, God has already tried it your way, and it didn't work out quite the way He had hoped."

Would you mind explaining exactly what you mean by this? God tried it our way? And failed?

You seem to know an awful lot about God - do you go golfing with Him on the weekends or something? If so, would you mind asking Him for me what He did to keep Himself busy for all past eternity in the vast eons before He decided to create angels, the universe, the earth and mankind?

I'd like to know, and since you seem to be a self-proclaimed expert on God and what He thinks, has planned etc., surely He'd tell you.

Or are such heights of knowledge closed to me because I actually demand extraordinary EVIDENCE before I ever again base my life upon extraordinary CLAIMS and ASSERTIONS for which no logic or evidence can be shown?

Fooled once, shame on the fundamentalist organization that I was duped by as a naive, uneducated, unquestioning teenager - but fooled twice, then shame on ME for believing in ridiculous fantasies for which no real proof whatsoever has ever been produced, and most likely never will.

ConnedNoMore said,""Heb 11:6 But without faith no ...

2009-03-27T04:11:00.000+13:00

ConnedNoMore said,
""Heb 11:6 But without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him:"

However irrational."

You are absolutely RIGHT!

And that is why it makes perfect sense for God to do it this way. What God has in store for humanity is so unbelieveable, incredible, and mind-blowing, that it will require the suspension of disbelief and "rationality", at least for the leaders.

Remember, God has already tried it your way, and it didn't work out quite the way He had hoped.

The Moon was reached, the Pyramids were built, the Panama Canal was dug, and Masada was taken...by people who first said that those projects were "impossible", and then they did it. But to do so, they first had to change their BELIEFS.

Look folks. This IS impossible. We are talking about raising the dead back to life, living forever, and exploring the universe. How much more impossible do you want to get? And that is just the beginning.

ConnedNoMore, I think the massive chasm between ra...

2009-03-27T04:08:00.000+13:00

ConnedNoMore, I think the massive chasm between rational and irrational has very little MEANING to the minds of most fundamentalists.

Ultimately, the only "defense" they are left with is to mindlessly parrot back some scripture that supports their assertion that faith is all important. In other words, to mindlessly quote the very source that is being questioned – circular reasoning being endemic within their methodology. That way, they can passively evade their responsibility to demonstrate their evidence (like science must do, for instance) and to fulfill the biblical injunction to “…always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you…” (I Peter 3:15).

To question their assumption - their faith - that the Bible is the absolute, inerrant Word of God would be like a fish questioning the water it swims and exists within. They never can quite seem to come to the place of questioning the very concept of faith itself. It's a cherished "warm and fuzzy" for them, which they don't dare subject to a rigorous rational investigation because deep down they know that faith is the only fragile cane they have to lean on with regard to the many dogmatic assertions they arrogantly proclaim, and mistake for objective knowledge.

Of course, if they tried to live that way in the course of everyday life, they wouldn't survive for very long. But somehow, when it comes to the metaphysical assertions they make about the ultimate nature of reality, they can get away with faith because the consequences aren't as immediate and as tangible as they would be if they were to literally apply such careless methodology in the here and now of daily life on this earth.

I remember once several years ago now talking to a long-time Church member, and a long-time friend, an AC graduate, and a loyal supporter of the teachings of HWA. When near the end of a long discussion of exactly WHY he believed what he did, which clearly showed he could not defend his beliefs, even to a minimal degree, all he was able to pathetically say was a weak "But what about faith? We have to live by faith."

To me this was a tragic admission, and it almost brings tears to my eyes as I write about it, because here was an otherwise articulate person whom I respected, someone who had been a loyal Church member for decades, who had graduated from AC, and yet had absolutely no idea why he believed a number of the nutty assertions so foundational to HWA's brand of fundamentalism, and thus couldn't articulate his reasons anymore than a little boy could explain his belief in Santa Claus.

They both “just believed” - and that was it.

"...and admit they believe because they WANT such ...

2009-03-27T01:57:00.000+13:00

"...and admit they believe because they WANT such things to be true, and not because there exists any kind of legitimately documented or persuasive evidence that such things actually happened."

That's an accurate definition of "faith" itself.

Paul Ray

Anonymous regurgitates:"Heb 11:6 But without faith...

2009-03-26T19:10:00.000+13:00

Anonymous regurgitates:

"Heb 11:6 But without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him:"

However irrational.

"At it's very foundation, religion is essentially ...

2009-03-26T08:12:00.000+13:00

"At it's very foundation, religion is essentially based upon subjective imagination, not on empirical evidence or sound reasoning. "

Heb 11:6 But without faith no one can please God. We must believe that God is real and that he rewards everyone who searches for him

Paul Ray wrote:"Public schools should start teachi...

2009-03-26T04:16:00.000+13:00

Paul Ray wrote:
"Public schools should start teaching children how to actually reason instead of rote memorization. Teach them critical thinking. Belief in imaginary beings will not stand long in the face of intellectual honesty."

Well, I can agree with this wholeheartedly. It all boils down to sound THINKING and INTELLECTUAL HONESTY - the greatest enemies religion ever HAS had or ever WILL have, which is why blind faith in ancient assertions about reality is an absolute requirement in being a true believer.

Just yesterday I received from a Church member (via email) video captures that were excitedly touted as being “proof” of the exodus out of Egypt (pictures of gold chariot wheels at the bottom of the Red Sea, etc.) - along with a final sentence of "God's Word once again confirmed!”

When I sent back a rebuttal documenting that such "discoveries" had long ago been proved forgeries of the pseudo-archeologist Ron Wyatt (a fundamentalist with absolutely no credentials or training in the field whatsoever), they responded that they still believe anyway, in spite of the forgeries.

It's amazing how religious folks are so eager to grasp onto supposed "evidence" of fantastical events recorded in the Bible, and then when such "amazing findings" are shown to be phony (which they eventually are, repeatedly), they still demonstrate the fact that their faith in such events is just that, blind faith, not based on any kind of legitimate historical evidence whatsoever.

I just wish that fundamentalists would be up front and honest about this, and admit they believe because they WANT such things to be true, and not because there exists any kind of legitimately documented or persuasive evidence that such things actually happened.

At it's very foundation, religion is essentially based upon subjective imagination, not on empirical evidence or sound reasoning. And in the realm of subjective imagination, ANYTHING and EVERYTHING truly IS possible, just ask any Hollywood script writer! And this is exactly the kind of world fundamentalist want to live in, and many are willing to kill for.

"And how exactly would you recommend we achieve yo...

2009-03-25T10:34:00.000+13:00

"And how exactly would you recommend we achieve your goal - mass extermination?"

No. At least not in America.

I think ridding the world of religion (and simple belief in imaginary beings) will only occur through education. It's going to take a long time. Forcing people to abandon their fairy tales will only encourage them- just think of the victim complex built in to many religions.

A start would be to create a shift, through mass media and cultural thought, that belief in imaginary beings is not something to be lauded, but frowned upon, as it should be- and is when it comes to leprechauns and Reptoids from Planet X (Jehovah and Allah are exempt for some reason).

Secondly, we educate the children. Public schools should start teaching children how to actually reason instead of rote memorization. Teach them critical thinking. Belief in imaginary beings will not stand long in the face of intellectual honesty.

And for those Sabbatards who are reading this post and thinking that this only further proves the existence of The Great Atheist Conspiracy, I can only say that it is no longer a conspiracy.

Paul Ray,
Enemy of the Church

Mr. Scribe said... "Any church that teaches tha...

2009-03-25T10:11:00.000+13:00

Mr. Scribe said...

"Any church that teaches that they alone have the secret to a happy marriage and all the answers to child rearing, should be suspect. Life is not that easy."

How ironical it is that the couple
pictured on the cover of the Australasian edition of the "Happy
Marriage" booklet did in fact get
married in the seventies, only to
have the husband murder the wife
with a hammer in 1997.

The wife was apparently in the process of leaving the WCG and her
husband and he found it necessary
to step up and 'take action'.

Having attended their marriage,
I was appalled to learn of the outcome.

ConnedNoMore